Envoy + Star Knight?


Advice

Silver Crusade

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Would this combination be good? Bad? Ugly?

I'm looking to create a heroic battle-leader type with Star Knight, but it feels really redundant to combine that archetype with Soldier.


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Honstly, I would not ever use a 2, 4, 6 replacing archetype with envoy (or solarian). You lost the class's defining abilities almost entirely until level 8.


You're basically getting nothing from the envoy until level 8. The soldier, an exocortec mechanic, a spellcaster, even an operative would all be much better choices. Especially since the smite works with trick attack.

Silver Crusade

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Garretmander wrote:
You're basically getting nothing from the envoy until level 8. The soldier, an exocortec mechanic, a spellcaster, even an operative would all be much better choices. Especially since the smite works with trick attack.

Wouldn't wearing heavy armor negatively impact the Operative's stealth? Rogues in Pathfinder don't really clomp around in plate armor. And an Operative really wouldn't get much use out of a dragonglaive or meteor glaive, they have to use knives and stuff, right?

Would it work with a Soldier? I've looked at that combo before but it still feels redundant: one of the whole points of being a Star Knight is getting heavy armor, but Soldiers get that right out of the box.


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Stealth is something many operatives do, but not in any way required for all operatives. Additionally, armor check penalties in Starfinder are not that large. What an operative would lose from heavy armor, that I think is more significant as a cost, is the use of evasion.

Operatives do need to use certain weapons in order to use trick attack, and their later-level multiattacking ability, yes. Many of the melee ones are knives. A glaive is definitely not on the list, and if you can't find anything you like on the list, you would be losing out on major class features.

A soldier Star Knight would definitely work. Heavy armor gets replaced with a fortification ability that is not that great, but you do get the other abilities.

The thing is, soldiers give up much less than a lot of other classes, in order to take an archetype, because the balance in what the different classes lose by taking archetypes is honestly pretty awful.

Silver Crusade

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It's just that I'm trying to design a Knight of Golarion, and I feel like if I DON'T take Star Knight then the only connection the character has to that group is my say-so. To me, fluff feels weak if it's not backed up by crunch. Christopher Hitchens may have been a tool, but he hit the nail on the head when he said "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Also, wouldn't a mystic be severely hampered by Star Knight? A Healer, for example would lose Healer's Bond and Channel Bond, and those are the most important things a Healer DOES, aren't they?


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I don't know how you could consider either of those abilities to be the most important thing. Then again, the most important thing a healer mystic does is be a spellcaster. Generally people who try to be a healer, rather than someone who can heal, end up being pretty disappointed in this system. Healer is not a full time job.

Also, neither of those connection abilities is that strong, even from a healer standpoint. Especially if you intend to be up in the middle of things.

Silver Crusade

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I thought they were the key to functioning like Pathfinder's popular Oradin build: basically being a constant battery of HP for the rest of the party so you don't have to waste your actions on healing and can go up and smite things in the face, for example.


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That's not what those abilities do. One gives you information like the spell Status, and the other turns standard action single target healing channel from touch to range.

Lifelink, which lets you transfer one linked ally's wounds to yourself as a free action at the start of the turn, is the level 3 ability.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
It's just that I'm trying to design a Knight of Golarion, and I feel like if I DON'T take Star Knight then the only connection the character has to that group is my say-so. To me, fluff feels weak if it's not backed up by crunch. Christopher Hitchens may have been a tool, but he hit the nail on the head when he said "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Its an role playing game. Your character's background is your characters background. Not every background is going to manifest itself as some combat mechanic or applicable skill.

Also, I'll note the classes are really, really general. Say you play a Soldier. That already implies some kind of background. Who trained you? Where did you first see combat. That could easily be answered by saying the Star Knights.

Similarly, some Envoys might be considered trained officers. Soldier 1/Envoy X is a great dip, as it gives you heavy armor, and all weapon proficiency. At 3rd grab a weapon specialization, and then at 4th or 5th use mnemonic editor to rearrange your feats a bit better.

Even a straight Human Envoy X, taking heavy armor and weapon proficiency long arms or advanced melee at 1st level sounds like they could be a Star Knight officer to me. Where did you learn to use those weapons and wear that armor? How did you learn tactics and how to get the most out of others? The Star Knights perhaps?

If you want further crunch without needing to take an archetype, just take Profession (Star Knight). Any time a question comes up relating to them or Iomedae, that skill would apply.

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Also, wouldn't a mystic be severely hampered by Star Knight? A Healer, for example would lose Healer's Bond and Channel Bond, and those are the most important things a Healer DOES, aren't they?

That doesn't sound quite right. Healer's Bond would be delayed from 6th level until 9th. Channel Bond would be delayed from 12th to 15th. So you still get them, just at a later level.

Healer's bond is really just the status spell. Its not the end of the world if you don't have it, and if you really want, you could just learn and cast status (which lasts 6 hours at 6th level). In Pathfinder I'd always see GMs asking for a heal check to identify roughly how wounded people were (uninjured, injured, badly injured, etc). Nothing preventing you from using medicine to quickly identify who needs healing or having them simply tell you.

Channel Bond is simply increasing the range on Healing Channel. Healing Channel itself I would argue is fundamental to the Healer, more than the range extension. That combined with Life Link, which only has a 30 foot range anyways.

If there's a tank in the party, you want to be within 30 feet of them already anyways, because Lifelink + Healing Channel as full action equals twice the healing.

Compared to a Solarian missing out on Stellar Rush until 8th level, I think the Mystic has it better off.


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The other important thing to remember is that all of this only starts after people start eating hp damage. That should not be something that always happens, which is why healer as a primary role often leads to disappointed players.


As someone who is playing a Skyfire Centurion + Envoy, I probably also wouldn't recommend Star Knight for the reason of 2, 4, 6, swap. Skyfire is a 4, 6, swap and only having 2 improvisations (Dispiriting Taunt and Universal Expression) has been very limiting to my effectiveness. Granted I did pick a single mind-affecting ability and have been learning the limitations of such.

Now granted, Skyfire's 4 and 6 (combat bond harrying/covering boosts, +4 starship Encourage, and Feat sharing) are very useful on my Envoy. I get to strongly support our Soldier and be a better Captain/Pilot during Starship combat (our team swaps roles to optimize in different ways).

Looking at Star Knight, you could do a similar Intimidate build to mine to take advantage of the level 4 Demoralize + No Penalties Charge, but you'd want to build melee, probably take early Weapon Focus Basic Melee and be more Str focused with a non-Operative weapon. Almost build them like a Solarian. Level 1 will suck with lower Dex and no Heavy Armor (something I went through with only a +1), and you'll be waiting for 4 for your pop off ability.

Silver Crusade

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The more questions I ask the more I realize I have no idea what the heck I'm doing...


HammerJack wrote:
Honstly, I would not ever use a 2, 4, 6 replacing archetype with envoy (or solarian). You lost the class's defining abilities almost entirely until level 8.

I'll be counterpoint to this. I think that taking a 2, 4, 6 replacing archetype works fine with Envoy. Especially if the point of the character is the archetype rather than the base class.

Yes, the Envoy will only have one Envoy Improvisation (the Level 1 one) until Level 8.

But the Envoy still gets a big pile of skill points and a bunch of class skills that would work great with "a heroic battle-leader type" character.

In fact, I think the commander of a Knight of Golarion group would almost certainly not be built on a Soldier frame. Envoy would probably be the best choice for that character build.

Likely less optimal from a mechanics perspective, but not all characters or all players are building to be mechanically ideal.

Silver Crusade

This combo works well with all the Intimidate-boosting items, themes and such that are available out there, thanks to Knight's Challenge. Grim Trophies armor upgrade to apply a -2 damage penalty to shaken creatures, Cruel weapon fusion to apply sickened, Dragonblood theme double duration of shaken. With the Envoy's ability to get a big bonus to Intimidate, you can pretty reliably throw a pretty solid package of debuffs for several rounds.


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Dragonblood theme just adds one round. You want to buy a Ferocity Blazon to double the duration, if you're trying to stack up intimidation.

Silver Crusade

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Dragonblood actually was the idea I had for a theme: She's a vesk who grew up on Absalom Station and grew up woth stroner connections to Iomedae's version of honor than that of the Veskarium, particularly inspired by Iomedae's gold dragon allies like Peace Through Vigilance and Parnoneryx.

Silver Crusade

HammerJack wrote:
Dragonblood theme just adds one round. You want to buy a Ferocity Blazon to double the duration, if you're trying to stack up intimidation.

That's right, I knew I was forgetting something. Leveraging Intimidate has gotten quite viable. Don't forget the improvisation that lets you demoralize when you toss a grenade, also.


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It's important to note that Terrifying Blast is a saving throw to not ve shaken, not an intimidate check to demoralize, so it does not combine with everything.

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