Who's your least favorite god?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
If the literal Goddess of Death and Rebirth, AKA the ultimate authority figure of where souls go and who gets to judge them, tells you not to mess with the cycle of souls, and you don't listen to her, how are you justified in complaining about how she handles HER business?
Let me answer your question with a question.

Let's see... Full blown Goddess who is one of the most powerful beings in existence residing over that fate and the process of souls through life and death that literally make up all of reality.... vs some jackass on a continent on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

In general, my least favorite are the samey gods of the same alignments. Golarion has a ton of thematic redundancy in its pantheon, with each alignment having a couple of major gods (plus all the minors and powers), some of which have tremendous overlap in theme. Torag & Iomedae are the same god, with a bit of different flavor text (humans v dwarves, ascended v ancient). Lamashtu and Rovagug fill the same role (Demon God). Gozreh & Nethys are uncaring forces who have narrow areas of interest, and samey backgrounds (multiple facets, proliferation of their theme, etc.). Shelyn and Sarenrae, like Torag and Iomedae, are the same thing. It feels like the multiple Campaign Settings that the devs mushed together to create Golarion kept their coolest deities, regardless if they were overlapping with one of the other gods coming in. The more unique gods (Erastil, Calistria, Zon-Kuthon as examples) make much better stories in my opinion.

Specifically, though, my least favorite god of the Core 20 would have to be Abadar. Firstly, I always write and say it as Adabar, and didn't realize I was wrong until a podcast or something a couple years ago. Secondly, his bureaucrat schtick is annoying (whereas his master of the first vault role is EXCELLENT). Tax collectors are the historic stereotypes of crooks, cheats, thugs, and grafters all rolled up into a government backed office that carried the weight of the local militia if needed. These tropes are typically reserved for mustache twirling robber barons, not a god that fields paladins. Also, taming the wilds for !PROFIT! still feels like a whole bad guy arc.


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True. Just because they're cosmically powerful doesn't mean you have to like them. And Pharasma is either a jerk or a cog in an even bigger jerk machine.

The Exchange

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archmagi1 wrote:
Specifically, though, my least favorite god of the Core 20 would have to be Abadar. Firstly, I always write and say it as Adabar, and didn't realize I was wrong until a podcast or something a couple years ago. Secondly, his bureaucrat schtick is annoying (whereas his master of the first vault role is EXCELLENT). Tax collectors are the historic stereotypes of crooks, cheats, thugs, and grafters all rolled up into a government backed office that carried the weight of the local militia if needed. These tropes are typically reserved for mustache twirling robber barons, not a god that fields paladins. Also, taming the wilds for !PROFIT! still feels like a whole bad guy arc.

See, this is one of the things I really like a lot about much of Paizo’s lore. They take existing tropes and play with them. Usually not a direct inversion, but a twist on the normal.

Abadarians may be tax collectors, but they are scrupulously honest about it and don’t line their own pockets. The temples lend money (rather than provide handouts) but always at a fair rate, not an extortionate one.


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Rysky wrote:
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
If the literal Goddess of Death and Rebirth, AKA the ultimate authority figure of where souls go and who gets to judge them, tells you not to mess with the cycle of souls, and you don't listen to her, how are you justified in complaining about how she handles HER business?
Let me answer your question with a question.
Let's see... Full blown Goddess who is one of the most powerful beings in existence residing over that fate and the process of souls through life and death that literally make up all of reality.... vs some jackass on a continent on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere.

A jackass on two continents on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere. Which makes all of the difference. :P

Honestly, though, Rysky, I'm having a hard time seeing what point you're trying to make. My point was that being powerful and in charge doesn't mean you get to dictate right and wrong. I'm not seeing anything in what you wrote that rebuts that, or, indeed, addresses it. ,':\


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

A jackass on two continents on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere. Which makes all of the difference. :P

Honestly, though, Rysky, I'm having a hard time seeing what point you're trying to make. My point was that being powerful and in charge doesn't mean you get to dictate right and wrong. I'm not seeing anything in what you wrote that rebuts that, or, indeed, addresses it. ,':\

Honestly, the one that decides right and wrong is the one above all, aka the DM. If he says evil, then it is evil, if he says good, then it is good.

With this said, she being a goddess that took part on the creation of the material plane and its beings, she being considered the judge and given a position of authority by the others such beings due to they believing she will be fair and so on.

Gives her a hell of good position to be, in the view of a DM, the one that decides right and wrong and thus have her actions always be justified, even if one cant understand how they are.


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archmagi1 wrote:
In general, my least favorite are the samey gods of the same alignments. Golarion has a ton of thematic redundancy in its pantheon, with each alignment having a couple of major gods (plus all the minors and powers), some of which have tremendous overlap in theme. Torag & Iomedae are the same god, with a bit of different flavor text (humans v dwarves, ascended v ancient).

And in slightly earlier history, Aroden seemed like a more specialized version of Abadar. (Hey, maybe Abadar got tired of having competition, and finally decided to do something about it? . . .)

archmagi1 wrote:
Lamashtu and Rovagug fill the same role (Demon God).

Not so much -- Lamashtu is definitely Demonic, and thereby deeply invested in the ongoing corruption of mortals to ensure a more-or-less steady flow of them into the Abyss; but Rovagug is Qlippothic, and thereby just wants to get rid of them to stop the flow of trash into the Abyss; Rovagug's corruption of mortals, to the extent that it occurs, is just for the purpose of trying to destroy all mortals.

archmagi1 wrote:
Gozreh & Nethys are uncaring forces who have narrow areas of interest, and samey backgrounds (multiple facets, proliferation of their theme, etc.).

Again, not so much -- while both are uncaring about morality, their areas of interest are quite different and often opposed.

archmagi1 wrote:
Shelyn and Sarenrae, like Torag and Iomedae, are the same thing. {. . .}

Now here's where you're reallywrong: While Sarenrae makes a big deal about redemption, Shelyn actually gets some done, while Sarenrae's church, or large parts of it at least, actually seems to be going overall in the opposite direction.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
If the literal Goddess of Death and Rebirth, AKA the ultimate authority figure of where souls go and who gets to judge them, tells you not to mess with the cycle of souls, and you don't listen to her, how are you justified in complaining about how she handles HER business?
Let me answer your question with a question.
Let's see... Full blown Goddess who is one of the most powerful beings in existence residing over that fate and the process of souls through life and death that literally make up all of reality.... vs some jackass on a continent on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere.

A jackass on two continents on a backwater planet out in the middle of nowhere. Which makes all of the difference. :P

Honestly, though, Rysky, I'm having a hard time seeing what point you're trying to make. My point was that being powerful and in charge doesn't mean you get to dictate right and wrong. I'm not seeing anything in what you wrote that rebuts that, or, indeed, addresses it. ,':\

You tried to make a point of "being powerful doesn't mean you get to dictate right and wrong".... by comparing a Primordial Ur Goddess that oversees that Fate of the entire cosmos to an effectively nobody mortal as far as the multiverse is concerned.

Pharasma knows the rules of the Universe on how things works and why, and maybe even wrote some of them.


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

Let me answer your question with a question.

If Genghis Khan, the literal emperor of the Mongol Empire, AKA the ultimate authority figure of the time, tells you to give him all your stuff, and you don't listen to him, how are you justified in complaining about how he handles HIS business? It's HIS empire, yo, doesn't matter if you never got a say in how it was set up.

I dismiss your question as a false equivocation. Pharasma is a Goddess and Genghis Khan is a mortal, a nobody in the grand scheme of things. Whether or not you agree with it or not, something that has the power over life, death, and the eternal fate of your soul has the power and authority to dictate what is right and what is wrong, even if it doesn't fit your concept of morality. In Pathfinder, there is a higher power that dictates good, evil, chaos, and law, but not right or wrong.

DeathlessOne wrote:
Woah now, hold up a second. What's this about moral arguments? Pharasma isn't moral; I don't care what purpose she has for the cycle of death that I might be screwing up by necromancing. The only thing that factors into my moral calculus is whether I'm hurting people or not hurting people.

Pharasma is True Neutral but that doesn't make her immoral or without morality. She has a job to do and she is the arbitrator of how it is going to be done. She is the final authority on it (leave the DM/GM out of this) and you don't have the standing to argue with her. You can use whatever arguments you want against her, pleading that she doesn't have the right to do what she wants, and your arguments will fall on deaf ears. She has the power and she can do as she pleases. Good/Evil, Law/Chaos, those are all arguments that might sway other gods, but to Pharasma, those are just tools necessary to balance the scales.

I apologize if what I am saying seems repetitive. It really does just come down to who has the most power in the situation. This is not the real world. This is not a democracy. This is Pathfinder and you really can't argue with a god unless they intend to humor you. Their will shapes reality, not yours.


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To be honest, most of the female goddesses are pretty poor. So many of them are overly sexualised and come across as mary sue's or are trying way to hard to be Strong Independant Women. A few of the others are reduced to less interesting versions of prior male deities.

Sarenrae, second rate ihys, beautiful fire goddess of redemption who murders thousands without warning. A complex fire deity of judgment and redemption a la the abrahamic god could have been really intetesting, it would have also mitigated against Asmodeus' villain sue tendencies mentioned by others. Instead we have a bland and boring fire goddess.

Iomedae, second rate aroden and a joan of ark stand in. Generic beautiful warrior woman. Boring. The golarion pantheon notably misses an all father deity. Had that been aroden, iomedae could have been in a really intetesting position as she tried to fill a gap in the pantheon she was not trained for, keeping order amongst squabbling deities. For the role she actually got i think olheon does it better.

Callistra- beautiful sexually liberated vengence goddess. More of the wasp stuff would be interesting but at the moment she is just another take on aphrodite.

Sheyln-beautiful sexually liberated love goddess, venus to callistras aphrodite. Interesting visual ascetic. Otherwise v generic. Merged her with calkistra in my home game, made ZK her former husband instead of brother. Results in a more complex and interesting relationships imo.

Desna-beautiful sexually liberated dream goddess. As others have mentioned feels very suey. Black butterfly is imo a better take on the same character. Replaced her with bb in my home game.

Noctila- beautiful, sexually liberated demon goddess of seduction. Reads like something from a bad teen fan fic. The concept of her redemption is cringey imo. The rape demon assassin bikini babe who is grimdark evil and kills other demon lords but also somehow potentially good. Makes no sense. Hell, lamashtu makes for a much better candidate for remption imo. Although i think redeeming demons generally is not a particularly good idea.

Urgathoa- beautiful, sexually liberated goddess of death and plague. Would be much more interesting if she wasnt so outgunned by the goddess of death. Also having the goddess of undeath have obvious paralells to necrophillia was not a wise choice imo. Makes her harder to use in games which do not want that kind of ewwwww. Would have been better as a daemon harbringer like folca imo.

The queens of night. Silly name, the new fluff also feels like the devs overcompensating for calling them whores earlier. I actually much preferred that title the juxtiposition spoke to their outsider status within hell's hierarchy. Now it sounds like they all keep tumblr blogs about superwholock. They are also each basically less powerful versions of noctila. I run them as the gangsters of hell. It works much better, whore queen alludes nicely to being purveyors of vice and powerful ganglords.

Pharsma- not a sexy trope! Sadly so over powered she is awfully bland and defangs urgathoa. Bit disappointed there is not a bench of death gods like a divine version of the supreme court deciding the most difficult cases together. That would have been cool.

The egyptian gods do not fit well. I love the art, like the interesting variety, love wadjet, but many of them seem to clash with the core 20- Osirus and ra with pharsma and sarenrae especially.

The non humanoid demon goddesses are actually very good. As is Brigh, although why they gendered the machine god at all is beyond me. Love the complex interplay between gyronna, that hag demon and baba yaga. Great stuff.

The female eldest are well done. The superabundance of sexy goddesses does rob the magdh of some oomph imo. As a poison ivy rip off she should be a capricious sexually liberated beauty, but when most other goddesses are too she loses some impact.

Lamashtu is well done. Big shame there is no gaia/dementer/melora analogue to counter her.

The female empyreal lords are much better. Ansoletta is v cool. I like the repect denanding matron figure, reminds me of lady hale. Good example of a strong independant female who does not read like adolescent fantasy. Likewise chafali and eritrice. The story of eritrice is lovely and pure without being weak. Immonhiel also reads like a potentially real goddess and not a rip off wonder woman. Shei, videleis and zohls are also all interesting characters who are neither walking sex objects nor amazons.

Arshea is yet another liberated sex goddess.would be fine but we have loads already. Falaya is just iomedae with more beyonce. Jalaijatali reads like an afro version of sheyln, tbh the tokenism is insulting. Likewise pulura who is just an asian desna.

It is a real shame because the empyreal lords show that paizo can do female divinities properly, i dont know why so many of the more common deities are the clumsy female character tropes.

I also think it is a real shame there is no major god of the hearth or motherhood and the major fertility goddess is a demon. Considering how important motherhood is to all societies this seems like a massive oversight imo.

I could make similiar critisms of the male deities but they tend to be bland rather than fall into a consistant pattern the way the above ladies do. I do think the walk back on erastil was a mistake. While a clarification that he, as a lg deity, is neither a homophobe or mysoginist would have been welcome. I do feel having a god of small (c) conservative rural communities was really intetesting and a lg nature god certainly fits most rural farming communities i know and made a nice contrast with the traditional curchannous style dnd wild god of nature.

Aside from that, cayden cailen is a drunk whose followers would be an absolute misery to live with, the male empyreal lord of prostitutes was a bold choice but his description reads like a justification of a pimp. Gorum should be ne. War is hell. Abadar feels a bit bland, the prophecies of kallistokrad are much more intetesting. Gozreh is ok, nethys is cool but majorly conflicts with the osirion pantheon, irori is boring and fits poorly thematically- should have been a empyreal lord. Torag is super generic, should be the n god of storms/forge/war to gorums ne .

The giant gods do not mesh well with the titans. Tbh i dont think racial gods work well generally.

The demigods are generally well done.

Sone positives to end on because despite the above i do like pf and golarion a lot and think the lore is generally well done.

The green faith is brilliant, ydersius is likewise much better than zehir. The axiomite godmind is great. Razmir is inspired- a level 19 wizard using a massive religous ponzi scheme to fund a bid for immortality when he can discover the same by leveling up- brilliant irony, stunning visuals and genuinely sinister cult. I like that azlanti gods died trying to stop earthfall, it adds a sense if lovr between gods and worshippers.

I like dahak, makes more sense as a dragon god in hell than tiamat did. Zyphus is sinister af. Groeteus is wonderful, much better than atropus. The protean speakers are appropriately weird. The elemental lords are nicely done and introduce a nice foil to geniekind. Ragathiel manages the redeemed son of hell thing witjout being too emo. Unlike others in the thread i like zon kuthon as a god of slaves and freedom through pain, reminds me of the Crippled God from the Malazan books.


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Rysky wrote:
Pharasma knows the rules of the Universe on how things works and why, and maybe even wrote some of them.

But . . . that doesn't make her a good person. Confuzzlement.

In fact, she's canonically a not good person, detect good detects nada. So what's it matter to the aspiring necromancer what her goals are, or what she thinks about the fundamental forces of the cosmos? She's the person who strips people of their memories/identity and sends innocent people to hell to get tortured!

So what if she has some sort of overarching goal? So what if she knows something that mortals don't, understands how the universe functions on a different level than humans can? I very much doubt that the average thirteenth century peasant understood what Genghis Khan wanted for his empire, or understood anything about the logistics of running said empire. Maybe the peasant thinks that there's nothing wrong with not having their little village raided, because they don't think it's important in the grand scheme of things, where the Khan understands that the village is strategically placed as a staging ground for a larger conflict. Perhaps a necromancer doesn't see anything wrong with raising some skeletal guardians to protect the innocent with, or a defense attorney doesn't see anything wrong with representing a necromancer in court, where Pharasma understands that tying a mortal soul to the material plane, I don't know, degrades it's soul power that the Outer Planes need to feed on or something. But so what if Pharasma has some sort of bigger picture view?

The rules of the universe that Pharasma may've written aren't moral rules, they're just metaphysical laws.

DeathlessOne wrote:
Whether or not you agree with it or not, something that has the power over life, death, and the eternal fate of your soul has the power and authority to dictate what is right and what is wrong, even if it doesn't fit your concept of morality. In Pathfinder, there is a higher power that dictates good, evil, chaos, and law, but not right or wrong.

I'm not trying to argue whether Pharasma is Good or Evil. She's Neutral. I'm talking about whether Pharasma is good or evil, which is a much more pertinent question. I'm saying that just because you have power over someone doesn't mean that you can dicate what is good or what is unethical, and there is no degree of personal power where that becomes the case.

DeathlessOne wrote:
She has a job to do and she is the arbitrator of how it is going to be done. She is the final authority on it (leave the DM/GM out of this) and you don't have the standing to argue with her. You can use whatever arguments you want against her, pleading that she doesn't have the right to do what she wants, and your arguments will fall on deaf ears. She has the power and she can do as she pleases.

Which does not give her the ability to decide what is good or evil.

You can whine and cry and plead with Genghis Khan, and he can ignore you, because he's powerful and you aren't. That doesn't mean that Genghis Khan can dictate morality. The ability to do what you want without consequences ≠ justification for your actions.


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To use an external example, there is a video game I'm a fan of that happens to have a deity as old as the universe (and at least partially its creator), whose dominion happens to be life, arguably the ending of said life, and seeing the future. For at least 95% of the story, the protagonists have no idea what their deities reasons are.

He was the final boss, because those reasons were entirely self-serving to the detriment of everybody else.

Weird coincidences, huh?


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
But . . . that doesn't make her a good person. Confuzzlement.

No. No, it doesn't. Who ever said she is a 'good' person. She is a deity.

Quote:
She's the person who strips people of their memories/identity and sends innocent people to hell to get tortured!

Technically, the soul does that to itself. Petitioner's lose their memories over time while not having a living body to house them. But that isn't the point. She has the power to do that. That is her role.

Quote:
... Perhaps a necromancer doesn't see anything wrong with raising some skeletal guardians to protect the innocent with, or a defense attorney doesn't see anything wrong with representing a necromancer in court, where Pharasma understands that tying a mortal soul to the material plane, I don't know, degrades it's soul power that the Outer Planes need to feed on or something. But so what if Pharasma has some sort of bigger picture view?

So what? Why does it matter? Because Pharasma wills it so! That is the entire point! You seem to be under the impression that your sense of right and wrong, subjective as it is, can hold its own against a force of nature, no, a force of the multiverse. All your harping about Genghis Khan and his relative position of power over a pheasant is not comparable to this situation. Genghis Khan can not alter the substance of reality on a whim and ENFORCE his will so that the very souls obey his command.

It matters because the powers you are dealing with do not obey your sense of right and wrong. It matters because those forces make the rules that the universes functions along. They have the power to make their own subjective morals the OBJECTIVE morality of the universe. You don't have to like it but, then again, the deities that shaped the universe were not taking suggestions when they laid the foundations for the world those souls inhabit.

Quote:
Which does not give her the ability to decide what is good or evil.

*Blink* Well, actually, it does. Not the 'good' or 'evil' as far as the alignment system goes, but in general, Pharasma is the sum total judge and jury of the issues. Whether or not YOU agree that she should hold that power, she does. In this incarnation of the Pathfinder universe, she stands unmovable in that position.

Now, just to clear the air, I apologize if this is all repetitive. Personally, I tend to disagree with the whole 'true neutral' ultimate authority figure in the grand scheme of things. From an outside perspective, I don't think any PERSON should hold that kind of power. But, and I heavily emphasize this interjection, if one assumes that such a powerful figure had such abilities to render such eternal verdicts, one really doesn't have much say in the matter, nor can one stand up to them to change it. To that end, I divorce my sense of right and wrong from what is described in the Pathfinder setting, and adopt thinking along the lines that fit within the ground work therein. Anything else causes problems when you inject outside morality into a system not designed for it. Keep OOC issues out of character and out of the game.


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I can relate to idea that the Osirian pantheon is lackluster. We're playing RotRL and one of my players worships Anubis, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how the pantheon fits in. They seem to spring up out of nowhere around the Age of Destiny. Where did these gods come from? Where were they during the height of Azlant? Did they have any worshippers prior to the founding of Osirion? Were they ancient but relatively minor tribal deities until the time of Azghaad, or did they simply not exist until the death of Ulunat? Their heyday was long after the fall of Thassilon, but it'd be nice to know whether they even existed at the time so as to resolve certain interactions the party is likely to have during the campaign.


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DeathlessOne wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that your sense of right and wrong, subjective as it is, can hold its own against a force of nature, no, a force of the multiverse.

Hold up a second. This is a thread for people to rag on the gods that they think are jerks, and explain why they think that. Lotsa folks think Pharasma is a jerk, ‘cause she says necromancing is inexcusable under any circumstances and goes damning people to hell for it (among other jerkish traits and behaviors).

Here’s the claim I’ve been responding to:

DeathlessOne wrote:
What kind of moral argument can you make when you have only the slightest idea, the merest concept, of the purpose of the entire cycle is for and the possible damage you can do by interrupting it even a little?

The claim above, about moral arguments, is part of a post detailing how Pharsama is always the right just ‘cuz she’s strong, knowledgeable and in a position of authority. This is something that is not true, and strikes me as a particularly silly view to espouse. That’s all.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like Pharasma.

I've never been a fan of Gorum myself.


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I find all claims that gods are Mary Sue or overpowered to be absurd.

Being powerful may allow one to dictate rules and enforce them, but that doesn't necessarily make them right/moral/ethical/good.

Silver Crusade

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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Lotsa folks think Pharasma is a jerk, ‘cause she says necromancing is inexcusable under any circumstances and goes damning people to hell for it (among other jerkish traits and behaviors).
You do Evil stuff you go to Hell, that's how that works.
Quote:
The claim above, about moral arguments, is part of a post detailing how Pharsama is always the right just ‘cuz she’s strong, knowledgeable and in a position of authority. This is something that is not true, and strikes me as a particularly silly view to espouse. That’s all.

Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f*$#s up the universe, don't do it."


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Hold up a second. This is a thread for people to rag on the gods that they think are jerks, and explain why they think that. Lotsa folks think Pharasma is a jerk, ‘cause she says necromancing is inexcusable under any circumstances and goes damning people to hell for it (among other jerkish traits and behaviors).

Yes, this is a thread to explain who is your least favorite god and why. That doesn't preclude someone from responding to your opinion when they perceive (in their opinion) a misunderstanding that shapes/warps your image of that deity. You are entitled to your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
The claim above, about moral arguments, is part of a post detailing how Pharsama is always the right just ‘cuz she’s strong, knowledgeable and in a position of authority. This is something that is not true, and strikes me as a particularly silly view to espouse. That’s all.

Its not just about her always being right because of her power, knowledge, and position of authority. This isn't about 'might makes right'. Being the deity of death and rebirth, the sole arbiter of the souls of the multiverse, gives her a perspective that no other being has, and that makes her 'right' when she says "Don't do it". A mortal does not have the capacity to understand the infinite ways that meddling with the energies of the soul meddles with the fundamental fabric of the multiverse. The Universe labeling certain types of spells as Evil only serves to back up her stance on the matter.

If characters think she is a jerk for not wanting them to dabble in energies that they want to dabble in, then they can think that. If they choose to ignore the warnings of the deity in charge of the gates of the afterlife, they can suffer the consequences of their actions. Ignoring the rules of reality does not make them go away. Pharasma has all of eternity to wait for their soul to come to her place of judgement. Every soul eventually ends up there.

Rysky wrote:
Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f#@+s up the universe, don't do it."

Yes, this is precisely the issue. She was present to SHAPE those particular rules of the universe. It would be a good wager to expect she knows what she is talking about.


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Right, but you see the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of souls also wrote the laws so its fine.

Your sentence is the removal of your memories, personality, class levels, and everything that made you who you are. You are hereby banished to the plane that matched the alignment you no longer represent because every aspect of your personality has been destroyed by the previous process.

NEXT


I think I might be the only one who holds no real dislike towards any of the Golarion deities... I dislike some aspects, mechanical (I.E the idiocy around several of the Diefic Obediences), or flavorful (Torag being a kind of generic creator god), but ultimately I can't really name any of the gods as a least favorite. I tend to just overwrite most of the bad spots or completely ignore them.


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DeathlessOne wrote:
It really does just come down to who has the most power in the situation. This is not the real world. This is not a democracy. This is Pathfinder and you really can't argue with a god unless they intend to humor you. Their will shapes reality, not yours.

While that might be true of a character in the Golarion setting (one could argue, it seems to be that just because someone CAN do something to you and you can't resist it doesn't mean that it is ok) but it is absolutely 100% not true of a real person on the message board discussing the morality of fictional characters in a game setting.

This is the real world. We can discuss whether a fictional character's actions would be moral or not and debate that.


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Well, that cinches it. Time to kill Pharasma.


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Bring it on.


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ShroudedInLight wrote:

Right, but you see the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of souls also wrote the laws so its fine.

Your sentence is the removal of your memories, personality, class levels, and everything that made you who you are. You are hereby banished to the plane that matched the alignment you no longer represent because every aspect of your personality has been destroyed by the previous process.

NEXT

But, this is how bunnies and kittens are born, do you not want bunnies and kittens.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dave Justus wrote:
This is the real world. We can discuss whether a fictional character's actions would be moral or not and debate that.

True enough, but when such perspectives ignore why a character behaves as they do in favor of moralistic judgment, it kinda.... defangs the exercise.

Pharasma, for the most germane and current example in this discussion, is often credited with far more... volition, I think, than the setting really gives her.


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Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
Bring it on.

As you wish


Dave Justus wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
It really does just come down to who has the most power in the situation. This is not the real world. This is not a democracy. This is Pathfinder and you really can't argue with a god unless they intend to humor you. Their will shapes reality, not yours.

While that might be true of a character in the Golarion setting (one could argue, it seems to be that just because someone CAN do something to you and you can't resist it doesn't mean that it is ok) but it is absolutely 100% not true of a real person on the message board discussing the morality of fictional characters in a game setting.

This is the real world. We can discuss whether a fictional character's actions would be moral or not and debate that.

I try not to bring real world morality into discussions on in game mechanics, or system design. For all intents and purposes, real world morality is subjective though we can agree on some common points if we are reasonable people. Subjectivity does not belong in a setting that has hard, objective morality and alignments systems. There is really no purpose.

However, as I stated before, I don't like the idea of a PERSON having that kind of power. Mortals have this nasty habit of misusing such powers. It would require a being with far greater grasp of the entire picture, one that far exceeds the ability of any mortal (aka, a deity) for me to be comfortable with that kind of situation. I might not like it but then I am not someone that would intentionally piss off such a being by doing something they have expressly forbidden.

Pharasma says "Don't meddle with the cycle of souls."
I respond "Yes, Ma'am."

Story is a little bit different if a deity tells me to DO something that goes against my own personal idea of right and wrong. As a character, I am only subservient to my patron deity, and have their protection in this life. I don't go out of my way to piss the others off unless I am following orders. Since I, personally, don't exist in a world where deities are commonly interfering in daily lives of mortals, I don't have to worry about it.


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Groetus, Harbinger of Last Days wrote:
Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
Bring it on.
As you wish

Looks suspiciously at the imposter.


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Skitters subtly through thread, wearing a bowler hat and fake mustache, knocks over three cathedrals and a Gap


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Groetus, God of the End Times wrote:
Groetus, Harbinger of Last Days wrote:
Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
Bring it on.
As you wish
Looks suspiciously at the imposter.

You might want more than one Mirror Image for the attack. I've got a good stack of scrolls if you need them.


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Groetus, God of the End Times wrote:
Groetus, Harbinger of Last Days wrote:
Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
Bring it on.
As you wish
Looks suspiciously at the imposter.

So it's come to this


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Groetus, Harbinger of Last Days wrote:
Groetus, God of the End Times wrote:
Groetus, Harbinger of Last Days wrote:
Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
Bring it on.
As you wish
Looks suspiciously at the imposter.
So it's come to this

Grinds craters together in anticipation.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Speaking of Pharasma and reasons to hate her, you know how Gnomes suffer from the Bleaching?

Her Fault!

An Eldest once thought Pharsma's court was hilarious and made a copy of it in the first world and then asked for volunteers to "die and be judged". Thinking this was hilarious, some gnomes volunteered. Pharasma, unable to take a joke, spooked her way into the First World and kidnapped that Eldest to force him to work for her court forever. She also banished the gnomes from the first world, forever severing their ties to that plane, and dooming them to eventual death on the material plane from the bleaching.


They get it all figured out in time for the gap, so no worries!


Probably my least favorite is the absence of a neutral god rogues could worship. All of the likely candidates focus on either chaos (cayden, calistria) or are basically for evil assassins.

I've had Calistria be called sexist at my tables, as well, which is a same because there are parts of that faith that I think could be interesting.


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Xenocrat wrote:


I hate all the CG gods who triumph free will, and Asmodeus for trying to stamp it out. Much ado about something that doesn't exist.

But of course they can't decide to act any differently, so it's not their fault.

How do you know there's no free will in Pathfinder? Yes, in reality the DM control's the actions of everyone except the PCs but I mean speaking in universe.


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Ooh! Are we doing a godly reunion?

Whoops forgot to switch on the voice.

Alright! Let's party!


Yqatuba wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


I hate all the CG gods who triumph free will, and Asmodeus for trying to stamp it out. Much ado about something that doesn't exist.

But of course they can't decide to act any differently, so it's not their fault.

How do you know there's no free will in Pathfinder? Yes, in reality the DM control's the actions of everyone except the PCs but I mean speaking in universe.

,’:\

Because the idea of free will is incoherent in a deterministic universe (read: in any conceivable universe)? That’s ah, that’s the joke. Nothing to do but laugh or cry. x)

Though obviously forcing people to act against their preferences is a Bad Thing, and the idea of letting people act on the conclusions they come to, commonly referred to as allowing people to exercise their free will, is a less bad thing (in most circumstances).


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If anyone wants to beat the system I could use another Feysworn.

Just uh, no guarantees I won't get bored of you.


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Rysky wrote:
Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f*+~s up the universe, don't do it."

Interestingly enough, this also puts her in the position to lie to pretty much everyone (mortal and god alike) about how the universe works to her own personal benefit.

Perhaps the entire boneyard system is set up the way it is not because that's not the path that souls naturally take, bit because that is the path that Pharasma has forced them to take.

Perhaps Aroden was beginning to suspect this greatest of deceptions, and had to be silenced...


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Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f*+~s up the universe, don't do it."

Interestingly enough, this also puts her in the position to lie to pretty much everyone (mortal and god alike) about how the universe works to her own personal benefit.

Perhaps the entire boneyard system is set up the way it is not because that's not the path that souls naturally take, bit because that is the path that Pharasma has forced them to take.

Perhaps Aroden was beginning to suspect this greatest of deceptions, and had to be silenced...

This is now canon.


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f*+~s up the universe, don't do it."

Interestingly enough, this also puts her in the position to lie to pretty much everyone (mortal and god alike) about how the universe works to her own personal benefit.

Perhaps the entire boneyard system is set up the way it is not because that's not the path that souls naturally take, bit because that is the path that Pharasma has forced them to take.

Perhaps Aroden was beginning to suspect this greatest of deceptions, and had to be silenced...

This is now canon.

Whoa . . . you people might be onto something . . . !


blahpers wrote:
Well, that cinches it. Time to kill Pharasma.

I've been saying this from day ONE! No one listens to me! She's rigged the system, she's behind Aroden's death!

She's a liar and a cheat! If she decides how the universe works, then why did I become a god when I told her to get bent after she handed me my ruling?


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With all due respect, it's hard to think of a less intimidating creature than the one you named yourself after. Not great for a reaper.


The Sideromancer wrote:
With all due respect, it's hard to think of a less intimidating creature than the one you named yourself after. Not great for a reaper.

Oh! We got those in the First World.

They are puce, have bat wings and, and pincers for eyes though...


Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Pharasma is "right" because she knows how the universe works. Her mindset is basically "Hey, this f*+~s up the universe, don't do it."

Interestingly enough, this also puts her in the position to lie to pretty much everyone (mortal and god alike) about how the universe works to her own personal benefit.

Perhaps the entire boneyard system is set up the way it is not because that's not the path that souls naturally take, bit because that is the path that Pharasma has forced them to take.

Perhaps Aroden was beginning to suspect this greatest of deceptions, and had to be silenced...

Perhaps. Though none of us is in any kind of position to do anything about it, and we have no solid evidence of it in the first place. I try not to imply falsehood or deceiption towards others unless I have solid justification for it, and wanting to do something the almost-all-powerful goddess tells you not to do does not meet that measure. I could delude myself into thinking it is, but reality would eventually catch up with me.


You know that Pharasma's anger at undead is simply the attitudes of Paizo's founders put into a character in the game, right? There are no deep reasons.


Derklord wrote:

"He is indifferent to whether his followers are knights in plate mail, goblins wielding dogslicers, or children armed with table knives-anyone willing to put up a fight, no matter how pathetic or pointless, is worth swinging at." Inner Sea Gods pg. 62

Neutral my ass!

Admittedly, even children with knives can be a marginal threat. Obviously, they can't win. No dispute there. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage.

First- they are at a good height to attack the legs (and maybe more sensitive areas). I don't want to make the skyrim reference, but I am sure we can all understand my point there. That could end the career of a warrior if he can't afford to get magic healing, and it is at least a disadvantage in other fights until he gets healed.
Secondly- The kid might be even more of a threat if he has a terrible knife- a rusty knife brings the problem of tetanus. Remove disease requires an addition 2 spell levels compared to just healing a wound. This is a pseudo medieval setting, afterall.

I think I can understand the technical point Gorum presents- arrogance and underestimating your enemies means you put yourself at risk (I am sure you can apply this lesson to actual battle where the command takes unnecessary casualties against weaker opponents) and you disrespect their desire to fight.

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