Ancestries are getting overhauled in 1.4, says the twitch stream


Ancestries & Backgrounds

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Data Lore wrote:

The one bad part about generalized heritages is then they dont apply to half breeds. No planetouched half elves or desert half orcs.

If they add one more step...

Hmm, so heritage (race specific), then regional (race agnostic), that would add an easy bit of customization. The regional feats would be shared, so, not so much page count.

You could put all the arctic, jungle, planetouched, etc crap there.

If thats too many steps, maybe have regional feats be like the old heritage feats. Only selectable at level 1 but by all ancestries.

This was something I sort of proposed with the thread on Ancestry Kits.

Culture and Heritage need to be separate. One can be related to your upbringing, the other can be your physical manifestation of your heritage (ears, sight, smell, teeth, etc.)

Then just put everything non-cultural and non-heritage in the "Feats" area.

One could argue that "Backgrounds" could subsume the Cultural aspect of the Race, but personally I think that needs to remain a little more tailored to previous professions/lifestyles than actual Culture (you can be a half orc, you can be an arctic born half-orc, and you can be a Arctic Born Half Orc who was a Circus Performer, or at least you should be).

Either way, I think the suggestion of Regional (I would just expand to "Cultural" so it includes things like Nomadic societies, Cities, etc.) is the "extra piece" that's missing that would scratch everyone's itch. It also puts the Ancestries at level 1 just a hair under where the PF1 races were (which they should be weaker, since PF1 races do not get better as you level like Ancestries do).


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Cantriped wrote:
Some Environmental Adaptation general feats would go a long way towards filling the gaps created by the environmentally adapted heritages. Also note they're pretty damn generic. Just let an elf take "Desert Elf" (as Desert Dwarf, but with the Elf trait instead of Dwarf) as appropriate. Golarion won't crumble.

Or perhaps it will, and that's why it's gone in Starfinder.

Grand Lodge

I don't like the environment traits overall. To be honest, this is something that most people will just house rule or forget. I don't believe any GM asked for fortitude saves at each hour in Reign of Winter - it isn't fun for anyone.

If an Elf and a Human grew up in the same cold place, shouldn't they have the same cold resistance?


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IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.


Leafar Cathal wrote:

I don't like the environment traits overall. To be honest, this is something that most people will just house rule or forget. I don't believe any GM asked for fortitude saves at each hour in Reign of Winter - it isn't fun for anyone.

If an Elf and a Human grew up in the same cold place, shouldn't they have the same cold resistance?

That's a good argument to make.

Perhaps the "Culture/Regional" aspects should be moved to a Global Pool that all Ancestries have access to.

That does mean that any environment/region/culture not offered feel a bit left out.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.

Correct. Elves can adapt a lot more extremely to their environment in less time. Humans are limited to how they are in the real world, but the Elves can go a step beyond and actually develop cold resistance.


ChibiNyan wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Correct. Elves can adapt a lot more extremely to their environment in less time. Humans are limited to how they are in the real world, but the Elves can go a step beyond and actually develop cold resistance.

Physically, I buy that.

However, I would say Humans adapting based on environment in other ways is far more prevalent.

Also that explanation for elves isn't ubiquitous. A lot of play settings don't subscribe to that.


Midnightoker wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Correct. Elves can adapt a lot more extremely to their environment in less time. Humans are limited to how they are in the real world, but the Elves can go a step beyond and actually develop cold resistance.

Physically, I buy that.

However, I would say Humans adapting based on environment in other ways is far more prevalent.

Also that explanation for elves isn't ubiquitous. A lot of play settings don't subscribe to that.

These "Heritages" are really simplistic in how they work. Think you're supposed to make your own if using a custom setting. Like the 5E "heritages" are pretty different from these and reflect the Forgotten Realms types instead. Those feel a lot more interesting crunch-wise, too!


ChibiNyan wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Correct. Elves can adapt a lot more extremely to their environment in less time. Humans are limited to how they are in the real world, but the Elves can go a step beyond and actually develop cold resistance.

Yeah, and in 5th Ed they have really embraced this, the Chosen of Corellon can choose their sex after a long rest.

Liberty's Edge

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Humans don't adapt to their environments. They adapt their environments to them.


Shisumo wrote:
Humans don't adapt to their environments. They adapt their environments to them.

Wearing thick furs, hunting in specific seasons, acquiring digestive changes (drinking milk), changing circadian rhythm, building tolerance to iocane powder, etc. are all things humans do to themselves, not to the environment itself.

Regardless, both aspects could be suited to Cultures/Feats/Heritage.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.

Then why aren't elves the dominant and most widespread race in Golarion? Like, I thought the whole point of humans was that they were adaptable/skilled and thus were able to settle all across various biomes despite being shorter lived, less magical, and not as strong as some other races.


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Charon Onozuka wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Then why aren't elves the dominant and most widespread race in Golarion? Like, I thought the whole point of humans was that they were adaptable/skilled and thus were able to settle all across various biomes despite being shorter lived, less magical, and not as strong as some other races.

It's cultural, not genetic. With super long lifespans, Elves are not in a hurry to do anything in particular.

Scarab Sages

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Then why aren't elves the dominant and most widespread race in Golarion? Like, I thought the whole point of humans was that they were adaptable/skilled and thus were able to settle all across various biomes despite being shorter lived, less magical, and not as strong as some other races.
It's cultural, not genetic. With super long lifespans, Elves are not in a hurry to do anything in particular.

Humans are just a flash in the pan, really.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Charon Onozuka wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IIRC one of the bits of lore about Elves is that they very quickly adapt to/are changed by their environment. Like it's been 3000ish years since the Elves came back from space and already some of them have gills and are living underwater.
Then why aren't elves the dominant and most widespread race in Golarion? Like, I thought the whole point of humans was that they were adaptable/skilled and thus were able to settle all across various biomes despite being shorter lived, less magical, and not as strong as some other races.

I always figured it was reproductive rate. If Elves are elephants, than humans are rabbits.

Liberty's Edge

Captain Morgan wrote:

So the big one is something I was specifically hoping for, although not quite in the form I expected. Heritages feats are gone, and everyone now just picks a heritage in addition to their ancestry feat at 1st level.

Gnomes and Halflings are getting their core chassis upgraded. Sounds like gnomes get a 25 foot move speed and Halflings now get that Keen Senses feat for free.

Unburdened seems to have become an optional dwarf feat so that it isn't a dead feature if you don't wear medium or heavy armor. (Though I suspect this was also because the core dwarf chassis was just too good.)

Various feats are getting pulled out to become heritages or freebies. To replace them we are getting a whole bunch of new Ancestry feats, including higher level ones, 9th and 13th level stuff.

1. Natural Medicine and Battle Medic have been updated to be relevant with Treat Wounds in play.

2. Bravery also reduces incoming frightened condition by 1 before it even hits you to make up for the bad will save. Meaning Fighters are immune to frightened 1.

3. Ancestries now get a 13th level feat that gives you expert in your ancestries weapons.

4. Bunch of 9th level ancestry feats, Mark's says coolest one is Multi-talented. When you take it at 9th level you gain a multiclass dedication feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites. This includes having taken less than two feats from another archetype.

5. Elven Longevity can get you up to expert eventually, or at least can be upgraded with a second feat to do that and can let you retrain long-term skills. Not sure I understand how the latter works exactly.

6. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are now heritages, not heritage feats. You get all the benefits and can still pick another ancestry feat.

Not sure if I'm forgetting anything, I don't have time to do a second listen right now. Lots of good stuff though!

Lots of good stuff here. This is a step in the right direction for ancestries, but I think that ancestry basic weapon proficiency should be automatic at level 1 (unless it already is and I missed it).


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am wondering whether that Multitalented feat might be pointing to a problem with the whole scheme of multi-classing via archetype feats. If you are already creating ways to get around the limitation that you need to take a certain number of multi-classing feats for a given class or dedication before you can take another dedication, maybe that is a sign that the limitation itself is not a good idea.


Once we get a whole set of prestige archetypes I think that we might see some retraining shenanigans to be able to combine a prestige archetype (gained naturally) on top of a multiclass one (gained via multitalented).


...As 1st Ed. Multitalented became more valuable when unique racial Favored Class bonuses were released. It's commonly accepted 3.x/Pathfinder has been game of exceptions, and that isn't understood as indicating problem with baseline rules. Glancing at David's posts, I see advice on using Alternate Racial Ability replacements for 1stEd Multitalented if not planning to multiclass, but nothing about the existence of Multitalented's exception implying any fundamental problem with default Favored Class restriction.

That isn't to say that current Multiclass Dedication mechanic may not be ideal, but the mere existence of Multitalented as exception to Multiclassing rule isn't particularly remarkable IMHO. Personally, I am fine with some mechanics like Multiclass & Prestige Feats using Dedication (and Multitalented modifying this, albeit IMHO it should belong to Half-Elves), but IMHO allowing broader class of Universal Class Feats without Dedication would "fulfill" the demands now exclusively placed on Multiclassing. Dropping the term "Class Feat" (for something broader like Hero Feats) would facilitate using them for things less directly related to Primary/Multi/Prestige Class... As well as legitimizing General/Skill Feats to also cover Class-related effects (but with distinct power level calibration/ focus on Skills).

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