Ok guys, I'm looking for ways to discourage the use of Teleportation spells within my campaign. Some ideas i've come up with so far include the idea of requiring expensive components, making the spell non-combat only, only allowing its use to specific already established locations or waypoints, etc etc.
How would you discourage its use without simply banning the spell?
Yes, I know there are lots of Wards and similar magics which can be pre-loaded into an area to make it difficult to teleport into, however that is not what I'm looking for here.
He's not forbidding it, he's looking for ways to make it incredibly hard to use or extremely limited in utility.
moving continents? (thinking like the air floating land in the 'death-gate' books first book.
you need to know where your going with very high degree or your going to miss the landing...and you do NOT want to miss the landing ;)
also...
since teleportation can be a very problematic thing for governments, with lower levels ones making crime\terrorist acts easier to infiltrate and escape capture and higher level ones even allow for a blitz invasion. pretty much like how air and navel travel is regulated in our world.
smart and highly resourceful (i mean with enough resources)countries might use teleportation disabling\interfering spells\devices and rules against unauthorized use of such spells.
they might uses specifically made items (border runes etc) to ether nullify such spells in specific places (or all the land) unless the user add a password or is carrying an item (government issued to only specially trained trusted casters), or even both password and item. anyone else trying to teleport might find himself popping in a cell with magic circle against evil set in it as well (you know as precaution from any evil outsiders in the land).
also... since teleportation can be a very problematic thing for governments, with lower levels ones making crime\terrorist acts easier to infiltrate and escape capture and higher level ones even allow for a blitz invasion. pretty much like how air and navel travel is regulated in our world.
"Sir? You're going to have to come with us. Charge is 'Teleporting Without a License', a grave offense. ...in order to liven up a dull morning, we will permit you a brief opportunity to attempt to resist detainment."
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1000 coins is 20 pounds of metal (50 coins per pound in 3.xx/Pathfinder)... requiring that much silever is impossible, maybe you could use that amount to garnish a fixed teleportation circle in your home, but to carry around, it would make the spell unfeasible.
At any rate, you won't want to have it in coins, ingots are much more practical, and if you buy enough you might get a bulk discount rather than having to pay the commission of a money changer... of course, if you buy that much silver, you might get in the scope of the Silversmiths' guild who might demand dues, if you you make use of your ingots rather than just storing them...
Given that the OP has mentioned that their campaign caps at 10th level, there really isn't anything that needs doing. Casters capable of teleportation are already very rare, the best teleportation available has a roughly 25% chance of being off-site for places you aren't supposed to be. As for the idea of it being used to ferry troops, you can only bring between 3-4 people with you at a time. Hardly a threatening invasion force. As for ways of defeating it , just make the rooms different. Paper screens that are changed periodically, changing the layout to defeat the visual acuity required foor teleportation
You are correct, in another thread I'd mentioned the campaign caps at level 10 which I think I over looked mentioning in this thread.
There are a few other magic restrictions which are very significant in our home campaign however I was looking for ways that others have limited such magics in their campaigns.
As for the question of Why limit such magic in the campaign? Simple, our campaign has a much lower level of magic. Period. The campaign carries a level 10 cap and other significant restrictions on magic. The focus of the campaign thus is very focused on the idea that the party has to work together to resolve issues vs "what spell do I simply cast to by-pass this?"
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My main question is: What problem(s) are you trying to solve by limiting teleportation effects?
Here are some problems with teleportation that I have and what I've done about them...
1) "Scry-and-Fry"
If you're not familiar with the term: "Scry-and-Fry" is to use divination magic on an enemy (e.g. a crystal ball), then use that information to teleport to their location, at a time when they are unaware and unprepared. (Hopefully when the enemy is asleep, taking a bath, or otherwise caught with their pants down.)
I hate this tactic—both as a GM and as a player.
When I GM, I simply rule that scrying on an individual does not provide any information about that individual's location..
Player: I use my crystal ball to scry on Lord Deathface.
GM: [rolls dice] OK, you see Lord Deathface sitting at a table, eating a turkey leg and drinking red wine from a golden goblet.
Player: Cool! Where is he?
GM: Sitting at a table.
Player: No, I mean, where is that table?
GM: You can't tell. The part of the table you can see is ornately carved... maybe mahogany?
Player: What's around him?
GM: The magic of your cystal ball doesn't really show anything other than the person you're scrying upon: What surrounds Lord Deathface is cloudy and indistinct.
Player: Can I see any windows?
GM: No, just Lord Deathface. He now commands his servant to pour him more wine.
Player: How about the floor? Is it wood or stone?
GM:From your vantage point, you can't see the floor: It's under the table.
Player: Do I have enough information to teleport there?
GM: Not really. Your crystal ball gives you no indication of where this table might be.
If the PCs in the above example know the location of Lord Deathface's castle on a map, they might be able to teleport to outside its walls, but unless they have been inside previously, they cannot teleport within it. And they would have no idea of weather Lord Deathface is actually there.
2) Bypassing a journey or wilderness adventure
So you've got a great idea for an adventure where the PCs go on a long jourey to a fabled destination, and have thought up a bunch of interesting encounters and NPCs that they'll meet on the way. And the PCs then say, "We need to get to the Dungeon of Despiration in the Haunted Hills? Cool! I cast teleport!"
Remember that the PCs have to know where theyre going. Maybe they know where the Haunted Hills are (perhaps it's on a map), but the Haunted Hills is a BIG place, and they don't know where, exactly, the Dungeon of Desperation is.
If the PCs don't know where they're going, they really can't teleport there. If they have some information, they might be able to get close... but there's also the possibility that the description they have is fatally wrong in some way, such that if they try, they end up at a "false destination" per the spell.
3) Teleporting themselves out of a dungeon to acquire the perfect tool for the job, then teleporting back in with it.
This can be annoying as it disrupts the flow of a game, but is it really a problem? Also remember that unless they're throwing around greater teleport, there is always the risk of a teleportation mishap, sending them hundreds of miles out of their way.
And then there is a home rule I usually run with:
For teleport to work, you don't just need to know where you're going... you also need to know where you are. Not knowing where you start from increases the chance of a mishap. (I typically move down a level or two on the "familiarity" chart, depending on how in the dark the PCs are about their current location.)
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Strictly by the rules, scrying does provide enough information to attempt teleporting to a location. It is even specifically mentioned under teleportation as good enough for 'seen once' which is the lowest amount of familiarity that you can attempt a teleport with. I'm not disagreeing with a house rule, but saying by RAW its allowed.
I never claimed my home rules to be RAW. That said, I know of at least three Paizo developers who use the same rule in their games, including the Directosaur... who once said that he tried to get that line about scrying out of the spell description back in '09, but was overruled for reasons of back-compatibility.
That said, I don't spring that home rule on my players: It's in my "Haladir's Home Rules" document and I always go over it during Session Zero.
On the other hand, there is no way to teleport to a location you know about but have zero familiarity. Even if you can pinpoint exactly where it is on a map and know the exact distance that isn't good enough to give you any familiarity. You'd need to use a different spell to get there.
Oh... I let you try!
I added a line to the teleport table for my games: "Know only the destination's location on a map*":
On Target: 01-51
Off Target: 51-81
Similar Area: 81-95
Mishap: 96-00
*In this case, "On Target" means arriving 1d20 miles from the intended specific location, in a random direction.
If you knew the identity of a specific individual that happens to be at the location, you could scry them. But you can't scry locations. You can only target people with scry, and you have to have some knowledge of who you are scrying. You can't say 'someone that lives in the Dead Hills' because you aren't trying for a specific creature.
I completely agree.
Lots of other magical travel methods are fast and also bypass wilderness encounters. Shadow Walk is a very practical way of getting to dungeons in the wilderness as a high level adventurer. Trying to force the adventurers to not use such magic and walk everywhere sounds like oppressing the players for getting more powerful. Not only is it not necessary, it actually sounds like it would be discouraging to the players enjoyment for no significant benefit.
Again, I completely agree. Shadow walk is a great spell for traveling to distant areas you don't yet know about... as are overland flight, or air walk, or tree stride... or a carpet of flying, or some kind of permanent magical gate the GM chooses to provide.
And all of those methods have easy ways for the GM to make the journey interesting.
To be honest, I tend to run overland travel at the speed of plot.
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also... since teleportation can be a very problematic thing for governments, with lower levels ones making crime\terrorist acts easier to infiltrate and escape capture and higher level ones even allow for a blitz invasion. pretty much like how air and navel travel is regulated in our world."Sir? You're going to have to come with us. Charge is 'Teleporting Without a License', a grave offense. ...in order to liven up a dull morning, we will permit you a brief opportunity to attempt to resist detainment."
*teleports away*
*teleports away*also... since teleportation can be a very problematic thing for governments, with lower levels ones making crime\terrorist acts easier to infiltrate and escape capture and higher level ones even allow for a blitz invasion. pretty much like how air and navel travel is regulated in our world."Sir? You're going to have to come with us. Charge is 'Teleporting Without a License', a grave offense. ...in order to liven up a dull morning, we will permit you a brief opportunity to attempt to resist detainment."
"Oh, dear; you didn't notice the green shimmering? I'm afraid that'll be another charge, as well as 'Attempting to Flee'. --Boys! We've got a 'live' one!"
<flank><flank><flank><flank>
<grapple><grapple><grapple><grapple>
<sap><sap><sap><sap>
<click><click>
Mental inventory. It's intelligence bonus plus 1 for every 2 levels. Having a location memorized costs 1 of your mental inventory. Thus a trip into or out of a dungeon costs 2, and you cannot move the places memorized till you empty the slots by rebuilding the character. These slots are also used for, things memorized for a believable illusion, rituals, and even moral codes such as a paladin has.
Simply raise the level of any spell that allows you to teleport by 1 level. Since the campaign caps at 10th level the spell teleport is off the table. Shorter range teleport spells are still available but now require a higher level caster. Dimension Door becomes the most powerful teleport spell in the campaign and even then only available to the highest level casters. You should also eliminate the teleportation specialist. Now the earliest a character can teleport in any way is around 5th level, and even then it will require a spell from a supplement.
Strictly by the rules, scrying does provide enough information to attempt teleporting to a location. It is even specifically mentioned under teleportation as good enough for 'seen once' which is the lowest amount of familiarity that you can attempt a teleport with. I'm not disagreeing with a house rule, but saying by RAW its allowed.
Ultimate Intrigue disagrees with your assessment on RAW.
p161: “Scrying canbe enormously useful for a spy, if the circumstances all
align well for the scryer, but it isn’t particularly useful
on its own for a potential teleport. The 10-foot-radius
visual requires the target to move in order to provide a
clear idea of the layout of the destination, and the spell
doesn’t directly indicate the location. The PCs must use
contextual clues to figure this out, unless they already
know where the target is.”
Anyway, for OP: since your campaign world is already limiting magic, why not simply make any long range teleportation effects (i.e. longer than dimension door) require fixed endpoints like teleportation circles at each end? These circles can be fantastically expensive such that only a well-resources guild or city could afford one. These guilds/cities may charge usage fees and possibly have some sort of security checkpoint so they know who is entering.
This leaves teleport on the table but now you as a GM have full control over destinations. Still useful for travel, but blocks a lot of tactics that you may be trying to avoid.
If you are setting up a campaign just establish a house rule on teleportation.
Something along the lines of: 10 Minute casting time, only to locations the caster is very familiar with.
Over and done with. Teleportation magic now works differently in this campaign world.
I thank you all for your inputs on this. Some time ago my troupe and I asked this same question among ourselves and came up with some very similar answers to what have been discussed in this thread. Here are our rules on the matter:
Teleportation is limited by already established teleportation "landing pads" or teleportation portals (Tele-Portals) which are set up at major cities and wizard colleges, etc.
A "free teleport" (one which does not BEGIN at a Tele-Portal) can only go to the nearest Tele-Portal or to a Very Familiar location which the caster has spent at least a month at. These locations might be their home, their magical college where they were trained, etc. The very familiar locations are limited to only a handful of locations (3 + Int bonus? I think). Free Teleports are limited by 10 miles x level.
Magic Item: teleportation token. Single use, one way "free teleport" created by a wizard to return the user back to one of their very familiar free locations. Typically this was a rune engraved upon a ceramic tile which was broken, thus teleporting the user to the wizards chosen portal.
Teleportation which begins at a Tele-Portal can go to any of the pre-established very familiar locations within the range of the spell or to another major city with an established portal. In both cases this is limited to the level 10 casting of 1000 miles unless otherwise specifically stated by the DM for campaign plot purposes.
Tele-Portals are unique locations and as such still need to be researched in order to teleport to them. Attempting to travel to an existing portal you have never been to before may result in Spell failure with all manner of ill effects (insert random adventure locations and transdimensional rifts here!!) The easiest way around this is to pay another caster to take you there the first time.
If you do not know where you ARE you can not teleport TO another area.
There is a 10th level campaign cap, which means there are only a few mages in the campaign which can cast such spells anyway and they tend to horde this ability jealously unless called upon by kings and other such authorities. (We followed a similar ruling regarding Raise Dead spells)
On the topic of Scrying: We too took the approach that it would allow you peak in on a target, but only give general information about the surrounding area. If the target of the spell was in an area you were personally very familiar with you might recognize it. Example: if the target is your own wife and she is at home you would recognize the area but only because you were already very familiar with it to begin with.
Example:
Player> I'm going to scry on the Dragon Queen!
DM> Ok, she is outside on a high bluff over looking the sea. There is a castle and mountains in the background. Her hair is blowing in the wind.
Player> I teleport to her!
DM> Which one of your known portal locations are you going to use?
This interpretation of Teleport & Scry have REALLY stopped a lot of the Scry and Fry issues from ever happening. The surrounding area and events are given a general description but that is it. A county fair and coronation might both be described the same way as "surrounded by people". If the target was engaged in war on a battlefield it might be described as "seems to be in some sort of battle, there is a lot of commotion".
This interpretation of Teleport also limited the ability of the party to simply bypass over land adventures. In our campaign simply getting to the adventure location ("the Dark Tower!!") was 1/2 of the adventure!
Teleportation specialist are not appropriate for this campaign setting, and thus were banned to both PC & NPC as character options.
I usually run campaigns with a bored god of strength and glory watching the party. Whenever they skip battles via teleporting or resort to Scry and Fry, the God gets mad and summons an APL+2 monster at their destination, prepared to fight the party.
Man your guys' scry and fry are small time stuff compared to what I've seen
...okay. You win the contest, then.
Man your guys' scry and fry are small time stuff compared to what I've seen the people who scry and fry in the games I've been in don't even teleport to the location they scry they just either send other stuff there to do the killing for them or they do so from their pocket dimension that they have created.
That's vulnerable to a non-space leak. Both phase spiders and old ones are looking for a way into the game world. Basicly, a monster also appears somewhere they didn't want, and it's uncontrolled.
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If we're talking homebrew?
Watch any Star Trek episode in which the transporter malfunctions.
Roll from there.
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Yeoman Popnfresh had a transporter malfunction.
"He's bread, Jim."
That's vulnerable to a non-space leak. Both phase spiders and old ones are looking for a way into the game world. Basicly, a monster also appears somewhere they didn't want, and it's uncontrolled.
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As for the question of Why limit such magic in the campaign? Simple, our campaign has a much lower level of magic. Period. The campaign carries a level 10 cap and other significant restrictions on magic. The focus of the campaign thus is very focused on the idea that the party has to work together to resolve issues vs "what spell do I simply cast to by-pass this?"
I'm not sure if I follow. It seems less like your story or setting has an element that would limit teleportation or something of that sort and more like...powerful, versatile spells that can essentially be a canned solution to plot points isn't the type of thing you and your players want in your game.
At which point, I don't see why you need any in-game sort of explanation to limit teleportation or other forms of magic at all. Just tell your players "c'mon, guys. None of that nonsense".I don't come up with house rules or in-game reasons for why my settings don't have much beyond the base races and classes or the feats and spells in the core book; I just tell new players "none of that is allowed", and when they ask why, I say "because I don't like it". And I'll give them some solid thematic and mechanical reasoning to back it up, but at no point do I feel the need to justify why my setting differs from mainstream tabletop games any more than Paizo feels the need to explain why their game differs from Tolkien's "The Hobbit".
I did have a setting once where the multiverse was a bit different, and teleports were basically like hyperspace, punching a hole and zipping through an alternate dimension. Only the other dimension was filled with nasties and with any given teleport there was a distinct chance something might come back with you. The longer the teleport, the greater the chance.
I'd just give it a flat rate of failure, and make it high enough that it's truly dangerous. Add a flat 10% chance to mishap to the mishaps that already exist. This means mishap-ing probably kills you, but might not.
In 40k I believe 1-in-6 models usually died from any of these sorts of moves (though I don't know in the current edition.)
I also like the idea that things from other dimensions sometimes come with you.
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In my homebrew (set in Christopher West's Lands of Mystery from Dungeon #150), since demons and devils can teleport at will, the investigation of such magics is considered diabolism and infernalism, respectively because, so far, it is. The offending wizard is usually executed in a very public and rather unpleasant way.
Elves maintain a secret network of tree stride, but they're not sharing.
Until Zim. Zim was the first PC in the game world to research teleportation magic. His first work in the area was Zim's Door. He later refined it into Zimportation. Zim is currently the headmaster of the Blue Crater Academy in Cauldron (transplanted from the first AP, Shackled City).
Just because they're in the CRB, doesn't mean they've been developed yet. Simply say that they haven't been invented. And if a PC wants to create them? No problem. They'll just have to, literally, make a deal with a devil to do it. And I cannot see any unfortunate entanglements arising from such communication [/sarcasm].
I would add some down sides to teleportation.
First, I'd make it so that the trip through the Astral plane was disorienting. Maybe the characters are Dazed and Sickened upon arrival (Fort save negates or lessens the effect.)
Then, I'd make it so that using Scry to pinpoint the landing zone wasn't guaranteed.
Memory isn't concrete, especially when it comes to seeing something once. Unless teleported to within minutes, the image would be too fuzzy to use. This would make it so that they can't scry, regain spells and then teleport. I all has to be done within a few minutes. Say one minute per point of intelligence modifier.
If you're having issues with combat, bump the cast time to a full round action.
Scry and fry isn't a problem. By the time the players get the ability, their BBEG will have the same capability++. Let the players have some fun and get a few quick and easy wins. Then narrate a musing from the wizard over dinner along the lines of "You know guys, I can't help thinking that our enemies could scry and fry as well and if we keep doing it we are sure to attract unwanted attention. Perhaps we should lay off and be more subtle in our approach to avoid triggering their full wrath too soon". If they don't take the hint then wait until after they have scryed, gone nova and fried and returned to base before scrying and frying with the BBEGs top lieutenants against a party out of resources. A TPK will probably result. Then agree OOC that scry and fry is not done by either GM or party and reset to before the TPK battle.
Knowing you are being actively scryed doesn't stop you from being scry and fried when you're out of spells and low on HP. Unless that is you stop using them, in which case the spell has rendered the party ineffective. In this scenario either the party will eventually continue as before or there will be a showdown with the BBEG having the advantage of knowing the defence plans and choosing the time.
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@Kayerloth What you say is all true but I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. For the sake of discussion, lets assume the PCs gain scry and fry at around 9th level and the ultimate BBEG is around the level 20 mark or an equivalent , such as a powerful outsider etc. The PCs up until this point have probably at best damaged one or two of the many plans being masterminded by the BBEG and they are barely on the radar. If all of a sudden the PCs are wiping out significant branches of the organisation then a quick investigation by the BBEG's inner circle is going to reveal the culprits. At this stage the BBEG probably has around three tiers of management for want of a better term who are all more powerful than the party. A combined team picked from those tiers should not have any difficulty finding and teleporting in to the party and massively overpowering them before they destroy any more of the BBEG's plans.
Now it doesn't happen because their is a social contract between the GM and the players to keep the game fun for all involved. Scry and fry is only a problem tactic because there are no repercussions and the party can safely go nova in every encounter and then return to base. If the GM first warns and then demonstrates that he is actually holding back for the sake of fun but could actually justifiably employ far more deadly tactics then an agreement can be reached around the table not to use the tactic.
As an aside, if the party does prove to be elusive to scrying, sending Babau or some other demon or similar to wait for the party, teleport back to base when found and then return with a kill squad would work.