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It was in Pathfinder:
An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects.
But Starfinder is worded differently:
An initiative check is a d20 roll to which a character adds her Dexterity modifier plus any other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects.
Given the differences, I'm leaning towards "no", but I wanted to hear other people's thoughts.
I'm asking because the Encumbered condition gives you a –5 penalty on Dexterity-based checks, and it makes sense that an encumbered character would be slower to react to danger, but perhaps not so in Starfinder.
I would disagree
Initiative determines when in the combat order you act. Being encumbered wouldn't mean that you act later in the initiative count due to it imposing a dexterity check.
Think of it this way as an example to that point:
You are in an alley and you are putting a recently deceased body in a giant trash bin. You are encumbered by trying to lug this body over to the bin. A police officer walks around the corner. You are both surprised. Since no parties were aware of the other parties, no surprise round happens.
You both roll initiative. This only determines when you act, not how you act. There's no reason to think that a person lugging a body can't react quicker than someone else in this situation simply because he's lugging a body around. He could drop the body super fast and take off running. Or he could attempt to draw a weapon of some type which may require a dexterity based skill check. This check would incur the -5 penalty because of the Encumbered condition which makes sense. The person is trying to reach for a weapon while he's got a body slung over his shoulders or on his back. If he drops the body first as a free action, he would lose the encumbered condition and be able to do whatever he's going to do without the penalty.
The argument would precondition that cognitive reaction time is impaired by physical reaction capability which is a fallacious assumption.
Well, if that is the case, then why is initiative modified by your dexterity modifier?
If cognitive reaction time is all that initiative is based on, shouldn't it be using intelligence or wisdom?
Well, if that is the case, then why is initiative modified by your dexterity modifier?
If cognitive reaction time is all that initiative is based on, shouldn't it be using intelligence or wisdom?
Neither of those things has much of anything to do with reaction time. I clarified mental reaction time as the initiative order decides when you act or react to a situation.
There's tons of smart people who have terrible reaction times. There's tons of people who are very wise but have terrible reaction times. There are also a lot of people who are smart and have really fast reaction time.
Dexterity measures agility, balance, and reflexes.
In this case, initiative is part of your reflexes. Being encumbered doesn't affect how quickly you react or take action. Being encumbered can impair what you do, but not how quickly you can react to a situation.
"reflexes plural : the power of acting or responding with adequate speed" from Merriam Webster.
Dexterity measures agility, balance, and reflexes.
In this case, initiative is part of your reflexes. Being encumbered doesn't affect how quickly you react or take action. Being encumbered can impair what you do, but not how quickly you can react to a situation.
I see the point you are making and I don't completely disagree. I am just not entirely convinced.
If a person is struggling with a burdensome load, then they may see the problem and know what they want to do about the problem, but pulling it off as fast as they usually do is going to be a bit more difficult.
Especially in the more frequent case of having the heavy burden strapped to them in the form of a pack instead of having the items held in hand and easily dropped.
I think a penalty to initiative is suitable for that scenario. Not entirely sure that a -5 is the penalty I would go with though. As a GM I would certainly be open to decreasing the penalty when the overburdened condition is due to a state that is quickly remedied - such as dropping the body you are carrying.
Well, again, the penalty would apply to actions they take on their turn, but not how quickly they act compared to other people. I would, of course, do my best to unburden myself as quickly as possible but that's the cost of being encumbered.
It was in Pathfinder:
An initiative check is a d20 roll to which a character adds her Dexterity modifier plus any other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects.
I'm asking because the Encumbered condition gives you a –5 penalty on Dexterity-based checks, and it makes sense that an encumbered character would be slower to react to danger, but perhaps not so in Starfinder.
Wouldn’t Encumbered come under “other effects” at the end of the explanation of the check?
I tend to agree with Neil77.... dex based check ...so it takes the penalty
and the reason initiative is based on dex and not intelligence is because it figures out exactly when you can act which is a measure of both your mental and physical reaction speeds together. And I'm pretty sure that your mental reaction speed is more measured under dex in much the same way as some mental actions are wis or char. That being said since your initiative is a measurement of when you actually can go as opposed to when you decide to, a penalty to dex checks would logically slow you down
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Seems like a mixed bag of answers so far. I went back to see how Starfinder defines a "check", and found this:
A check is a d20 roll that may or may not be modified by your character’s statistics or another value. The most common types are skill checks and ability checks (which determine whether you successfully perform a task), and initiative checks (which determine when you act in combat).
Compared again to Pathfinder:
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
Given these differences again, I'm back to thinking that Initiative is a different type of "check" than an "ability-based check", and so wouldn't suffer the same penalties (like Encumbered).
Or, to put it another way:
Pathfinder = [ABILITY] + [d20 roll]
Starfinder = [d20 roll] + [ABILITY]
A stealth check(or other dex skill), a initiative check, and ability check are all dex based checks and all would suffer the -5 to dex based checks from being encumbered ...being a ability check isn't the crucial point here
See i’m still very much of the mind that the ability score is affected so the initiative check is too. Your ability to react faster than others has been altered.
The wording for encumbered says dex based checks. Initiative checks are by definition a check and are 90% based off dex.
Pantshandshake ...no, initiative is not a ability check, it is a dex based check because it adds in your dex modifier ...the penalty applies to all dex based checks not just ability checks
if you roll a d20 and add your dex modifier to it, it is a dex based check UNLESS it's a attack roll or saving throw ...pg 8 check lists initiative checks under checks but attacks and saves are not...(edited because I found more rules)
Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 8
A check is a d20 roll that may or may not be modified by your character’s statistics or another value. The most common types are skill checks and ability checks (which determine whether you successfully perform a task), and initiative checks (which determine when you act in combat).An initiative check is listed separately from an ability check, which means the -5 to strength and dex (which are abilities) would not apply.
Seriously, I don't know how to make it more clear that an initiative check is not the same thing as a dexterity check at this point.
I think your issue is you seem to believe Dex “based” checks are only in relation to straight Ability checks. This is the issue. Acrobatics is a Dex based Skill check, just in the same was a initiative is.
If it only applied to ability checks it would say a -5 to str and Dex ability checks.
So I guess everyone is remembering to reduce their initiative roll by the armor check penalty, too, then?
Armor check penalty applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Initiative is not a skill.
Sure, but it isn't an ability check either, it just seems like some folk decided that since dex goes into it, anything penalizing dex must come out of it.
I agree, initiative is not an ability check. Because:
Check
A check is a d20 roll that may or may not be modified by your
character’s statistics or another value. The most common types
are skill checks and ability checks (which determine whether
you successfully perform a task), and initiative checks (which
determine when you act in combat)
Initiative checks are called out separate from ability checks.
However, encumbrance says:
Encumbered
While encumbered, you reduce each of your movement speeds
by 10 feet, reduce your maximum Dexterity bonus to AC to +2,
and take a –5 penalty to Strength- and Dexterity-based checks
It says 'dexterity-based check' not 'dexterity ability check'.
Initiative for reference:
Initiative
Your character’s initiative modifier is added to her initiative checks
to determine the order in which she acts in
combat. It’s equal to her Dexterity
modifier plus modifiers from feats or
other abilities that affect initiative.
Is a ___-based check an ability check? Or is it something else. When we go to pg. 274, we see both sets of language next to each other on the chart.
Encumbered
Speeds are reduced by 10 feet, maximum Dex bonus to AC is reduced to +2, and you take a –5 penalty to Str- and Dex-based checks.Entangled
You move at half speed; you cannot run or charge; and you take a –2 penalty to AC, attack rolls, Reflex saves, initiative checks,
and Dex-based skill and ability checks.
Is is intentional on the developers part that dex-based checks are different from dex-based ability checks? I don't know the answer to that.
From what I'm reading RAW, they are different things, but a dex-based check is not defined other than being a dex-based check.
Does encumbered count against attack rolls, skills, initiative and everything else that involves adding your dex or str modifier to a d20? Maybe?
It all boils down to:
Is a dex-based check a dex-based ability check? and/or: You add dex to your initiative check, does this make it a dex-based check?
It's a check and you add dex, seems obvious to me, but the 'dex-based check' and 'dex-based ability check' being different things gives me pause.
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We've quoted the same sections three times. It just seems that people are interpreting them differently.
I'll go ahead and rule that Encumbrance doesn't affect Initiative when I GM, ask my GMs how they'll rule it, and abide by their rulings when playing at their tables.
Unless there's further clarification somewhere down the line.
Okay lets try this again because this is not a hard one... all checks that use your dex, are dex based checks ...if its listed under pg8 as a check (like initiative) its a check ..... so.. it's a dex based check ....it's does not need to be a ability check ....ability checks, dex based skill checks and initiative checks are ALL dex based checks ... ranged attack rolls and saves are not, because they are not checks
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Okay lets try this again because this is not a hard one... all checks that use your dex, are dex based checks ...if its listed under pg8 as a check (like initiative) its a check ..... so.. it's a dex based check ....it's does not need to be a ability check ....ability checks, dex based skill checks and initiative checks are ALL dex based checks ... ranged attack rolls and saves are not, because they are not checks
From this let’s says there are 3 types of dice attempts
1) checks
2) rolls
3) saves
Break down
1) ability checks, skill checks, initiative checks,
2) melee & ranged attack rolls
3) easy one, fort, will, refl
Dex based checks are everything under 1)