Ancestries are getting overhauled in 1.4, says the twitch stream


Ancestries & Backgrounds

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So the big one is something I was specifically hoping for, although not quite in the form I expected. Heritages feats are gone, and everyone now just picks a heritage in addition to their ancestry feat at 1st level.

Gnomes and Halflings are getting their core chassis upgraded. Sounds like gnomes get a 25 foot move speed and Halflings now get that Keen Senses feat for free.

Unburdened seems to have become an optional dwarf feat so that it isn't a dead feature if you don't wear medium or heavy armor. (Though I suspect this was also because the core dwarf chassis was just too good.)

Various feats are getting pulled out to become heritages or freebies. To replace them we are getting a whole bunch of new Ancestry feats, including higher level ones, 9th and 13th level stuff.

1. Natural Medicine and Battle Medic have been updated to be relevant with Treat Wounds in play.

2. Bravery also reduces incoming frightened condition by 1 before it even hits you to make up for the bad will save. Meaning Fighters are immune to frightened 1.

3. Ancestries now get a 13th level feat that gives you expert in your ancestries weapons.

4. Bunch of 9th level ancestry feats, Mark's says coolest one is Multi-talented. When you take it at 9th level you gain a multiclass dedication feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites. This includes having taken less than two feats from another archetype.

5. Elven Longevity can get you up to expert eventually, or at least can be upgraded with a second feat to do that and can let you retrain long-term skills. Not sure I understand how the latter works exactly.

6. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are now heritages, not heritage feats. You get all the benefits and can still pick another ancestry feat.

Not sure if I'm forgetting anything, I don't have time to do a second listen right now. Lots of good stuff though!


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Did they say anything about Gobbos? :o


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Hearing there's a mechanical buff to bravery is fantastic. Fighter McBrave cannot be shaken??? Come at me Frightful Presence!


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I called this happening a while back. Still good to see some upgrades. I'll be curious to see whether this is the final upgrade or if they're willing to go one step further (that would genuinely be impressive rather than simply expected).


John Lynch 106 wrote:
I called this happening a while back. Still good to see some upgrades. I'll be curious to see whether this is the final upgrade or if they're willing to go one step further (that would genuinely be impressive rather than simply expected).

Considering there is still plenty of playtest left, I'd assume they'd see how the current changes are received/influence things and then decide from there.

Regardless, great to hear we'll get new toys to play with as part of Ancestry. My biggest disappointment on the first reading was seeing a lack of higher level / more influential abilities.


This is a great step. Hopefully as they get through some of the feedback from the classes survey and rules survey they'll start to fix some of the big problems with feats too.


Any info on if they'd be adding any new heritages? Notably the human only has half elf or half orc heritage feats atm which means they would get nothing from this change. Also with the change to halfings getting keen senses as base means they don't have any to choose either. A lot of the other races don't get an actual choice either but I suppose that's acceptable as its still playtest and I can appreciate the spirit of this change for future additions to the game


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These changes sound pretty fantastic to me.


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Gloom wrote:
Did they say anything about Gobbos? :o

Not that I recall, but they will almost certainly get some new stuff too. Everyone is getting new ancestry feats by the sound of it. And goblins will have a 1st level heritage, too.

One of the gnome heritages gives you a closer relationship to Recaps and other evil fey. And I think there's an ancestry feat to give you more powerful racial magic but I don't recall specifics.

One of the halfling heritages gives you low light vision.


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Sounds like a step in the right direction at least.

I'd still prefer at least two heritage feats selections at first level, if not more. Ancestries just feel so empty compared to 1E races, and combinations of options are far more interesting and satisfying than singular choices. While we obviously have to wait and see the actual rules update before coming to any conclusions, this still sounds like far less than I would have liked.


Aashua wrote:
Any info on if they'd be adding any new heritages? Notably the human only has half elf or half orc heritage feats atm which means they would get nothing from this change. Also with the change to halfings getting keen senses as base means they don't have any to choose either. A lot of the other races don't get an actual choice either but I suppose that's acceptable as its still playtest and I can appreciate the spirit of this change for future additions to the game

Yes, everyone will get new heritages. Multiple ones to choose from, by the sounds of it. I don't see why humans would be left out of that. Dunno what they will get though. One thing they could go for is making your ethnicity into a heritage with distinct mechanical benefits, but that might get the side-eye from people because it could play into real world racial stereotyping and such.


Makeitstop wrote:

Sounds like a step in the right direction at least.

I'd still prefer at least two heritage feats selections at first level, if not more. Ancestries just feel so empty compared to 1E races, and combinations of options are far more interesting and satisfying than singular choices. While we obviously have to wait and see the actual rules update before coming to any conclusions, this still sounds like far less than I would have liked.

I can't think of a good reason to give folks 2 heritages, TBH. At least not when you still get a 1st level ancestry feat and heritages may be mutually exclusive.

Now, you could argue they should still get more ancestry feats, be it at level 1 or later, but multiple heritages? Nah.


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They mentioned that there was a halfling heritage that granted low-light vision as well as a gnome heritage which was associated with some darker fey like redcaps.

Sovereign Court

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Captain Morgan wrote:

So the big one is something I was specifically hoping for, although not quite in the form I expected. Heritages feats are gone, and everyone now just picks a heritage in addition to their ancestry feat at 1st level.

Gnomes and Halflings are getting their core chassis upgraded. Sounds like gnomes get a 25 foot move speed and Halflings now get that Keen Senses feat for free.

Unburdened seems to have become an optional dwarf feat so that it isn't a dead feature if you don't wear medium or heavy armor. (Though I suspect this was also because the core dwarf chassis was just too good.)

Various feats are getting pulled out to become heritages or freebies. To replace them we are getting a whole bunch of new Ancestry feats, including higher level ones, 9th and 13th level stuff.

1. Natural Medicine and Battle Medic have been updated to be relevant with Treat Wounds in play.

2. Bravery also reduces incoming frightened condition by 1 before it even hits you to make up for the bad will save. Meaning Fighters are immune to frightened 1.

3. Ancestries now get a 13th level feat that gives you expert in your ancestries weapons.

4. Bunch of 9th level ancestry feats, Mark's says coolest one is Multi-talented. When you take it at 9th level you gain a multiclass dedication feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites. This includes having taken less than two feats from another archetype.

5. Elven Longevity can get you up to expert eventually, or at least can be upgraded with a second feat to do that and can let you retrain long-term skills. Not sure I understand how the latter works exactly.

6. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are now heritages, not heritage feats. You get all the benefits and can still pick another ancestry feat.

Not sure if I'm forgetting anything, I don't have time to do a second listen right now. Lots of good stuff though!

I still think its odd that you need to advance in levels to become " better " in your race- oops ancestry


that multi talented one sounds wonderful. Albiet probably human only with the way things go?

excellent about the halfs. I identify and RP Half-Elves the best. Reminds me so much of my family situation~
adore it!

I do hope they also give one general feat at lv 1.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Makeitstop wrote:

Sounds like a step in the right direction at least.

I'd still prefer at least two heritage feats selections at first level, if not more. Ancestries just feel so empty compared to 1E races, and combinations of options are far more interesting and satisfying than singular choices. While we obviously have to wait and see the actual rules update before coming to any conclusions, this still sounds like far less than I would have liked.

I can't think of a good reason to give folks 2 heritages, TBH. At least not when you still get a 1st level ancestry feat and heritages may be mutually exclusive.

Now, you could argue they should still get more ancestry feats, be it at level 1 or later, but multiple heritages? Nah.

If heritages are whole collections of features, essentially making them a complete sub-race package, then yes, one would be enough. But if we are talking about essentially one trait? Yeah, that's a waste of design space.

And it leads to the weird situation where the whole race is either the kind that has low-light vision or the ones with fangs, but no overlap between them. When you can mix and match, the race as a whole feels a lot more organic and plausible.

And quite frankly, more choices, more mechanics, more flavor, that's all more fun.


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Captain Morgan wrote:


Yes, everyone will get new heritages. Multiple ones to choose from, by the sounds of it. I don't see why humans would be left out of that. Dunno what they will get though. One thing they could go for is making your ethnicity into a heritage with distinct mechanical benefits, but that might get the side-eye from people because it could play into real world racial stereotyping and such.

Yet another reason to drop ethnic access and go with regional access. Folks get pretty heated on those sorts of topics, so I prefer to give them a wide berth.

Once again, another good list of changes. Excited to see more and keep up the good work.


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So one thing I'm wondering about is what the human heritages which are not "half-elf/orc" going to look like. Since if it's like "you are from Ustalav" or "you are from Osirion" what happens if I want to play a half-orc from Ustalav (a land of many half-orcs)?


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Any info on if they'd be adding any new heritages? Notably the human only has half elf or half orc heritage feats atm which means they would get nothing from this change. Also with the change to halfings getting keen senses as base means they don't have any to choose either. A lot of the other races don't get an actual choice either but I suppose that's acceptable as its still playtest and I can appreciate the spirit of this change for future additions to the game
Yes, everyone will get new heritages. Multiple ones to choose from, by the sounds of it. I don't see why humans would be left out of that. Dunno what they will get though. One thing they could go for is making your ethnicity into a heritage with distinct mechanical benefits, but that might get the side-eye from people because it could play into real world racial stereotyping and such.

Well they did already sorta have those in PF 1 with the Heart of the ___ alternate racial traits from pf1 humans (granted they seemed to be more upbringing local based and less racial based so it sidesteps that issue) so maybe they'll bring those over.


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Zwordsman wrote:

that multi talented one sounds wonderful. Albiet probably human only with the way things go?

excellent about the halfs. I identify and RP Half-Elves the best. Reminds me so much of my family situation~
adore it!

I do hope they also give one general feat at lv 1.

I don't know, multitalented sounds like the classic PF1 half-elf thing.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.


Multi-talented is likely half-elf, given they had a similar thing in PF1.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)


Makeitstop wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Makeitstop wrote:

Sounds like a step in the right direction at least.

I'd still prefer at least two heritage feats selections at first level, if not more. Ancestries just feel so empty compared to 1E races, and combinations of options are far more interesting and satisfying than singular choices. While we obviously have to wait and see the actual rules update before coming to any conclusions, this still sounds like far less than I would have liked.

I can't think of a good reason to give folks 2 heritages, TBH. At least not when you still get a 1st level ancestry feat and heritages may be mutually exclusive.

Now, you could argue they should still get more ancestry feats, be it at level 1 or later, but multiple heritages? Nah.

If heritages are whole collections of features, essentially making them a complete sub-race package, then yes, one would be enough. But if we are talking about essentially one trait? Yeah, that's a waste of design space.

And it leads to the weird situation where the whole race is either the kind that has low-light vision or the ones with fangs, but no overlap between them. When you can mix and match, the race as a whole feels a lot more organic and plausible.

And quite frankly, more choices, more mechanics, more flavor, that's all more fun.

I'm not sure if we need three of the racial additions at level 1 but I would kinda like them to just leave them as heritage feats and let people pick two at level one if they so choose, mostly just because I imagine in the full game using this system the elf variants like Drow would be printed as heritages and it would be nice if they didn't have to print an equivalent for every variant of half elf to allow the player to represent them better.

I can however understand them potentially wanting to beef up the power levels of the heritages, in which case it might be understandable why there locking them in a 1 max (As is though, aside from the half race heritage feats they dont feel all that far above the other level 1 feats.)

Liberty's Edge

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I asked a while back for higher level ancestry feats, so I'm really happy for this.


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Yes more heritages... Ahh... My half orc dwarf will have to wait thought... That makes me sad.


Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

I'd bet on tiefling and aasimar. Though they could go with a more general "plane touched" option instead and something more standard human for the last one.

Liberty's Edge

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I am quite pleased with this news and look forward to seeing the mechanics in detail. It definitely sounds like it'll fix one of my remaining issues with the playtest (leaving mostly some remaining math stuff, especially on Skills).

It does also seem like this is ripe for a Feat of some sort to have two Heritages.


Any sign on whether or not you'll be able to just buy physical type traits from ancestry feats rather than needing to pick up cultural ones?


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ErichAD wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

I'd bet on tiefling and aasimar. Though they could go with a more general "plane touched" option instead and something more standard human for the last one.

As much as I would love to see Tieflings and Aasimar make a early return, that is actually not help at all to my original concern, which is that there needs to be heritage feats for normal old plain jane humans otherwise their is mechanically no reason in the new system to play a human over its half variants since their only upside if humans get a free heritage, that can only make them into a half human.

So I'm pretty doubtful on that one much as I'd love to see it alongside normal human heritages.


Cyouni wrote:
Multi-talented is likely half-elf, given they had a similar thing in PF1.

Sounds to me like it applies to all humans. Which Im fine with.


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ErichAD wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

I'd bet on tiefling and aasimar. Though they could go with a more general "plane touched" option instead and something more standard human for the last one.

Doesnt one need to be "bog standard human"? If bet thats the one that gets the class feat.


Data Lore wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

I'd bet on tiefling and aasimar. Though they could go with a more general "plane touched" option instead and something more standard human for the last one.
Doesnt one need to be "bog standard human"? If bet thats the one that gets the class feat.

I really Really REALLY hope they don't just turn Natural Ambition into a heritage, that would lock out so many interesting builds.


I am willing to bet man. Hell, extra feat for the bog standard human has a long tradition in the hobby.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'd think the "Heart of the" racial options from PF1 humans would be the places to start looking for human heritages.


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Data Lore wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

I'd bet on tiefling and aasimar. Though they could go with a more general "plane touched" option instead and something more standard human for the last one.
Doesnt one need to be "bog standard human"? If bet thats the one that gets the class feat.

That wouldn't surprise me... Maybe we'll see a return of the neanderthal/Primitive human for the 4th?


Here's hoping that Elves get their sleep immunity BASELINE. That doesn't need to be a feat since it never ever has come up.


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graystone wrote:
Data Lore wrote:


Doesnt one need to be "bog standard human"? If bet thats the one that gets the class feat.
That wouldn't surprise me... Maybe we'll see a return of the neanderthal/Primitive human for the 4th?

I'm secretly hoping for Muls but thats trademarked. Maybe some kinda Merfolk?

I would hope they make dragonborn and the planetouched some kinda generic heritages any race can take.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
Here's hoping that Elves get their sleep immunity BASELINE. That doesn't need to be a feat since it never ever has come up.

Honestly, Elves being immune to sleep felt like a legacy thing that never really made sense for Golarion elves in the first place. Since "backwards compatibility with 3.5" is no longer an issue, I really hope that Elves aren't immune to sleep by default.


I hope we still get some heritage feats later for more advanced stuff but starting out with a good base is familiar and makes sense in a lot of ways.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Here's hoping that Elves get their sleep immunity BASELINE. That doesn't need to be a feat since it never ever has come up.
Honestly, Elves being immune to sleep felt like a legacy thing that never really made sense for Golarion elves in the first place. Since "backwards compatibility with 3.5" is no longer an issue, I really hope that Elves aren't immune to sleep by default.

It's now written into Golarion Elf lore, so no longer just an unbased legacy.

ELVES OF GOLARION wrote:

Sylandurla, the elf songstress, is said to have climbed the impossible spire that rises from the planar city of Axis to support Pharasma’s boneyard and sung 8,008 songs to win the promise of elven immunity to magical sleep. Bards and daredevils invoke her name, and she is said to sing wisdom to anyone who completes an impossible task.

ELVES OF GOLARION wrote:

One of the gravest elven insults is to knowingly and deliberately cast sleep on another elf—an intentionally weak, blatantly ineffective attempt to control another’s freedom that impugns an elf’s very “elfishness.” It is a sign that the caster feels nothing but contempt for the target, and centuries-long feuds have begun from such slights.

It's Halflings and Gnomes that really felt out of place from legacy 3E. Dwarf history was written seemingly to accomodate all of their Hatreds, so that one also works.


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I'm kind of dubious about how canonical some of those earlier player companions are, to be honest, but ymmv. I mean, Elves of Golarion was literally printed before the Core Rulebook so it's kind of a 3.5 supplement anyway.

Regardless, I would prefer elf sleep immunity stay an option. It was a thing I always traded away anyway.


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Yeah I've had elfs sleep immunity not come up once during whole campaigns (and I run long campaigns.)

The one time I think I can remember of it coming up it was cool but that is the only time I can think of.

I was elf rogue flanking and the wizard wanted to sleep some but it was an aoe so he had to catch someone in the party and he chose me and for a second there I was like Aww then I was like Oh YEAH! SMART!


Very good news. Initially, I was okay with the Human Heritage feats being a "tax" for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, because they felt super-good. But as I've gotten to know the system better, I can say that the Human feats are good enough that you'd never *NEED* to take a heritage feat because there was nothing better.

This will certainly make Half-Elf and Half-Orc fans happy, and I'm personally happy that it opens up customization for other races.


That gnome one might be enough to actually get me to play a gnome for the first time ever.


EberronHoward wrote:

Very good news. Initially, I was okay with the Human Heritage feats being a "tax" for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, because they felt super-good. But as I've gotten to know the system better, I can say that the Human feats are good enough that you'd never *NEED* to take a heritage feat because there was nothing better.

This will certainly make Half-Elf and Half-Orc fans happy, and I'm personally happy that it opens up customization for other races.

Previously Human Half-Elf lvl 1

Fleet general feat as soon as you could
Nimble self feat after that

Was all but required for heavy armor wearers


That's good news! I just hope humans don't end up being required for optimization like they were in a lot of builds in pf1.


BluLion wrote:
That's good news! I just hope humans don't end up being required for optimization like they were in a lot of builds in pf1.

This is exactly why I hope Natural Ambition doesn't get stuck behind the human gate, any casting based class especially needs it if they want to multiclass and get any of their early main class feats without cashing in a way higher level potential class feat.


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"Meaning Fighters are immune to frightened 1."

I really like this. I would like a return of the Fighter having badass saving throws, like AD&D. I really don't know why the 3rd Ed team decided the Fighter should have weak Ref and Will saves. The Fighter should have gritty/steely resolve (resistant to charm, fear), shrug effects off, and dodge breath weapons, supports the genre, and would beef them up a bit.


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I mean I kind of get what they were thinking but it just didn't work out really.

Figthers and other martials are tough and hearty so +fort rogues are quick so reflex all casters have good will. Classes that are expected to be in combat and cast spells had both good fort and will etc. etc.

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