Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Ok, so the big question is how do you convince the party to run from the monster? Players rarely take a hint on such things. If I was the writer I'd give the party an NPC to go with them, establish his competence in an earlier fight, then have him get killed in the first round by the beast. He'd have a nice red tunic.
Also, can we get a sidebar for what happens if they DO defeat it in the initial fight? I mean, yes it hits hard, and might make people scared. But that's all it does. If you've got a solid tank with a boatload of HP, and enough other damage dealers, it's not that hard.
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I've been wondering the same thing. The trouble is, players are likely to assume all the talk about how dangerous the creature is is nothing more than color for the scenario--after all, most scenarios have NPCs incapable of handling threats that conveniently turn out to be CR-appropriate for the PCs. There are actually relatively few mechanical ways for PCs to gauge the HD/threat level of a monster, so if the players don't know (and aren't told by the GM) that they're *supposed* to run into a building, barricade it, and search around in it for a few hours, I'm not sure how things are going to pan out.
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Ok, so the big question is how do you convince the party to run from the monster? Players rarely take a hint on such things. If I was the writer I'd give the party an NPC to go with them, establish his competence in an earlier fight, then have him get killed in the first round by the beast. He'd have a nice red tunic.
A GM rubbing their hands together and saying the word "mythic" or "mythic-adjacent" just loud enough for players to hear might do the trick...TOZ's solution is also valid, but I'd maybe give the party a chance to withdraw after a round or two into the fight if they change their mind (and then start the chase thereafter).
Also, can we get a sidebar for what happens if they DO defeat it in the initial fight? I mean, yes it hits hard, and might make people scared. But that's all it does. If you've got a solid tank with a boatload of HP, and enough other damage dealers, it's not that hard.
I very much second this request. Off the top of my head I don't think DR/epic stops smite evil, so a couple of high damage-output paladins and decent support could potentially take it out.
Organized Play Developer
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I've come here for some advice on what happens if the PCs engage the reaver at the start, choose not to run and actually kill the thing.
The group of six I'm running for has one, possibly two APG summoners as well as a heavily optimized brawler, amongst others.
I'll see what we can do as far as an update goes but consider this official guidance in the meantime:
In the event that the PCs kill the red reaver upon first encountering it, the reaver is eventually revived by its connection to the Bastion of Light but the process takes some time. Treat the PCs as though they had automatically achieved the maximum number of successes possible during the chase scene; in this case it was the orcs who barricaded the Bastion but the PCs can squeeze in since the defenses are designed to keep out a larger creature. Once in the Bastion the first time the PCs would encounter the red reaver ambush, they do not. After you give the PCs their first pass on the reaver ambush, or when they resolve one of the non-spore pod encounters inside the Bastion (whichever comes first), give them some clues that the reaver is back, such as scratching at the walls or pounding on the door. Resolve the rest of the adventure normally.
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I notice the first obstacle talks about orcs trying to slow down the party. But the reaver kills the last orc when the party arrives. Was the first entry left over from previous versions where some of the orc party survives?
I thought myhic ranks added to the CR ... So would this not be a 15+17+2 for a total for 34 (instead of the 32 you proposed)
I don't know, I'd have to check the mythic rules for any clauses about adding to Knowledge check DCs.
Edit: Here we are. "To determine a mythic monster's final CR, add half its mythic rank to its original CR. For example, a 2nd rank mythic owlbear's final CR is 5 (2 × 1/2 + 4)." So just a +1 to the DC.
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Quick question (in case John, Linda, or Michael check back here) - is the trial and error method of solving the puzzle on page 16 supposed to be 3 hours? Since having 1, 2, or 3 "known" reduces the time to 30 minutes (then 5 minutes, then 1 minute), 3 hours seems rather excessive (and I wonder if it might be a typo). This is also taking into account that the only way the PCs have 3 hours is if they achieve the maximum possible result during the chase and also go to this room first and do nothing else.
Thanks in advance!
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One more quick question - if the PCs defeat the reaver but fail to perform the ritual in Area A6 and choose to leave the helmet behind rather than desecrate the font to retrieve it (thinking that with the orcs and reaver gone, they can bring Gorm to the site instead of bringing the mountain to Mohammed, as it were), how would that affect their primary success condition? The boon suggests that it is tied more to the defeat of the reaver than the reclamation of the helm, but I could see it being interpreted many different ways.
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Okay one last one (I hope) - I just noticed that none of the reaver's feats are mythic, and wanted to ask if that was intentional (since even mythic skeletons have one mythic feat)?
Thanks in advance!
Edit: I found two more minor things regarding Uirch (which might matter since he is part of the 4 player adjustment). His class level (and stat block) suggest that he should only be able to use Fervor for 3d6, but the text on page 14 says 4d6. Also, he has the feat Believer's Boon, but that boon/domain is not listed.
Edit, the last: I'm guessing the answer is no, but are there any 4-player adjustments for the optional encounters?
Thanks again!
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Organized Play Developer
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Okay one last one (I hope) - I just noticed that none of the reaver's feats are mythic, and wanted to ask if that was intentional (since even mythic skeletons have one mythic feat)?
Thanks in advance!
I'm visiting family in Alaska at the moment so I can't answer all your questions, but this one was one I could handle off the top of my head. The Invincible simple mythic template the reaver of Roslar's Coffer uses does not give it the mythic subtype or any of the additional benefits thereof but only give it the benefits listed in the template, so it would not have any mythic feats.
Venture-Agent, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh
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I wanted to point out that both sets of stats list the Red Reaver as having 10 ft space and 10 ft reach in spire of having the Giant Template (the rest of its stats seem to check out).
Also, I'm not sure why the orcs are taking such a steep penalty for using their nets in combat. They are all listen as having weapon focus regardless of tier.
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Venture-Agent, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh
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Edit: I found two more minor things regarding Uirch (which might matter since he is part of the 4 player adjustment). His class level (and stat block) suggest that he should only be able to use Fervor for 3d6, but the text on page 14 says 4d6. Also, he has the feat Believer's Boon, but that boon/domain is not listed.
Edit, the last: I'm guessing the answer is no, but are there any 4-player adjustments for the optional encounters?
Thanks again!
1. 3d6 for a warpriest at level 10. He doesn't have any items that increase that nor any empowered channeling, so it must be a typo.
2. Fire or Glory Domain? It would be the same as his blessings. The way the character is built, I would say he has seen some time as a PC. His abilities aren't typical for an NPC. This is purely speculation.
3. I would assume this is a chance to be creative. Switch up the group size numbers to fit the play style. I'm going to assume there is at least one room where the orcs have designated a sleep area, so PCs will come in on them either sleeping or just waking up hearing the door creak. Starting from prone with weapons on the floor could suffice for a 4 player adjustment. Again, this is my opinion.
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I wanted to point out that both sets of stats list the Red Reaver as having 10 ft space and 10 ft reach in spire of having the Giant Template (the rest of its stats seem to check out).
I agree Cornelus... The base Red Reaver is a 10' creature with a 10' reach (as per page 476 of the Curse of the Crimson Throne Adventure Path).
I think this error is a result of Hero Lab ... because when I recreated this monster in hero lab, it results in a "HUGE size" creature that has a 10' space and a 10' reach.
I am of the opinion this should be a 15' size (to match huge) and also have a 15' reach.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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I notice the first obstacle talks about orcs trying to slow down the party. But the reaver kills the last orc when the party arrives. Was the first entry left over from previous versions where some of the orc party survives?
Running this tonight and I'm wondering about this too. I'm assuming the set of orcs that just got wiped out by the creature are Urich's band.
I'll have the bad orcs appear on the scene the same time the PCs do. Both parties are caught unawares to see each other. Both groups see the beast roar and get ready to charge like a bull readying to charge a matador. I'll then have the creature give chase to both parties.
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Venture-Agent, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh
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I notice the first obstacle talks about orcs trying to slow down the party. But the reaver kills the last orc when the party arrives. Was the first entry left over from previous versions where some of the orc party survives?
Running this tonight and I'm wondering about this too. I'm assuming the set of orcs that just got wiped out by the creature are Urich's band.
I'll have the bad orcs appear on the scene the same time the PCs do. Both parties are caught unawares to see each other. Both groups see the beast roar and get ready to charge like a bull readying to charge a matador. I'll then have the creature give chase to both parties.
I was going to have the orcs appear on the scene and have the party role initiative (acting like this is going to be the combat.) Then when the orcs miraculously win initiative, they run right past the party at breakneck speed. Only the last orc is lagging behind. "The orcs pass you with a look of utter terror on their faces paying you absolutely no mind. There's something wrong... You hear a booming sound echoing through off the abandoned buildings... boom... boom... suddenly-" slam Red Reaver on the table. "IT'S THE RED REAVER!" pause for reaction from players. "The last orc scrambles to get away, but the red menace's claws are too fast. In one swift motion the orc is plucked off his feet and rent in twei like a party cracker on Christmas. Hurling the lower half into the lake, the massive ape sinks jaws into the still screaming orc. Blood dripping from its maw, it has now set its sights on you..." look at top of initiative order and look sternly at the next player in order. "You're up? Think about your next move very carefully. You can either stay and die OR you may only have to run faster than those orcs to survive this encounter. Your choice."
If someone insists "I'm gonna fight it!"
"Okay..roll me a knowledge check." Do not wait for answer after he rolls d20. "Oh, it's it a natural 20? Yeah, you fail. Oh, yeah, those pesky MYTHIC RANKS are always hard to-I mean, what was your attack roll (don't bother you missed) Now it's his turn again."
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Running this next week, I saw some things I'd like clarification of:
- Page 11 sidebar "losing a limb" says it gives 50% spell failure chance for spells with a material component. The chronicle sheet says it's 20%. Is that intended? As in, 50% only in this scenario, then less of a penalty thereafter? Or just an error?
- The chronicle sheet lists war spirit pouches as buyable and craftable. First off, what's the related craft skill? I found in the Advanced Race Guide it's DC 20, but I have no idea which one it is. Also, the description says "By crushing the pouch as a standard action, an orc (or a creature from a suitably warlike culture)." Does the chronicle also waive that line? Or else, how do I determine which races are warlike enough?
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"a creature from a suitably warlike culture" Does the chronicle also waive that line? Or else, how do I determine which races are warlike enough?
We had a discussion on that as well. So, definitely unclear.
I think that "Pathfinder Society" is a sufficiently warlike culture to count :-). Slightly less facetiously, yes I think the chronicle sheet overrides the usual wording and everybody can use it. Its not as if its overpowered (especially at level 7+). Its quite good value for money, mind, just not overpowered
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Organized Play Developer
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Running this next week, I saw some things I'd like clarification of:
- Page 11 sidebar "losing a limb" says it gives 50% spell failure chance for spells with a material component. The chronicle sheet says it's 20%. Is that intended? As in, 50% only in this scenario, then less of a penalty thereafter? Or just an error?
The sidebar is for what happens when you lose a limb during the scenario. The Chronicle sheet assumes that the limb loss is now a "permanent" malady and thus you've had some limited time to learn to get accomodated to it and it is thus not quite as severe as when you're crawling around the Bastion with your arm freshly mangled and bleeding all over your spell components.
[...] the description says "By crushing the pouch as a standard action, an orc (or a creature from a suitably warlike culture)." Does the chronicle also waive that line? Or else, how do I determine which races are warlike enough?
The Chronicle automatically qualifies you to use the war pouch.
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I just noticed the storyline for this one is exactly from the capsule description of the town in the Inner Sea World Guide. I wonder if there's an intention to try to resolve some of those long-standing adventure hooks so that further evolution can take place in PF2?
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Organized Play Developer
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I just noticed the storyline for this one is exactly from the capsule description of the town in the Inner Sea World Guide. I wonder if there's an intention to try to resolve some of those long-standing adventure hooks so that further evolution can take place in PF2?
>_>
<_<Maybe...
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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After-action report: Party consisted of a level 11 bow-wielding Ranger (player's first Pathfinder character, so some sub-optimal choices, but overall very solid), level 10 Bard/1 Oracle, insane face and knowledge skills (also Banner of Ancient Kings and that Plunder & Peril boon, so insane amounts of buffing), level 10 Swashbuckler, level 10 Sorcerer/1 Paladin (tank build).
Party was very impressed by the Reaver. I described how roughly 40 Orcs died within half a minute of confronting the Reaver. They liked the chase. This system is really good for chase scenes. They absolutely aced every check, due to a combination of insane rolls and very high modifiers on most skills.
They immediately went for the helmet to the left of the building. did the ritual, everything is fine. They decide to go clockwise from here. I planted some of those spores in the next room. Bard wants to harvest/disable them, has a decent chance, but fails completely. Here I must admit I screwed up slightly. I conflated the two traps and thought this also summoned the Reaver. So the PCs retreat back as they hear the Reaver bounding towards them. They specifically call out they want to do so quietly, so Stealth versus Perception. Bard fails, Reaver attacks through wall, mangles Bard's arm (thought that since this room doesn't have a roof, he could make the attack here as well). Players are quite shocked at what it can do, retreat further and tackle the Barbarians. Barbarians are pathetically weak and disposed of in two rounds. I decide to not use these anymore, as they're literally no challenge.
They do the puzzle. They identify the statues with ease and guess four of the five correctly, fifth is a problem. After some trial and error (I counted each attempt as 5 minutes, for discussion and waiting to see what happens. After a few tries, they complete it. Exactly one hour has passed by now, in-game. Next room also has a fungus patch, they avoid it like the plague because apparently it summons the Reaver, and back out. Eventually they find Uirch, heal him, he starts following them. They did all the rituals, so it's Reaver time. He bursts through the wall, they retreat into the main hall. Ranger shoots him, thing is already through half his HP. Others do some damage as well. Reaver roars, as per tactics, no one is impressed. Ranger is again, Reaver dies, people are slightly disappointed.
Thoughts:
We all thought it was silly that the near-mythic monster with insane Strength couldn't burst through a hastily-cobbled-together barricade.
I liked the puzzle with the items, but I was on the GM's end of things. Maybe it's different when I would've played it, we'll never know. I printed out a physical representation of everything, so people could shuffle them around, instead of doing it in their head or writing it down. One player wasn't amused by the puzzle, but he said he hated Paizo puzzles anyway. Others seemed more amused by it. I really recommend you do the same.
Combats were lacklustre. To be fair, the archer Ranger did heaps of damage, but the Orcs themselves weren't much of a challenge. The Orcs neither has survivability through AC or HP, nor were they threatening enough with their damage output (hell, they didn't even manage to damage the PCs). The Reaver could've been a problem if it had survived, but opening with a roar really kills its potential.
The bonuses from the relics were a cool touch, but maybe the author overdid it. Bane at this level really kills stuff. That's my biggest complaint. Other than that, the AC and skill bonuses were a nice touch, but skill bonuses in an investigation scenario are dangerous.
The mangling part was really awesome. I'm glad I made that mix-up I mentioned earlier, as that's the only time the beast got close to the PCs, and it really scared them.
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Questions: what's the purpose of the fountain in the back? My players assumed that's where the font was (as per the description on page 6: "You'll see that the helmet is likely in the font at the back of the Bastion").
Is there a reason why two of the three rituals give an AC bonus? I like that there's a fallback option if you don't have enough time to do both, but if you do, you get nothing from it (though one is versus the Reaver specifically, is that supposed to stack?). Was that intended?
In the puzzle, it says, "If the PCs identify the proper figure to place in one, two, or three hollows...", but there is no way to identify which goes where. The way I read it, you only know their descriptions, not their supposed places. How do you do this? This was relevant for me, because my players were sure about four of the five, but not about their respective places, so they still couldn't brute-force their way to a solution.
A silly one, but how do you pronounce "Uirch?" I did it like "Oork," with a long oo like "school," with a hard K at the end. Or is it supposed to be a diphthong somehow? As in "guide"?
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I played at Kwinten's table last night, and agree the Reaver had us pretty scared until we faced it.
The initial encounter could be enhanced by describing a halo in the form of the helmet the party is looking for, located around the Reaver's head from the long exposure to the helmet.
On now reading the monster entry and tactics: Yikes!
But having the Reaver roar in the first round, throw a DC19 save against a Fear effect is pointless at this level since you're reasonably likely to find the ritual for a +3 on all saves, so that feels like a wasted action. On the other hand, should he get to attack, it's probably going to hurt.
The Roar should only be used to initiate the chase scene (no save): It's an iconic ability for a King Kong-like monster, but mechanically it's far too weak for a CR14 creature.
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Sure it hits hard if you choose to stand and trade full attacks with it but its maneuverability is awful as are its saves, even with the second save thing.
I beg to differ slightly about the damage: The Greater Vital Strike and Power Attack make it an attack for 12d6+21 (33 to 93 dmg, avg. 53 dmg) with a 19-20 threat range.
But in general I agree: The monster gets way too weak with all the rituals.|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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In particular the injured war priest is quite literally sitting next to something which can heal him of his inuuries and has the spell he needs to do so himself prepared and with the component.
My take on that was the relic needed two hands to use, and one of his was too mangled to do so. Similarly, he might have already tried using healing spells, but botched due to the mangled, and decided to hold off on trying for a bit.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I like that monsters have stats that can be derived completely from their CR, but sometimes I wish that for epic monsters like this can be just made up on the fly. As said before, this thing has some glaring weaknesses. As an author, being able to say, "yeah, screw it, this thing has a Will of +15, even if it shouldn't," is so much better than having to leave such glaring weaknesses in there. A +8 on Will saves is just pathetic at this level.
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Organized Play Developer
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I like that monsters have stats that can be derived completely from their CR, but sometimes I wish that for epic monsters like this can be just made up on the fly. As said before, this thing has some glaring weaknesses. As an author, being able to say, "yeah, screw it, this thing has a Will of +15, even if it shouldn't," is so much better than having to leave such glaring weaknesses in there. A +8 on Will saves is just pathetic at this level.
Fortunately that's something that will be addressed by the new edition, since monster creation will no longer be tied to strict metrics of type and HD but will instead go off metrics that look directly at what's appropriate for challenges of a given level.
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How many hit points does Uirch start with? His maximum hit points are listed, but not current.
I also find it weird that he has so many healing spells/abilities available, but waits for the PCs to arrive to heal him at least 35 hit points and then uses his healing spells to heal them! It's frankly a bit goofy, and I don't know if my players will laugh or think it's an intentional clue and that Uirch is part of some nefarious trap.
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Keep in mind, he's been mangled twice by the Reaver (An arm and a leg), and the arm injury gives him a 50% chance to lose any spell he tries to cast.
I reasoned that he wasn't using spells yet due to the risk, so he was waiting to see if help came, and would have rolled the dice so to speak if it became the best option.
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I am preping this scenario for this weekend and was hopeful to clarify a couple of the outstanding items.
-Uirch's damage
Having taken 2 "traps" with an average damage of 47 he could be unconscious. I was going to put him at zero. He would have been knocked out but healed himself back to zero and is drifting in and out of consciousness. The shock and damage have left him in such a state that he has yet to recover enough to treat his own wounds further. In this case he has used his orc ferocity for the day.
-The Red Reavers Size
It looks like everything in the stat block points to a huge creature. You look at the AC, damage dice, saves etc these all show a rebuild application of the giant template. As such the red reaver should be space 15, reach 15. Its like he was left as a large to help sell Crown of Fangs mini #29......
-Tactics call for Greater vital strike.
A normal red reaver has the following Feats: Ability Focus (roar), Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claws)
Its clear that this one was custom built. I think they misspelled greater vital strike,,,and we should make a spelling correction to improved bull rush(who would even use bull rush?).
If you look at the "trap" damage as further back up its the bite damage with greater vital strike.(that its not the greater vital strike claw damage seems a bit silly since it reads that he grabs a pc not bites them).
If we don't correct the feat then it invalidates his tactics and the stupid idea to waste his first round roaring is also off the table.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Ran this again yesterday. Four players in low tier: Hoaxer Bard, Summoner with armour Eidolon, Summoner with sundering Eidolon, Cartomancer Witch/Harrower. In general, lots of debuffs, with the sundering Eidolon doing most of the damage.
They crushed the chase scene, even though they weren't really built for physical skills. The -4 really helps a lot, though they regularly got 30+ on their rolls. I like the addition of the more obscure skills at a lower DC, that rewards players with unusual skill allocations and such. Also makes it more exciting, these skills you might actually fail.
The Orcs were no threat at all. I was a bit more liberal with the triggering of the Reaver trap, because after several rereads I still conflated which trap did what, and to properly scare the players. After one Eidolon mangling, they wisely stayed away of squeaky floors and the mushrooms.
The puzzle was solved on their first try. They liked it. Wish I could say more, but I already said my piece up above. Again, I recommend making a physical handout so players have something to shuffle around.
The final fight was a cakewalk. Four-player adjustment is painful for the Reaver, especially if the players get all the ritual bonuses. Reaver actually managed to frighten one Eidolon, but a Remove Fear solved that. Then an Enervation for 4 made it nearly harmless. The +25 to hit shrunk down to a +16 (-4 four-player adjustment, -4 for Enervation, and a Slow for -1), and its damage output was equally laughable. He did absolutely no damage anymore. Two rounds later, he's missing 20 HP and absolutely miserable (its Will save was +0 at this point, as was his Reflex). It's Uirch's turn. I look to see if I can kill-steal it. I can't. I see I have Blindness/Deafness on my list. Save DC 16, Reaver's Fort is +14. I literally can only fail on a 1. I roll a natural 1 (I'm famous for my terrible rolls as a GM). Reaver is blind. It's now its turn. It has to provoke because the Hoaxer Bard did something to it. Hoaxer Bard rolls and attack roll (STR 5, by the way). Rolls, actually manages to hit, Reaver is at 1 HP because he rolled really well on his damage (and the Bane effect helped). Hoaxer remembers his Misery ability, which adds 2 to his damage. Reaver goes down to -1 HP. A STR 5 character managed to literally punch the Red Reaver to death (he had a spiked gauntlet).
I only noticed that fight that the frighten was within 30 feet. That makes no sense with its tactics; ideally it wants to frighten at range, then pick off the stragglers. But if it roars before people are close enough, the frighten will do absolutely nothing. Anyway, that's my nitpick.
Anyway, great fun.