Who's your least favorite god?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Small children, house cats, all very dangerous at level 1.


lemeres wrote:
Derklord wrote:

"He is indifferent to whether his followers are knights in plate mail, goblins wielding dogslicers, or children armed with table knives-anyone willing to put up a fight, no matter how pathetic or pointless, is worth swinging at." Inner Sea Gods pg. 62

Neutral my ass!

Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.


avr wrote:
You know that Pharasma's anger at undead is simply the attitudes of Paizo's founders put into a character in the game, right? There are no deep reasons.

From the outside perspective that we have in the real world looking in, that is entirely true. However, that doesn't change anything within the game itself. I can disagree with Pharasma all I want to outside of the game, but when I enter into the game and am representing a character within it, different rules apply to 'my' perception of the goddess.

I have no problem with people disliking Pharasma in real life. They have their reasons. It just seems a bit ... hypocritical for a character within the game to blatantly disregard her authority on the matter, disobey her rules, and then complain when she enforces those rules. To that end, I disregard their arguments on the matter because their premise falls apart. Let the player complain, but I won't listen to the character.


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avr wrote:
You know that Pharasma's anger at undead is simply the attitudes of Paizo's founders put into a character in the game, right? There are no deep reasons.

"No, not Black Leaf! No, no! I'm going to die!"

Lantern Lodge

Any lawful good deities.

They all oozes of self-rightousness and Holier-than-thou attitude.

I admit Good is not nice, But this does not justify horrible deities like

- Damerrich
- Genshau. A good god of Ignorance ?
- Ragathiel.
- Vildeis.

Dark Archive

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My least favorite god is the one that you like the best.


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ShroudedInLight wrote:

Right, but you see the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of souls also wrote the laws so its fine.

Your sentence is the removal of your memories, personality, class levels, and everything that made you who you are. You are hereby banished to the plane that matched the alignment you no longer represent because every aspect of your personality has been destroyed by the previous process.

NEXT

To be fair, you were only allowed to exist so that you could go through this exact process and serve as source of scorekeeping and fuel. If you don't like it Pharasma has a waiting room for you to sulk in.

RainOfSteel wrote:

I find all claims that gods are Mary Sue or overpowered to be absurd.

I find that the claims of Mary Sue gods map pretty consistently to a picture of a certain person's presumed kinks.

Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Yqatuba wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


I hate all the CG gods who triumph free will, and Asmodeus for trying to stamp it out. Much ado about something that doesn't exist.

But of course they can't decide to act any differently, so it's not their fault.

How do you know there's no free will in Pathfinder? Yes, in reality the DM control's the actions of everyone except the PCs but I mean speaking in universe.

,’:\

Because the idea of free will is incoherent in a deterministic universe (read: in any conceivable universe)? That’s ah, that’s the joke. Nothing to do but laugh or cry. x)

Preach it, brother. There's no point in hating any of the gods, they didn't choose to be that way, and they can't change. Not that you can help hating, them, either.

Zyphus, Harvestman of Souls wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Well, that cinches it. Time to kill Pharasma.

[b]I've been saying this from day ONE! No one listens to me! She's rigged the system, she's behind Aroden's death!

Killing Aroden is so cosmically unimportant that I don't understand why you bother bringing it up. So one god among hundreds in a star system that is one among billions in a galaxy among billions who lived for a few millenia out of aeons was killed? That's considerably less important to Pharasma than your neighbor's gerbil dying is to you. She's probably seen a thousand gods die since Aroden, and maybe she killed a few of them, too.


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doomman47 wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Derklord wrote:

"He is indifferent to whether his followers are knights in plate mail, goblins wielding dogslicers, or children armed with table knives-anyone willing to put up a fight, no matter how pathetic or pointless, is worth swinging at." Inner Sea Gods pg. 62

Neutral my ass!

Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.

Eren Yeager?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
lemeres wrote:


Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.
Eren Yeager?

How??? You have straight peaked my interest on how a small child gets a +7 to damage! Also, I'm in tears reading this. This thread got a little boring for a moment until the gods stepped in, but this just sets it for me. GODS! HOW COULD YOU LET SUCH A SMALL CHILD WRECK SO MUCH???


Slashing grace.


Depends on which rules they're using for young characters. If they're just applying the template, you can get a child to 22 Dex pretty easily. Three levels of unchained rogue later and you're rocking +6 to damage. Another +1 should be straightforward. (And hey, sneak attack!)

If you're using the full rules for young characters from Ultimate Campaign, that's trickier without a +1 agile butter knife.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KyleS wrote:
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
lemeres wrote:


Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.
Eren Yeager?
How??? You have straight peaked my interest on how a small child gets a +7 to damage! Also, I'm in tears reading this. This thread got a little boring for a moment until the gods stepped in, but this just sets it for me. GODS! HOW COULD YOU LET SUCH A SMALL CHILD WRECK SO MUCH???

Do you not have children? As a parent of two children I find +7 to damage a little low, unless that's the modifier BEFORE they're given sugar...


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

This is a fair point. I don't often get beaten on by my girlfriend's three year old. But her laughter apparently attests to this notion of +7 lol.


KyleS wrote:
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
lemeres wrote:


Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.
Eren Yeager?
How??? You have straight peaked my interest on how a small child gets a +7 to damage! Also, I'm in tears reading this. This thread got a little boring for a moment until the gods stepped in, but this just sets it for me. GODS! HOW COULD YOU LET SUCH A SMALL CHILD WRECK SO MUCH???

Unchained rogue gm rules that all unspecified knifes fall under dagger for benefits so they picked up a butter knife and started wreaking havoc.


avr wrote:
You know that Pharasma's anger at undead is simply the attitudes of Paizo's founders put into a character in the game, right? There are no deep reasons.

I mean yeah, that's the out-of-story explanation, but it has to have some reason within the world, even if it is post-hoc.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Killing Aroden is so cosmically unimportant

Truth- some math.

The Empire of Ancient Osiron lasted from -3470AR to 1532 AR. A span of a little over five thousand years.

By contrast, Aroden became a full deity in 1 AR, and vanished in a puff of plot in 4606 AR. Four thousand six hundred years of godhood. Certainly, he existed far longer than that, since he dates to at least Earthfall, but as a full-fledged deity, he only "mattered" in the outer planes for... well. Less time than the dwarves have lived in Highhelm.

Aroden was a serious flash in the pan in deific terms.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
RainOfSteel wrote:
I find all claims that gods are Mary Sue or overpowered to be absurd.
I find that the claims of Mary Sue gods map pretty consistently to a picture of a certain person's presumed kinks.

A certain person and presumed kicks are unknowns in that statement.

Gods are massively powerful beings. If one turns out to be capable and unstoppable in every way, that is not Mary Sue.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What if I don't have a least favorite, what if I think they're all neat in their own way?

What if when something doesn't grok with my worldview as a GM I either change it, de-emphasise it or find a no-prize solution?

I'm imagining a lot of people here who are hating on Pharasma, standing in front of the goddess of birth, death and prophecy being asked to recount their lives to determine which plane their soul belongs to.

Haters: "Okay, I'll tell you but don't judge me..."
Pharasma: "Of course I'm going to judge you, that's what this entire process is for, why do you think we're here? Let's just start at the beginning shall we?"

Like, she even set aside a small part of the Boneyard for adventurers, because she knows those folks tend to bounce in and out of her realm. She knows they're pretty temporary.

Of course she hates undead, they're wrong, they are a perversion of the natural flow of the universe, negative energy literally is the force of entropy that is eating away at the all of existence and these arrogant mortals think they have a right to circumvent the natural order with a few spells and a phylactery? It's blasphemy of the highest order. Get out of here with that noise, kill the skeleman, leave that body to decay and become part of the material of the material.

Dark Archive

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So funnily enough, my least favoured god IS Aroden because Inner Sea Worldguide hyped him too much considering how unimportant he really is in setting :P

Also surprised on Pharasma hate. And I think she is being misunderstood considering she is more of neutral arbiter of whether gods get their quintessence resource to make new outsiders or expand the plane :p


"Least favorite" is a hard call, but I found Abadar to be completely unforgettable until I read about his church's role in the Starfinder core book. That book actually made me consider making my merc soldier an Abadaran because that's who has all the money. Sure, you could probably say that about his church in Pathfinder, but Starfinder made him sound *important*.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

What if I don't have a least favorite, what if I think they're all neat in their own way?

What if when something doesn't grok with my worldview as a GM I either change it, de-emphasise it or find a no-prize solution?

I'm imagining a lot of people here who are hating on Pharasma, standing in front of the goddess of birth, death and prophecy being asked to recount their lives to determine which plane their soul belongs to.

Haters: "Okay, I'll tell you but don't judge me..."
Pharasma: "Of course I'm going to judge you, that's what this entire process is for, why do you think we're here? Let's just start at the beginning shall we?"

Like, she even set aside a small part of the Boneyard for adventurers, because she knows those folks tend to bounce in and out of her realm. She knows they're pretty temporary.

Of course she hates undead, they're wrong, they are a perversion of the natural flow of the universe, negative energy literally is the force of entropy that is eating away at the all of existence and these arrogant mortals think they have a right to circumvent the natural order with a few spells and a phylactery? It's blasphemy of the highest order. Get out of here with that noise, kill the skeleman, leave that body to decay and become part of the material of the material.

But it's cool if I subvert the natural order of things through alternate methods, right? If I find some arcane or alchemical discovery to stop my aging that doesn't make me undead, that's totally okay with Pharasma, right?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

What if I don't have a least favorite, what if I think they're all neat in their own way?

What if when something doesn't grok with my worldview as a GM I either change it, de-emphasise it or find a no-prize solution?

I'm imagining a lot of people here who are hating on Pharasma, standing in front of the goddess of birth, death and prophecy being asked to recount their lives to determine which plane their soul belongs to.

Haters: "Okay, I'll tell you but don't judge me..."
Pharasma: "Of course I'm going to judge you, that's what this entire process is for, why do you think we're here? Let's just start at the beginning shall we?"

Like, she even set aside a small part of the Boneyard for adventurers, because she knows those folks tend to bounce in and out of her realm. She knows they're pretty temporary.

Of course she hates undead, they're wrong, they are a perversion of the natural flow of the universe, negative energy literally is the force of entropy that is eating away at the all of existence and these arrogant mortals think they have a right to circumvent the natural order with a few spells and a phylactery? It's blasphemy of the highest order. Get out of here with that noise, kill the skeleman, leave that body to decay and become part of the material of the material.

But it's cool if I subvert the natural order of things through alternate methods, right? If I find some arcane or alchemical discovery to stop my aging that doesn't make me undead, that's totally okay with Pharasma, right?

Has nothing to do with aging and everything to do with messing with the soul.

The only ones who care about non-undead immortals are Inevitables, and no one likes them.


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Despite the fact that plenty of undead don't mess with the soul at all. Throwing a thousand year old carcass whose soul is well and judged into the neg energy plane produces a zombie all the same. The NE Plane is just a giant spanner in the works as a whole. Fully natural part of celestial clockwork that...just makes undead en masse.

Honestly I wouldn't blame Pharasma for being inconsistent as much as I'd blame Paizo for having a cosmology that's a complete mess of patchworked outsiders and grandfathered bits from 3.x.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Despite the fact that plenty of undead don't mess with the soul at all. Throwing a thousand year old carcass whose soul is well and judged into the neg energy plane produces a zombie all the same. The NE Plane is just a giant spanner in the works as a whole. Fully natural part of celestial clockwork that...just makes undead en masse.

Honestly I wouldn't blame Pharasma for being inconsistent as much as I'd blame Paizo for having a cosmology that's a complete mess of patchworked outsiders and grandfathered bits from 3.x.

On the whole, each undead is animated through the shackling of a soul to the corpse. How you want to view that is up to you, but there is a reason most people can't be resurrected when their corpse is an animated undead. We aren't told the nitty-gritty of what really happens to the soul, and all the suffering it goes through being infused with negative energy (the anathema to its origin, the positive energy plane), but I think it is pretty bad if Pharasma takes such a hard stance on it.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Despite the fact that plenty of undead don't mess with the soul at all. Throwing a thousand year old carcass whose soul is well and judged into the neg energy plane produces a zombie all the same. The NE Plane is just a giant spanner in the works as a whole. Fully natural part of celestial clockwork that...just makes undead en masse.

Honestly I wouldn't blame Pharasma for being inconsistent as much as I'd blame Paizo for having a cosmology that's a complete mess of patchworked outsiders and grandfathered bits from 3.x.

On the whole, each undead is animated through the shackling of a soul to the corpse. How you want to view that is up to you, but there is a reason most people can't be resurrected when their corpse is an animated undead. We aren't told the nitty-gritty of what really happens to the soul, and all the suffering it goes through being infused with negative energy (the anathema to its origin, the positive energy plane), but I think it is pretty bad if Pharasma takes such a hard stance on it.

I'd honestly want a source that mentions that undead are shackled souls in a rotting carcass because...many aren't. Rules say only some undead (mainly incorporeal but also some like vampires) are/have souls, shackled or otherwise. Most of them, from liches (who have their soul in a box somewhere) to basic zombies (rotting corpse brought up with negative energy) have no soul to speak of.

You can try to fenagle a reason as to why you can't rez a guy who got animated but more or less it begins and ends with my earlier point: legacy and/or the cosmology making no sense. Making a mockery of life with the negative energy plane is probably unnatural, but so are a bazillion other things that Pharasma is ostentatiously down with (she tolerates friggin Daemons, aka the yahoos who actually do throw irrevocable wrenches in the cycle of souls). If there were any broad faction that deserves her special dislike it would be them. Even if undead did mess with souls in some way, her attitude should basically be the same as any other alchemical/magical immortality ("Eh, I'll get my due eventually when they crumble/die")

Dark Archive

Ye kinda wrong there though, psychopomps hate all kind of immortality AND Pharasma gives devils and demons special chance to attempt to convince souls judged to Abaddon to sell their souls to Hell or Abyss instead as final chance to avoid going to Abaddon.


CorvusMask wrote:
Ye kinda wrong there though, psychopomps hate all kind of immortality AND Pharasma gives devils and demons special chance to attempt to convince souls judged to Abaddon to sell their souls to Hell or Abyss instead as final chance to avoid going to Abaddon.

The latter of which spits directly in the face of her impartial judge schtick. She's accepted Daemons as part of the natural order for whatever reason, you don't get to be the impartial judge if you do that on one hand on then with the other try to convince other outsiders to subvert your judgement (and we're back to 'the cosmology makes no sense again').

And Psychopomps aren't Pharasma herself, they can hate immortality of all kinds all they want, but she herself has no particular ill will toward them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Ye kinda wrong there though, psychopomps hate all kind of immortality AND Pharasma gives devils and demons special chance to attempt to convince souls judged to Abaddon to sell their souls to Hell or Abyss instead as final chance to avoid going to Abaddon.

The latter of which spits directly in the face of her impartial judge schtick. She's accepted Daemons as part of the natural order for whatever reason, you don't get to be the impartial judge if you do that on one hand on then with the other try to convince other outsiders to subvert your judgement (and we're back to 'the cosmology makes no sense again').

And Psychopomps aren't Pharasma herself, they can hate immortality of all kinds all they want, but she herself has no particular ill will toward them.

She understands what mortals conceive of as Immortal rarely is. Usually it's just postponing the inevitable. Often at the end of an adventurer's sword. Everybody goes to their appointed place eventually.

Mindless undead are still animated by negative energy, a reversal of the natural flow of the universe.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Ye kinda wrong there though, psychopomps hate all kind of immortality AND Pharasma gives devils and demons special chance to attempt to convince souls judged to Abaddon to sell their souls to Hell or Abyss instead as final chance to avoid going to Abaddon.

The latter of which spits directly in the face of her impartial judge schtick. She's accepted Daemons as part of the natural order for whatever reason, you don't get to be the impartial judge if you do that on one hand on then with the other try to convince other outsiders to subvert your judgement (and we're back to 'the cosmology makes no sense again').

And Psychopomps aren't Pharasma herself, they can hate immortality of all kinds all they want, but she herself has no particular ill will toward them.

Mindless undead are still animated by negative energy, a reversal of the natural flow of the universe.

Tell that to the Negative Energy Plane. Perfectly natural part of the universe and animates any corpse chucked into it and even makes junk like Nightshades or...whatever the other Neg Energy inhabitants are called. And then there's basically every other abomination against the natural order and/or sanity (nearly anything tagged as an Aberration to say nothing of Old Ones related stuff) which are fine by Big P too. Cosmology's just a mess.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Tell that to the Negative Energy Plane. Perfectly natural part of the universe and animates any corpse chucked into it and even makes junk like Nightshades or...whatever the other Neg Energy inhabitants are called. And then there's basically every other abomination against the natural order and/or sanity (nearly anything tagged as an Aberration to say nothing of Old Ones related stuff) which are fine by Big P too. Cosmology's just a mess.

Pharasma is not in charge of the Negative Energy realm, nor do the souls she has oversight over actually gravitate to that area. She is concerned with the SOUL'S natural cycle, not the elemental forces of the multiverse itself. She doesn't care about things outside of her jurisdiction.

I am still working on a source for what happens to a soul when its corpse is animated as an undead. I am away from my materials for a bit, so you will have to be patient. The best I can manage right now is that a lot of the beliefs that follow Pharasma's church revolve around undead desecrating the memory of the flesh and hindering the soul's journey.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Ye kinda wrong there though, psychopomps hate all kind of immortality AND Pharasma gives devils and demons special chance to attempt to convince souls judged to Abaddon to sell their souls to Hell or Abyss instead as final chance to avoid going to Abaddon.

The latter of which spits directly in the face of her impartial judge schtick. She's accepted Daemons as part of the natural order for whatever reason, you don't get to be the impartial judge if you do that on one hand on then with the other try to convince other outsiders to subvert your judgement (and we're back to 'the cosmology makes no sense again').

And Psychopomps aren't Pharasma herself, they can hate immortality of all kinds all they want, but she herself has no particular ill will toward them.

Mindless undead are still animated by negative energy, a reversal of the natural flow of the universe.
Tell that to the Negative Energy Plane. Perfectly natural part of the universe and animates any corpse chucked into it and even makes junk like Nightshades or...whatever the other Neg Energy inhabitants are called. And then there's basically every other abomination against the natural order and/or sanity (nearly anything tagged as an Aberration to say nothing of Old Ones related stuff) which are fine by Big P too. Cosmology's just a mess.

The Negative Energy plane is entropy, it is anti-life, it is what wears away at the universe. The universe flows out into the negative energy plane eventually, but for that energy to flow back into the universe in the form of undead is anethema.

I have a Lawful Neutral Necromancer named Hollow Graves who is in full agreement that mindless undead that are under control are not inherently unethical. But Hollow Graves is something of a Utilitarian. However Pharasma and her church are something closer to a Kantian philosophy, the creation and existence of undead is by its very nature wrong, in the same way that many people believe lying is always wrong. They are different ontological positions.

I think the problem is that Game Masters and players believe there is an objective truth to the game universe and the Gods should somehow represent those truths. However, the gods have their own subjective biases as well. Including Pharasma, Salim Ghaddifar would certainly think so, but the subjective bias of a being infinitely old who has seen both backwards and forwards through time, is decidedly different than the pinhole subjectivity of mortal conceptions of truth.


The Maelstrom wears away at the universe, the Negative Energy Plane is just there. Though, it might not be later down the line. It's the only major plane that Planar Adventures lists as having no petitioners (which would slow or halt decay from the Maelstrom), which raises suspicion on Pharasma's policies regarding something stated to be essential for the process of life.* If this pans out, Pharasma's hatred of undead could completely erase her status as deity of life and death, because those two words wouldn't mean anything anymore. Which would at least be more interesting than a jerk you need to listen to for tautological reasons.

*full quote:
Planar Adventures, P.113 wrote:
Without negative energy there would be no natural progression from life to death, and no draw to pull soul energy from the Positive Energy Plane in the first place. Without the Negative Energy Plane, life could not exist, for its existence defines life

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Sideromancer wrote:

The Maelstrom wears away at the universe, the Negative Energy Plane is just there. Though, it might not be later down the line. It's the only major plane that Planar Adventures lists as having no petitioners (which would slow or halt decay from the Maelstrom), which raises suspicion on Pharasma's policies regarding something stated to be essential for the process of life.* If this pans out, Pharasma's hatred of undead could completely erase her status as deity of life and death, because those two words wouldn't mean anything anymore. Which would at least be more interesting than a jerk you need to listen to for tautological reasons.

** spoiler omitted **

The idea is that life moves to death, not that death moves back to unlife. Yes the maelstrom decays the material, but the negative energy plane is the gravitational pull for souls sprung forth from the positive energy plane. Negative energy should not be flowing back the other way.

To quote a character from Scrubs:
"Dead things should stay dead."


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I have a philosphical question, if the Maelstrom is eating all the outer planes what happens if it succeeds?

Hear me out. If nothing happens to the positive and negative energy planes, then other than the extinction of all non-chaotic neutral outsiders does anything bad really happen?

Because if it doesn't, then Pharsma is subjecting the petitioners to torture purely to prolong the gods various play-pens since the gods do not need to camp out inside of any specific outer plane.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ShroudedInLight wrote:

I have a philosphical question, if the Maelstrom is eating all the outer planes what happens if it succeeds?

Hear me out. If nothing happens to the positive and negative energy planes, then other than the extinction of all non-chaotic neutral outsiders does anything bad really happen?

Because if it doesn't, then Pharsma is subjecting the petitioners to torture purely to prolong the gods various play-pens since the gods do not need to camp out inside of any specific outer plane.

On a long enough timeline everything gets destroyed, does that mean that existence loses all meaning because it is finite?

Pharasma is the goddess of Death, of all beings in the multiverse she is most acutely aware of the importance of finity.


The Maelstrom is also part of the cycle. It frays the edges of the planes. The planar quintessence then becomes new souls.


Green Smashomancer wrote:

Desna. She comes across as the one god one developer really liked and bugged the rest of the crew to put her in the game, then she got all of the exposure they could possibly cram in to golarion books.

It doesn't help that her whole theme is this very vague "freedom" thing, but also luck for some reason? Besides the fact that it's a powerful domain along with the travel one, I don't see the two having anything in common. It feels more like a miscellaneous pile of traits than anything else.

THIS.


Erastil! I've read most materials on him and he shouldn't be listed as good. He is actually evil in how he operates. His worshippers are encouraged to build fences around their town and put up the no trespassing sign. It's been stated several times the world can and is going to hell and he doesn't care as long as his worshippers are safe in their own little towns. He gets the least amount of Paladins and even then they are encouraged to stay home.


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I always felt like Pharasma was basically just GM to a big game that the rest of the deities are playing. She's doing her best to be impartial and stuff, and judge fairly but she's got biases of her own, and some jerk players who deliberately push her buttons, so she does make biased calls sometimes.

I've been growing to be okay-ish with Sarenrae as time goes by, but her "True Neutral" murder cult is still a problem. As people above have said, she talks a lot about redemption, but doesn't actually seem to be very good at it. She let the cult of the Dawn-"Agree with me or I'll kill you"-flower go unchecked for way too long. And I'm only assuming she finally got around to telling them to chill because of PF2's change in which alignments she accepts for her clerics. Maybe they've actually just decided to go with "Nah, her murder cult is toooootally Neutral Good (and if you disagree, they're coming for you)". Mostly though: Yeah, Sarenrae's okay. I don't like her worshippers.

I don't dislike Calistria, but I do dislike the kind of characters she tends to inspire. For every one decently-made one, there's a hundred amateur seductresses and horrifically evil psychopaths insisting that they're chaotic neutral and that they're just following the revenge code.

Asmodeus is definitely a mary sue, but it helps somewhat that he's his own sue, in a way. The whole Ihys story is a lot funnier if you assume Asmodeus is lying through his teeth about it all to make himself sound more awesome. Same with all his "Exactly as planned" stuff.

I think my least favourite is actually Cayden Cailean, because he's... well, he's kind of dull. He's the joke character of the roster, and sure the accidental god schtick is funny, but it's all about him, and leaves his faithful as being just a mix of stereotypical adventurers, and friendly drinkers. Nothing really inspiring. He was the first deity I ever had a character worship (though in retrospect, she would have gone for Besmara if I'd known Besmara existed at the time), so it feels awkward to call him my personal bottom of the barrel, but oh well.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Erastil! I've read most materials on him and he shouldn't be listed as good. He is actually evil in how he operates. His worshippers are encouraged to build fences around their town and put up the no trespassing sign. It's been stated several times the world can and is going to hell and he doesn't care as long as his worshippers are safe in their own little towns. He gets the least amount of Paladins and even then they are encouraged to stay home.

Evil is hurting other people for your own benefit or amusement. None of this is hurting people in any way. Choosing to help people is good, and choosing to help your neighbors instead of strangers is good.


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I'm not a fan of Desna and Nocticula, for the aforementioned "reeks of writer favoritism" points.

I was pretty intrigued by Nocticula... until I found out that she was the goddess of succubi. Redemption is only for the sexy demons, I suppose. Ew.


Xenocrat wrote:
and choosing to help your neighbors instead of strangers is good.

: (


Thebazilly wrote:

I'm not a fan of Desna and Nocticula, for the aforementioned "reeks of writer favoritism" points.

I was pretty intrigued by Nocticula... until I found out that she was the goddess of succubi. Redemption is only for the sexy demons, I suppose. Ew.

Agreed. As far as deific character development, I'd rather see, say, Mazmezz redeemed (c'mon, we need a non-evil insect patron) than "Hey guys, have you read The Dresden Files recently?".


Xenocrat wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

Erastil! I've read most materials on him and he shouldn't be listed as good. He is actually evil in how he operates. His worshippers are encouraged to build fences around their town and put up the no trespassing sign. It's been stated several times the world can and is going to hell and he doesn't care as long as his worshippers are safe in their own little towns. He gets the least amount of Paladins and even then they are encouraged to stay home.

Evil is hurting other people for your own benefit or amusement. None of this is hurting people in any way. Choosing to help people is good, and choosing to help your neighbors instead of strangers is good.

Except he takes this to the extreme. He'd rather have his priests hire adventurers to solve a problem just outside of the immediate town and hope they get killed so they don't have to pay up. This is from a Lawful Good god? The attitude extends even to his few Paladins. I've read Neutral and evil deities that show more honor and bravery then him. I mean think about this. You are a Paladin of Erastil. You hear of a rampaging dragon over in the next town. Your response isn't let's put this evil beast down and save people. No your response is their are others who can do this, I'm staying home to protect my town.

His alignment is just wrong for his actions and words. I mean helping to protect your town isn't bad. It is when that's all you care about. A monster attacking another town is someone else's job not yours. That isn't Lawful or goodbut selfish neutral.


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doomman47 wrote:
We had a small child in our campaign once who did 1d2+7 with a butter knife.

See? That is enough for the kid to take out the party wizard if you don't stop him.

I am sure we have all seen our share of lvl 1 wizards taken out by a stray goblin. Same principle- just a little less green, and a little more devious.


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

,’:\

Because the idea of free will is incoherent in a deterministic universe (read: in any conceivable universe)? That’s ah, that’s the joke. Nothing to do but laugh or cry. x)

Though obviously forcing people to act against their preferences is a Bad Thing, and the idea of letting people act on the conclusions they come to, commonly referred to as allowing people to exercise their free will, is a less bad thing (in most circumstances).

Not to necro, but the real-world universe isn't deterministic, it's stochastic. God plays with dice, according to our current understanding of physics.

ShroudedInLight wrote:

I have a philosphical question, if the Maelstrom is eating all the outer planes what happens if it succeeds?

Hear me out. If nothing happens to the positive and negative energy planes, then other than the extinction of all non-chaotic neutral outsiders does anything bad really happen?

Because if it doesn't, then Pharsma is subjecting the petitioners to torture purely to prolong the gods various play-pens since the gods do not need to camp out inside of any specific outer plane.

I'd guess that that's when the material plane pops open and Azathoth wakes up ;)

Scarab Sages

Xenocrat wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

Erastil! I've read most materials on him and he shouldn't be listed as good. He is actually evil in how he operates. His worshippers are encouraged to build fences around their town and put up the no trespassing sign. It's been stated several times the world can and is going to hell and he doesn't care as long as his worshippers are safe in their own little towns. He gets the least amount of Paladins and even then they are encouraged to stay home.

Evil is hurting other people for your own benefit or amusement. None of this is hurting people in any way. Choosing to help people is good, and choosing to help your neighbors instead of strangers is good.

While I don't at all think Erastil is evil, this is not an either/or choice.


neonWitch wrote:
Not to necro, but the real-world universe isn't deterministic, it's stochastic. God plays with dice, according to our current understanding of physics.

My understanding of current physics is shaky at best, so bear with me if I say something stupid. But I was under the impression that these days the most common interpretation of quantum mechanics was macroscopic decoherence. Not that the majority is always right, but, when a conversation goes mostly over my head I have to side with the consensus.

Collapse is the only acausal phenomenon in all of physics that I'm aware of (though, again, I'm no expert) and that it exists is hotly contested. I think for now I'll go on believing that the world's deterministic . . .

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derek Dalton wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

Erastil! I've read most materials on him and he shouldn't be listed as good. He is actually evil in how he operates. His worshippers are encouraged to build fences around their town and put up the no trespassing sign. It's been stated several times the world can and is going to hell and he doesn't care as long as his worshippers are safe in their own little towns. He gets the least amount of Paladins and even then they are encouraged to stay home.

Evil is hurting other people for your own benefit or amusement. None of this is hurting people in any way. Choosing to help people is good, and choosing to help your neighbors instead of strangers is good.

Except he takes this to the extreme. He'd rather have his priests hire adventurers to solve a problem just outside of the immediate town and hope they get killed so they don't have to pay up. This is from a Lawful Good god? The attitude extends even to his few Paladins. I've read Neutral and evil deities that show more honor and bravery then him. I mean think about this. You are a Paladin of Erastil. You hear of a rampaging dragon over in the next town. Your response isn't let's put this evil beast down and save people. No your response is their are others who can do this, I'm staying home to protect my town.

His alignment is just wrong for his actions and words. I mean helping to protect your town isn't bad. It is when that's all you care about. A monster attacking another town is someone else's job not yours. That isn't Lawful or goodbut selfish neutral.

I have no idea where you got this interpretation of Erastil. Yes Erastil values family and community. But an Erastilian doesn't pray for the death of the adventurers they've hired to protect the town, they hope for the adventurer's success, and gladly pay because an Erastilian's word is their bond, as spoken contract is stronger than anything you could put on paper.

If a neighboring town is being terrorized by a dragon then an Erastilian paladin knows that the neighboring town is their neighbor too. Morally they should defend their neighbor, but on a practical level a dragon powerful enough to threaten a neighboring town is powerful enough to affect theirs too.

Erastil doesn't call many paladins, because he doesn't want to tear people away from their homes and families for a life of risk and danger. But sometimes it's necessary. I've always seen it as tragic, Erastilian paladins who at times are called away from their families to keep the world safe. Or who forego family entirely in order to protect their communities (probably being set-up romantically by many a nosy neighbor, mother, aunt or sibling, for hilarious sit-com shenanigans).

Now, some worshippers are imperfect, some more conservative members of Erastil's congregation would be more interested in protecting their own small community and way of life than anything. They have more strict interpretations of things. This can be expressed as xenophobia, and you're right it's bad.

But Erastil welcomes everyone into his community, everybody has something to contribute. When worshippers make people feel unwelcome in a community, they aren't really following Erastil's tenets.

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