Ancestries are getting overhauled in 1.4, says the twitch stream


Ancestries & Backgrounds

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
It's my personal preference that all "hybrid/planetouched" persons be at least half human. My headcanon is that the human superpower is that they can (and will) breed with a surprising variety of things.

Apparently Dragons have that superpower as well.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Like I know that Pathfinder has rules for like Gnome Aasimar, but it's my preference to just house rule that stuff out of existence.

I have the exact opposite preference. Let players field whatever ancestral combinations they want.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
It's also my preference that there are no half-dwarves anywhere.

For Athas!

In any case... Based on this exchange from a few blog posts back, Half Orc is probably going to stay locked to Half Human but be balanced in such a way that it could be easily applied to another ancestry as a houserule.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Rules Artificer wrote:
The Once and Future Kai wrote:
Indeed. The open surveys are where you can tell Paizo whatever you want. For instance, I repeated my incessant requests that Half Orc and Half Elf no longer be limited to Half Human (this wasn't a category in the other survey). I also asked for Half Gnome, Half Dwarf, Half Goblin, and so on... But not Half...half...ling...because that's weird?

While amusing, I very highly doubt that this will be included as an option. Pathfinder has always assumed the Golarion setting, and 2E has doubled down on that assumption.

And the existing races on Golarion are fairly set in stone after 10+ years of setting building.

Even if it's not "official," we can potentially try to build the half-ancestries in a way that they can be used like Kai wants. For instance, you could get those up and running with a minimum of tweaking and no deep game design necessary with the current version (and that means we could use the paradigm to do just that ourselves for ancestries that have traditionally spread beyond human in Golarion, like aasimar/tiefling/other planar scion).


necromental wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
They're celebrating Croatian Independence Day too? That's nice of them.

It's also Thanksgiving in Canada.


The Sideromancer wrote:
necromental wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
They're celebrating Croatian Independence Day too? That's nice of them.
It's also Thanksgiving in Canada.

I think it's Columbus Day or something in the US too though I don't think it usually nets anyone time off down there...


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ChibiNyan wrote:

It's now written into Golarion Elf lore, so no longer just an unbased legacy.

Retroactive Continuity is usually my biggest point in support against making something a rule mainly because it's in the lore; if it was written into lore specifically because it was a legacy thing in the first place, which is the most likely result, then making something a rule "because it's canon" can mean a huge future debt that impedes making a great game. I'm not against any one rule, such as the elf sleep immunity, or "goblins shouldn't be a core race," or "paladins should only be Lawful Good," but I'd rather it be the foundation for a good game than include it because we always had it.

(I personally feel similarly about Sorcerers, too - my personal recollection from many years ago from a conversation with one of the WotC personnel is that they were originally created specifically to introduce spontaneous casting among the general base of D&D players back in 1999 to see if in the future it would become a staple of wizards - but instead, there were so many outcries over its lack of power in comparison to wizards, that to balance them Paizo turned them into their own thing, with bloodlines and other tweaks - but if wizards were to ever gain some form of spontaneous casting, it would eat most of the sorcerer's lunch overnight, all because WotC should have IMO pulled the trigger almost 20 years ago in the first place instead of being gun shy. Unfortunately, most of the conversations about this have been washed away with the destruction of various forums and Usenet Newsgroups.)


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Crayon wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
necromental wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
They're celebrating Croatian Independence Day too? That's nice of them.
It's also Thanksgiving in Canada.
I think it's Columbus Day or something in the US too though I don't think it usually nets anyone time off down there...

In Seattle, as well as a lot of the west coast of the USA, it's indigenous peoples day.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.

Does that mean the errata is coming out tomorrow or just that it might be delayed but it's still supposed to come out today?


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dnoisette wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
Does that mean the errata is coming out tomorrow or just that it might be delayed but it's still supposed to come out today?

It'll come today as said in last stream


Dante Doom wrote:
dnoisette wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
Does that mean the errata is coming out tomorrow or just that it might be delayed but it's still supposed to come out today?
It'll come today as said in last stream

Theoretically. We don't really know if it will be delayed or for how long. We just need to have patience.

Grand Lodge

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That's O.K. The internet community is legendary for its patience................................................................... ........................................................................... ...Is it out yet? Grrrr...................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ..........How about now? AARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ...............................................................*Jeopardy theme*...........................................


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Soon™. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I thoughts the update was coming next Monday not today, good to know I was wrong.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LiquidLeoc wrote:
I thoughts the update was coming next Monday not today, good to know I was wrong.

Not only that, but the update is coming out today even though today is a holiday and nobody is in the office. Mark Seifter said so during his Twitch interview on Friday.

Edit: And now it is out!


I like these changes, mostly. Dwarves seem kinda screwed. I would change their "Unburdened" heritage back to zero speed penalty or at least -10 since they are so slow. Now even a bog standard gnome is faster than them and an Elf is faster than them in armor even if they have the unburdened trait... which seems unfair.


^ In other words, 1.4 is up!


Data Lore wrote:
I like these changes, mostly. Dwarves seem kinda screwed. I would change their "Unburdened" heritage back to zero speed penalty or at least -10 since they are so slow. Now even a bog standard gnome is faster than them and an Elf is faster than them in armor even if they have the unburdened trait... which seems unfair.

they do gain some insane HP polls now though.

not only their starting HP are the highest, but now they get an addtional 1/level on top of toughness.

(the saving throws heritage is still terrible though...)

also:
omg at the regenerating gnomes...
and humans being able to start with 2 extra general feats at level 1, meaning a wizard could start with medium armor even without multiclass


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shroudb wrote:
(the saving throws heritage is still terrible though...)

Actually, that's a pretty cool ability, even ignoring the resonance drawback. So long as you can find work-arounds for no magic armor and no potions for about 4 levels, Magic weapons, most runes, and bags of holding don't use resonance, and in return you get a +2 to any one save per turn. Just have the alchemist or cleric back you with Spells or Elixirs, and you can have save that are basically two levels higher. I could see some fighter, cleric, or barbarian builds that would do pretty well with Ancient Blood.

Quote:
...and humans being able to start with 2 extra general feats at level 1, meaning a wizard could start with medium armor even without multiclass

I honestly have to wonder if that's a typo -- though we won't know until later this week. Given that, for most other races, they removed certain duplicative feats when putting them into heritages, I think they might have meant to remove the +1 general feat and +1 trained skill feats for those heritages. Otherwise, Versatile Heritage is CRAZY good, because you can use it to front-load anything from saves, to movement, to hit points, etc.


I like the versatile human. It fits, imo, and isnt too crazy.


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I'm terribly underwhelmed.

I now have to select the corresponding heritage feat to gain Unburdened as a Dwarf...and I get nothing more than I used to from it.

I'm sorry but "giving more at 1st level" for every ancestry was supposed to be the goal here and it's an epic failure.

I half expected the Elven heritages to all be terrain variations but I'm still completely let down.

A Snow Goblin and an Arctic Elf get the exact same bonuses. I don't see how that helps make you feel more "goblinish" or more "elvish".

Some of the new feats are incredibly OP while others are just meh.

I don't really now how else to convey what I want from ancestries.
I thought the staff had it right this time from hearing the stream but a quick look at 1.4 is enough to say they didn't get it at all.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Data Lore wrote:
I like the versatile human. It fits, imo, and isnt too crazy.

The only thing crazy about it is that the General Training feat still exists and presumably can be taken with the Versatile Human heritage.

Even the Half-Elf and Half-Orc feats were deleted only implicitly, not by the sort of direct statement that the non-human Heritage feats got.


David knott 242 wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
I like the versatile human. It fits, imo, and isnt too crazy.

The only thing crazy about it is that the General Training feat still exists and presumably can be taken with the Versatile Human heritage.

Even the Half-Elf and Half-Orc feats were deleted only implicitly, not by the sort of direct statement that the non-human Heritage feats got.

hal-orc/elf feats were deleted quite directly.

directly above the human heritage feats:

Quote:
Remove the following ancestry feats: Half-Elf, Half-Orc.


Yea its a step in the right direction but it still dont feel right. You are going to see some of the same racials picked over an over because they are just mechanically superior. Like Inflammable for Goblins.


David knott 242 wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
I like the versatile human. It fits, imo, and isnt too crazy.
The only thing crazy about it is that the General Training feat still exists and presumably can be taken with the Versatile Human heritage.

Doesn't seem crazy at all to me. It seems attractive. There's nothing wrong with attractive. I can still see some folks going half-orc or half-elf. The skill one looks good too. If all heritages seem useful, then something was done right.

On a related note, my elven sorcerer/archer is very happy to now have darkvision and to be able to become an expert archer at level 13. Loving it. Absolutely loving it.

Some heritages need tweaks here and there but this patch was really solid. The only unattractive ancestry to me is pretty much dwarves at this point.

This was a very responsive patch by Paizo. The patch even addressed the concern folks had about some ancestry feats seeming weird (like a mutation or whatever). Its kinda disheartening that even when they respond to community concerns and do good work, you still have folks ranting at them on the forums and claiming that its just "not enough."

Well, for my part, I think this is great work and I want to congratulate them on a job well done. Its not perfect (nothing is) but it is a very large step in the right direction.

Liberty's Edge

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dnoisette wrote:

I'm terribly underwhelmed.

I now have to select the corresponding heritage feat to gain Unburdened as a Dwarf...and I get nothing more than I used to from it.

This has to do with Dwarf having been overpowered as compared to...well, basically every other Ancestry, really. At least in terms of chassis.

dnoisette wrote:
I'm sorry but "giving more at 1st level" for every ancestry was supposed to be the goal here and it's an epic failure.

I strongly disagree. It's a solid boost for literally everyone except Dwarves. And, as noted, Dwarves had the best chassis previously. This may have taken it too far, a little, in depowering Dwarf, but it's an unambiguous upgrade for all other Ancestries, and a good one.


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Data Lore wrote:


This was a very responsive patch by Paizo. The patch even addressed the concern folks had about some ancestry feats seeming weird (like a mutation or whatever). Its kinda disheartening that even when they respond to community concerns and do good work, you still have folks ranting at them on the forums and claiming that its just "not enough."

Well, for my part, I think this is great work and I want to congratulate them on a job well done. Its not perfect (nothing is) but it is a very large step in the right direction.

So, according to you, it is wrong of me to state that I am disappointed, and that, unlike you, this update is not what I hoped for?

It's called feedback for a reason: it can't always be good.

I was pretty positive about the changes from 1.3 and I am happy with the new Battle Medic and Natural Medicine, for instance, but I'm really unhappy about ancestries and I should be allowed to say so just as much as you're allowed to say you feel good about it.

Most of the heritage feats feel really bland and uninspired to me, some are even copy/pasted (Arctic Elf/Snow Goblin).

I mean, it's great that you're happy with the update but I don't see how my opinion is supposedly less valid than yours.
I'm not just offering praise so, of course, I am not allowed to voice my disappointment, I must just be "ranting".


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dnoisette wrote:
So, according to you, it is wrong of me to state that I am disappointed, and that, unlike you, this update is not what I hoped for?

Not what I said and I am not about to get into a forum battle with you. Refer to my post for my actual words.


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Data Lore wrote:
Not what I said and I am not about to get into a forum battle with you. Refer to my post for my actual words.

I did : "you still have folks ranting at them on the forums and claiming that its just "not enough."

I'm not ranting, I'm voicing my concerns and you're dismissing them as "a rant".
I too have no further interest in discussing with you, so we're good.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


This has to do with Dwarf having been overpowered as compared to...well, basically every other Ancestry, really. At least in terms of chassis.

I just asked my players who rolled Dwarf characters about this: none of them felt particularly OP and the whole playtest group agreed that Humans was by far the best ancestry, solely on account of the power level of ancestry feats available to them.

I'm going to take your word for it since I did not try that ancestry myself. Maybe Dwarfs were indeed the best but the way it is now, they should probably roll back some of the changes to make them on par with the rest.


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I'm glad to see higher level Ancestry feats and for the concept of Heritage as a separate mechanic, but I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't do more with it. Unburdened Dwarf, for instance, is a letdown to me - I want Dwarf Monks running around carrying massive loads unencumbered. Goblin Song is pretty awesome though.


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I think the idea is that we want every ancestry option to be relatively comparable in terms of "what you get before choosing feats" so we don't have to weigh feats versus "is this too good for a Dwarf" because the stuff Dwarves get before you pick feats was better than the stuff Halflings got before you pick feats.

Of course, that being said, we should also have the various ancestry feats be relatively balanced compared to each other and the fact that natural ambition and general training are far and away the strongest ancestry feats since most ancestry feats are still weaker than class or general feats.


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a step in the right direction. more balance. Good job


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Over-all I think this is great move that will satisfy alot of people and has already introduced more diversity to the Ancestries, which is great.
The Fighter Bravery change is great, and I think the above complaints about Dwarf is actually reflecting a problem with other races' speeds.

About the Small race speeds, I don't like any of them having 25'/ same as Humans by default (Ancestry/Heritage Feat for that is OK).
(OK, *some* other Small race could be all about speed and have 25' or 30' base speed, but it just isn't core to Halfling/Gnome/Goblin IMHO
and further negates relevance of Small vs Medium distinction - 20 vs 25 is HIGHER % of Human speed than 3.x/P1E's 20 vs 30: they don't need more.)

Elf options are really the problem in too much spread in PC speed.
I think Elf base 30' + base Elf Feat +5' (PLUS Difficult Terrain bonus) is too much, have one or the other... Keeping it a Feat seems reasonable IMHO,
although I am OK if it a base ability too, but then the +5 speed shouldn't be base feat option. (higher level pre-req would make it OK)
If Elf 30' speed is a Feat, then new Elf Step probably just requires a 35' movement (i.e. reflecting you invested in speed, via Elf Feat or otherwise).
Really, all these Racial speed boosts should have caveat they only apply in light armor (maybe allow upgrade to Medium as part of further Feats).
Elf Step doesn't function if Speed is lowered below 40 (e.g. by Armor/Load) but even the base speed increase shouldn't work either IMHO.
That would really keep Dwarf Unburdened niche protected and distinct IMHO (although Unburdened also lessening Armor Check Penalty seems appropriate too)

Re: Half-Elf/Orc I think this is improvement, but I still don't like shoe-horning them into Human.
Sure, maybe it's a cute mechanic for some stuff, but not needed for these Core Iconic races that deserve distinct status.

I think it's also missing opportunity for them to have distinct stat bonuses vs Humans (which only existed in P1E).
In fact, I think it's legit to address that Half-Elf and -Orc don't even need full symmetry in these matters,
given Elf is already "PC norm" re: stats, while full Orc is not. So IMHO Half-Orc hard-coding STR or CON is reasonable (and matches art).
that could be new 3rd stat pattern, not 2 Free, not +2 -1 +1Free , but +1 +1Free with choice of STR/CON for +1 almost but not quite free)
Alternatively it could give only +1 bonus to 2 stats (STR+CON) which functionally is relevant only after Level stat-boosts,
but it could allow to "double up" on one of those at Level 1, which would still only be +1 ahead of max (or +1 bonus ahead 50% of Levels).
There is other options, basically.

But even if you don't want to change the stats, I strongly prefer they be presented as distinct Race/Ancestry.
That can mean they can't choose the full Human Heritages (but could choose Human Feats) but could have their own plurality of Heritages.
Which is where I think you are still getting it wrong, still forcing them to have less build & Ancestral diversity than other races.
Qualifying for Human Ethnicities is good thing by my book, that would be something a distinct Race/Ancestry would need to specifically add.
(although it could be worded to also allow designating an Ethnicity from non-Human side, even if done subtly if no plan to detail those is imminent)


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If "Golarion centric" is goal, why have such vague names for Heritages?
"Heritage" is a term with connotations of deep culturally specific meaning, so why try to avoid that?
And why always repeat the name of race for each Heritage name?
That's already clear from context (although can be appropriate for specific cases where usage is established by canon).

Arctic Elf? BETTER-> Snowcaster
Cavern Elf? BETTER-> Jinin (or Darklander if that's too specific, although IMHO giving intro linkage to non-Inner Sea is good)
Explaining this is more closely related to Drow, albeit without Demon-infused Evil, seems basic context to include IMHO.
Jungle Elf? BETTER-> Wild Elf (the actual setting umbrella term for Ekujae, Kallijae, etc so legit to re-state "Elf")
Keen-Eared Elf? BETTER-> Keen-Eared

Unburdened Dwarf? BETTER-> [Armored] Citadel?
I'd rather invoke a Heritage of Torag/Crafting/specific Dwarven armor culture.
This would distinguish positive idenity of the most Armor and War-Historied trend of Dwarves.
(without being overly specific to 5 Kings Mountains, as ALL Dwarves seem to have had Citadels)

Ancient-Blooded? BETTER-> Ancient Blood (dropping the "ed")
Strong Hearted Dwarf? BETTER-> Strong Heart (dropping the "ed" and "Dwarf")
EDIT:Desert Dwarf? MAYBE/BETTER-> Southlander or Hotlander
Desert Dwarf is legit setting term covering Pahmet/Sand Dwarves, Shattered Range and Alkenstar Dwarves, and Taralu,
but latter now live in jungle (as do Mbe'ke who have different ancestry, but seem equally plausible to choose this Heritage)
Desert Dwarf/Sand Dwarf (Pahmet specific) already felt not sufficiently distinct IMHO, so better to drop Desert Dwarf?

Bleachling? OKAY
Deep Gnome? BETTER-> Snirfneblin (this is Golarion-specific, right?)
Description can say "(also known as Deep Gnomes)" ALSO: Darklands is better than "underground"
(although "underground" or "subterranean" is easily appended to "Darklands" to help less Golarion-familiar players understand)

Fell Gnome? BETTER-> Fell Kin
Sharp-Nosed Gnome? BETTER-> Sharp-Nosed

Bigbelly Goblin? BETTER-> Bigbelly
Inflammable Goblin? BETTER-> Inflammable
Razortooth Goblin? BETTER-> Razortooth
Snow Goblin? BETTER-> Coldlander

Gutsy Halfling? BETTER-> Gutsy
Jungle Halfling? BETTER-> Wildling (or Wild Halfling on same pattern as Wild Elves)
Kaava and even Jungle is too specific, as it also applies in temperate forest (perfect for Halflings from Andoren, f.e.)
Nomadic Halfling? BETTER-> Footloose... OR Wanderlust... OR Rootless (Paizo usually prefers cheeky color vs generic, seems appropo here)
Twilight Halfling? BETTER-> Twilight... OR Duskling... ???

(Human) Half-Elf and Half-Orc names are fine, I addressed their structural design issues earlier
(Human) Skilled Heritage? BETTER-> Skilled
(Human) Versatile Heritage? BETTER-> Versatile
We don't need to repeat "Heritage" in name, we know this is Heritage Feat, "Skilled Heritage Heritage Feat" is absurd.
ALSO: you recognize "Skilled Human" or "Versatile Human" would be silly-> SAME reason why other races' Heritages shouldn't do that.


Dwarves' Mountain Stoutness Feat wording confuses me...
I would normally assume HP increases are cumulative, so calling that out makes me want to assume anything lacking call out isn't cumulative.
It seems overly wordy for something un-necessary...
The bonus to recovery saves stacking with other specific Feats (but not other Circumstance bonuses) seems the only thing that needs to be called out.

EDIT:It doesn't seem like Update directly addressed this, but IMHO Humans need to have more strongly defined "physiological" abilities, even if this involves "Human soul" which can be pre-req for things like bonus Skills and Feats. Having stronger delineation of real Human Feats vs. ones gainable via Adoption etc.

Human Feats should do more with their specific Heritages (more General Feats, more trained/etc Skills).
Skilled Heritage possibly somewhat more powerful than Versatile, should Versatile have high level Feat for +1 Class Feat? (maybe only using 1/2 Class Level?)
(I mean, Dwarves are getting Stonemeld, it doesn't seem that far a stretch, although setting Level pre-req correctly is important*)
Also, I think Multi-Talented is really material that belongs to Half-Elf (regardless of H-E being distinct Race/Ancestry or not)

* This also prompts me to ask: Should Ancestry Feats be NOT Re-Trainable? If that were true, it makes balancing things like
bonus Class Feats easier, since you can't swap it to something else more useful at high level, and seems to thematically make sense,
as Ancestry Feats are about WHO/WHAT YOU ARE, the nuance of your Race/Ancestry, not "training" that is trivially swappabe.
Since "analysis paralysis"/over-abundance of options seems recognized concern, restricting Ancestry Re-Training seems reasonable.
(if any specific Ancestry feature wants to emphasize mutability, it can give itself specific exception to this, obviously)


On Skill DCs, you mention how "group only needing 1 success" is factor in "setting" appropriate DCs,
IMHO this area is ripe for stronger advice/explanation on dynamics of best approach for groups to take,
i.e. when Aiding is best tactic, and when some characters might not want to Aid if they are too at risk of CritFail.
If everybody is on same page with how best to use those mechanics, then system works well assuming everybody uses it that way.
Without that explanation, a system that assumes that "optimal" approach would be too hard for groups who don't "grok" that.

I think the Ranger Hunt Target / Animal Companion synergy is good, although I'm unclear if it is saying it ONLY has 1 action?
Doesn't the creature still have it's normal allocation of actions? Even if it won't attack more than once, it seems like
it should be able to Move + Attack the Hunted Target, or potentially take other actions, generic or specific like Flyby Attack...?

I like the separation of Arcana and Recall Knowledge:Alchemy, but IMHO it Craft(Alchemy) should just be named skill "Alchemy".
(that allows functionality like Crafting, and can "count as" Crafting for other effects that modify Crafting checks etc)


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eeeehhhh, pretty underwhelmed. I was hoping they'd bring back a lot more of the baseline strengths of the races from 1e. These heritages are so small and compact they're essentially just another 1st level ancestry feat in most cases.

It's a good tuning knob, because unlike feats you couldn't choose two out of the list of heritages, but they put me to sleep.

Good addition, but needs more meat!


I like the changes. Though I have to admit, the changes aren't inspiring me to move away from Adopted heritage human for any non-human character.

Scarab Sages

ENHenry wrote:
shroudb wrote:
(the saving throws heritage is still terrible though...)

Actually, that's a pretty cool ability, even ignoring the resonance drawback. So long as you can find work-arounds for no magic armor and no potions for about 4 levels, Magic weapons, most runes, and bags of holding don't use resonance, and in return you get a +2 to any one save per turn. Just have the alchemist or cleric back you with Spells or Elixirs, and you can have save that are basically two levels higher. I could see some fighter, cleric, or barbarian builds that would do pretty well with Ancient Blood.

Quote:
...and humans being able to start with 2 extra general feats at level 1, meaning a wizard could start with medium armor even without multiclass
I honestly have to wonder if that's a typo -- though we won't know until later this week. Given that, for most other races, they removed certain duplicative feats when putting them into heritages, I think they might have meant to remove the +1 general feat and +1 trained skill feats for those heritages. Otherwise, Versatile Heritage is CRAZY good, because you can use it to front-load anything from saves, to movement, to hit points, etc.

I am assuming it was intentional to stay competative with the half-blank ancestries. Half-blank gets access to a good number of options with their ancestry feats, so versatile and skilled are front loaded with some extra oomph.


Oh yeah, "Inflammable" is just not Goblin Gonzo enough, that doesn't sound like a word a Goblin would frequently say (or non-Goblins when emotionally provoked by talking about Goblins). "Firebug" would be better. (these all would be cool as part of expanded Goblin Bestiary entry rather than CRB, just saying...)

Liberty's Edge

dnoisette wrote:
I just asked my players who rolled Dwarf characters about this: none of them felt particularly OP and the whole playtest group agreed that Humans was by far the best ancestry, solely on account of the power level of ancestry feats available to them.

If you include Feats this is arguable, but I was purely talking chassis (ie: the stuff you get for free sans Feat).

dnoisette wrote:
I'm going to take your word for it since I did not try that ancestry myself. Maybe Dwarfs were indeed the best but the way it is now, they should probably roll back some of the changes to make them on par with the rest.

A bit of an adjustment would probably be good, yeah.

But my main point was more that everyone else received bonuses, which makes for a pretty solid change even if Dwarf is still not quite where it should be.


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Reminder that as rules entries, you need names that are clear that people won't struggle to remember. For example, if I had a heritage which said "Zirnakaynin elf", how many people would be able to tell me what kind of elf that is from the name?


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I figure some of the naming issues are because the people who define the setting and come up with evocative names for things that tell you about the world as a connected entity might just not be in the room much when it comes to "rules updates".


^True.

BTW, I overlooked to mention the idea for Half-Orcs to have +1 free boost +1 (choice of STR or CON, or semi-free)
also seems highly relevant for Half-Elves, but instead of STR or CON they would have semi-free choice of Elf stats (DEX or INT) +1 fully free.
If they wanted to boost both DEX and INT they would lack Elves' other free boost, but also lack penalty to CON,
along with benefits of being own Race/Ancestry and being able to draw not only from Half-Elf Feats but Elf and Human Feats.
Or of course, they have flexibility to put free boost in something else if they don't value both Elf stat boosts, and not suffer CON penalty.

That means there is less over-all stat flexibility for Half-Elfs and -Orcs (vs Humans), but entirely matching what is expected from heritage,
while still giving them flexibility to choose what specific aspect of that heritage they are drawing on,
with choice of stats that are valuable to any class, really. This also keeps them from overly encroaching Humans IMHO.
To me, I don't see over-arching value in Half-Elves who boost neither DEX nor INT, or Half-Orcs who boost neither STR nor CON.
The art for consistently portrays Half-Elves as more graceful, and Half-Orcs as more physical, than normal Humans. Why ignore that?

This isn't going into whether given Orcs are not Core Race norm re: Stats (unlike Elves),
whether Half-Orcs specifically should have +2 -1 +1free, with +STR and CON and -INT obvious choices.
I don't think that would really be bad for game, there isn't any -INT races AFAIK, and why not?
It wouldn't be more marginalizing than other Demihumans' penalty re: Classes with that Primary stat (and tougher ride if 2ndary).
Although if going that route, it may be fair to NOT give them joint access to Human feats, but only to Half-Orc Feats.
(while I would still support them having choice of Human, or potentially Orc, Ethnicity as far as that is relevant)

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Cyouni wrote:
Reminder that as rules entries, you need names that are clear that people won't struggle to remember. For example, if I had a heritage which said "Zirnakaynin elf", how many people would be able to tell me what kind of elf that is from the name?

I mean, I would. But I'm probably the outlier here.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Reminder that as rules entries, you need names that are clear that people won't struggle to remember. For example, if I had a heritage which said "Zirnakaynin elf", how many people would be able to tell me what kind of elf that is from the name?
I mean, I would. But I'm probably the outlier here.

I think the best part of that example is the fact that I had to be autocorrected to spell the name correctly.


PF1 Dwarves were too powerful anyway. Way more baggages of +1's with slightly varying but usually NOT useless, only countered by their physique IF the player is into lookism at its worst...

So, if PF2 Dwarves must have their former plusses return, all other core races must gain new bonuses of equal value to compensate. Yeah, seriously.

Silver Crusade

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Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

Half-X really needs to be divorced entirely from humans-only imo. If someone wants to play a half-drow/elf or a deathtouched dwarf or infernal Gnome there really needs to be a more elegant and flexible solution to this, and not setting the groundwork up front means either it never happens, as in PF1, or you end up with an ugly bolt-on Frankenstein mechanic later.


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Cyouni wrote:
Reminder that as rules entries, you need names that are clear that people won't struggle to remember. For example, if I had a heritage which said "Zirnakaynin elf", how many people would be able to tell me what kind of elf that is from the name?

That's true but there is a middle ground. Artic Elf could be Icestrider Elf or Elf of the Frozen Wilds. Just a slight flourish adds a lot.


Dean HS Jones wrote:
Aashua wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Just to clarify a bit...

Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.

Ah that's great to hear as far as the other races go i was a bit worried some might be left with just one.

Kinda have mixed feelings about the half elf and half orc counting as two of the humans 4 but we'll see what the others are soon. :)

Half-X really needs to be divorced entirely from humans-only imo. If someone wants to play a half-drow/elf or a deathtouched dwarf or infernal Gnome there really needs to be a more elegant and flexible solution to this, and not setting the groundwork up front means either it never happens, as in PF1, or you end up with an ugly bolt-on Frankenstein mechanic later.

I feel that way about elemental/environmental variants, but I am on the fence about Half-X and Planetouched (they dabbled in 3rd Ed, abyssal halflings and infernal dwarves).


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The one bad part about generalized heritages is then they dont apply to half breeds. No planetouched half elves or desert half orcs.

If they add one more step...

Hmm, so heritage (race specific), then regional (race agnostic), that would add an easy bit of customization. The regional feats would be shared, so, not so much page count.

You could put all the arctic, jungle, planetouched, etc crap there.

If thats too many steps, maybe have regional feats be like the old heritage feats. Only selectable at level 1 but by all ancestries.


Data Lore wrote:

The one bad part about generalized heritages is then they dont apply to half breeds. No planetouched half elves or desert half orcs.

If they add one more step...

Hmm, so heritage (race specific), then regional (race agnostic), that would add an easy bit of customization. The regional feats would be shared, so, not so much page count.

You could put all the arctic, jungle, planetouched, etc crap there.

If thats too many steps, maybe have regional feats be like the old heritage feats. Only selectable at level 1 but by all ancestries.

Ah, good point, if as a human you can chose half-elf or arctic, but not both, it would be odd if every other race can take arctic. So your idea of a non-heritage, general feat for ancestry is nice.


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Some Environmental Adaptation general feats would go a long way towards filling the gaps created by the environmentally adapted heritages. Also note they're pretty damn generic. Just let an elf take "Desert Elf" (as Desert Dwarf, but with the Elf trait instead of Dwarf) as appropriate. Golarion won't crumble.

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