Lord of the Rings, PF2-style


General Discussion


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Let's rewrite a couple battle scenes from Lord of the Rings with PF2 combat (before the 1.3 update):

Weathertop:
The ringwraiths climb the steps to confront Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin. One steps forward and stabs Frodo who gets Dying 1. Sam bravely faces the ringwraiths. One of them stabs Sam and he goes down to Dying 1. Aragorn rushes in but is surrounded by ringwraiths who get about 18 actions and knock him down to Dying 1. Sam and Aragorn use Hero Points to get back up to 1 HP. Frodo stabilizes and remains unconscious.
On Aragorn's next turn he stands up and tries to burn a ringwraith with his torch. They all attack him and knock him to dying 2. He burns a second Hero Point and gets back up, swings, then is knocked down to Dying 3. Sam uses a magical healing herb to bring Aragorn back to 1 HP. Aragorn get up and, finally, drives off the ringwraiths.

How heroic was Aragorn? Knocked unconscious three times and basically just a punching bag for the ringwraiths. Spent as much time unconscious on the ground as he did trying to fight heroically.

How about the fight in Moria:
The orcs break into the tomb of Balin. Legolas shoots an orc in the face. It dies. An Orc hits Boromir in the face but he doesn't die, he merely falls unconscious at Dying 1. Aragorn hits an orc in the face with his sword. The orc dies. Another orc hits Aragorn in the face with its sword but he doesn't die, he just falls unconcious at Dying 1. Gimli kills an orc. Legolas rushes over to Aragorn and heals him. Boromir uses a hero point.
Next round Aragorn stands up, kills an orc, then is knocked unconscious again at Dying 2. Boromir decides not to waste an action and attacks from the ground, killing two orcs, but then is knocked out at Dying 2. Gimli kills an orc then he is also knocked unconscious at Dying 2. More orcs come in.
Next round, Gimil and Aragorn use hero points and Legolas heals Boromir. All the heroes stand up and kill an orc but then they are knocked unconscious again. This time, Legolas and Sam and Frodo all use healing herbs to bring their heroic friends back to 1 HP.
Next round, they all stand up and are knocked unconscious again. And again, and again, and again...

No author would write that. No director would film that. It's silly. It's terrible story telling. It's not heroic at all to spend half of the fight lying on your back unconscious.

But that's what I've been seeing at my table and I definitely DO NOT want a TPK. I have been avoiding fudging rolls because this is a TEST, not an actual game. Our agreement is that if there is a TPK, we'll retcon it and move on to the next room of the scenario because this is a TEST.

So I'm letting the dice fall where they will. No fudging. I'm using tactics described in the books and trying to win with the monsters I'm given. I want to find out if the combat works.

But combats at my TESTING table looks like those scenes I described above. Heroes being knocked unconscious over and over and over. It seems other GMs have had similar experiences.

Now with 1.3 factored in, they die the second time they go down if they blow the recovery roll, so there could be more deaths in upcoming sessions. We'll see.

I would much prefer a system that keeps the heroes ON THEIR FEET. HEROICALLY. You know, like the heroes they are supposed to be.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I agree that the old dying rules weren't great, although I will mention that I feel Lord of the Rings is a terrible example to use for what Pathfinder "should" be. Nothing in Pathfinder even vaguely resembles Lord of the Rings past maybe third level.

A system that makes it harder for heroes to go down in the first place isn't really related to the dying rules, though, is it?


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Your example rings true to my experience.

What I dislike most is the cheapness of Hero Points.

Just for showing up for the game, everyone receives a "Get Out of Dying Free" Card . . . ?

Hero Points are a precious resource in my PF1 game.

But their new iteration cheapens both Hero Points and the Dying condition.

Whatever the dying rules end up being, they shouldn't depend upon the Hero-Point-bounce-back for balance.

The use of a Hero Point should be something rare, epic, ballad-worthy. It should be a moment people remember.


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Possible solution:

Let's NOT go unconscious to Dying 1.

Let's JUST get a Wounded condition that might apply modifiers or limit actions or something else that makes the heroes feel limited by their wounds...

...BUT THEY STAY ON THEIR FEET AND KEEP BEING HEROIC!

They shrug it off John McClane style. They may be limping around, bleeding, gasping and wheezing, slower and squishier than they were at the start of the day, but they're still going and still killing bad guys.

If enough wounds pile up, sure, let em finally drop. Even McClane dropped at the end of Die Hard. He'd earned it.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I do agree that Hero Points feel like a cheap "get out of dying free" card, and I don't like them. I especially don't like how the "dodge death" ability is SO good that no sane PC would ever use the 2-point or 3-point abilities. "I can reroll one attack, or I can save my life three times? Huh, tough choice..."


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MaxAstro wrote:
I will mention that I feel Lord of the Rings is a terrible example to use for what Pathfinder "should" be. Nothing in Pathfinder even vaguely resembles Lord of the Rings past maybe third level.

True, but if we rewrite something that feels high level, like maybe an Avengers movie, how many times did you see Iron Man or Thor being literally unconscious, get back up, get knocked unconscious again, get back up, KO'd again, all in a single fight?

If, if that happens, it's more of a montage to make us laugh rather than a serious action scene.

I don't think even Rocky Balboa gets knocked DOWN this often, and he certainly gets knocked unconscious way less often (48 3-minute rounds in the first four Rocky movies, 144 minutes, 1,440 melee rounds, only knocked out once).


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MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that Hero Points feel like a cheap "get out of dying free" card, and I don't like them. I especially don't like how the "dodge death" ability is SO good that no sane PC would ever use the 2-point or 3-point abilities. "I can reroll one attack, or I can save my life three times? Huh, tough choice..."

Valid point. Should be reversed. Give us 3 hero points at the start of each session, award 2-4 points for heroic stuff, max of 10 hero points.

Pay 1 for a re-roll or 3 for Heroic Recovery.

Also, do the heroic recovery to REMAIN STANDING AT 1 HP without falling down or being knocked out or getting any dying condition.


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DM_Blake wrote:

True, but if we rewrite something that feels high level, like maybe an Avengers movie, how many times did you see Iron Man or Thor being literally unconscious, get back up, get knocked unconscious again, get back up, KO'd again, all in a single fight?

It is, however, a very common trope in "shounen battle"-style manga, such as for example "One Piece". You can count on a hero being knocked out at least three or four times before finally defeating the bad guy. It is however, not healing magic that gets them up again repeatedly, but pure duty to and friendship with their comrades. :)


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I do understand your point. I can't say I've had the same experience though. I've only dropped one of players Animal Companions but so far none of my players have dropped to 0. They have had Healers in every party so far so that may have been a factor.


I'm not sure how it's possible to NOT knock out lowbie characters.

In Doomsday Dawn, every monster is capable of one-shot KOs on a crit and all of them can crit 10-20 percent of the time (and the big boss types more than that). In the level 4 adventure, I went from full health to 2 HP from a single hit of one enemy. It got three attacks that round. Sure, it was a crit, but I think the GM only rolled an 18 on the die, which means it could do that kind of damage, 4 levels worth of HP in a single hit, about once every six attacks or about once every two rounds. And its non-critical hits could take down any member of our group in 3 hits. That's a single round of good attacks. It was probably a boss, sure, but there was more than one in that adventure and it wasn't even fighting us alone.

Either the GM is very unlucky, or fudging dice, or fudging in other ways like having the monster attack a different PC with every attack, or the PCs are getting knocked out. I am not sure any other scenario is possible given the encounters I've seen at level 1 (which I ran) and level 4 (which I played while a friend ran it).


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The problem is that in PF2 (and in PF1 for that matter*) going below 0 hp knocks you unconscious. This is not realistic and not fun. What actually happens IRL is that you stagger around holding your bleeding guts or whatever while you call 999 (or 911 or 112 according to taste) and try not to die. Or in a heroic game, you might be Dying 1 and Slowed 1 and so on but can still limp to the back of the fight and glug a potion or take a desperate swing at the BBEG. BUT CONSCIOUS!

And this should of course also apply to the BBEG who can leap out of a window, to vanish into the night...until next week!

* though even PF1 has Staggered on 0hp, which is often houseruled to 0 to -ConBonus. Which enables the above.


Thus far, the three times someone has gone below 0 in my games:
- one was due to Drakus, who crit and rolled well, with his self-buff on. Even then, that was only 1 above their HP.
- two were due to burning hands, rock trap, and burning hands

Thus far in part 2, no one has gone unconscious.


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Mudfoot wrote:
What actually happens IRL is that you stagger around holding your bleeding guts or whatever while you call 999 (or 911 or 112 according to taste) and try not to die. Or in a heroic game, you might be Dying 1 and Slowed 1 and so on but can still limp to the back of the fight and glug a potion or take a desperate swing at the BBEG. BUT CONSCIOUS!

This is a good point. In general, I've liked how the new dying rules make dying impactful despite yo-yo healing...but I agree that it would be good to see staggered reincorporated (and in a bigger way). I like the idea of conscious but slowed until a certain stage of dying.

On a related note: I'm disappointed by the changes to Diehard...but at least Orc Ferocity retains some of it's allure. Once per day is bleh though.


While the current dying rules are an improvement over the previous ones, I am open to just about any change that makes them less friggin' complicated.

Given how easily this game bashes players to 0 hp, I am tired of it coming to a screeching halt while we figure out DC's and status conditions.


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MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that Hero Points feel like a cheap "get out of dying free" card, and I don't like them. I especially don't like how the "dodge death" ability is SO good that no sane PC would ever use the 2-point or 3-point abilities. "I can reroll one attack, or I can save my life three times? Huh, tough choice..."

Hear, hear.

Remember in PF1 how you could do really fun and cool things by spending one point, but it cost two points to rescue yourself from death?

So now we've reversed that, cut down on the cool things that you actually can do, and in compensation we give them out for things like "bringing food for the group" and "taking notes".


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DM_Blake wrote:

I'm not sure how it's possible to NOT knock out lowbie characters.

In Doomsday Dawn, every monster is capable of one-shot KOs on a crit and all of them can crit 10-20 percent of the time (and the big boss types more than that). In the level 4 adventure, I went from full health to 2 HP from a single hit of one enemy. It got three attacks that round. Sure, it was a crit, but I think the GM only rolled an 18 on the die, which means it could do that kind of damage, 4 levels worth of HP in a single hit, about once every six attacks or about once every two rounds. And its non-critical hits could take down any member of our group in 3 hits. That's a single round of good attacks. It was probably a boss, sure, but there was more than one in that adventure and it wasn't even fighting us alone.

Either the GM is very unlucky, or fudging dice, or fudging in other ways like having the monster attack a different PC with every attack, or the PCs are getting knocked out. I am not sure any other scenario is possible given the encounters I've seen at level 1 (which I ran) and level 4 (which I played while a friend ran it).

Not all monsters can one-shot players with crits actually. I had a Halfling Rogue with 12 Con get critted max damage by a Goblin and she just remained standing. And that's a fairly flimsy character. Not to mention that the same situation in PF1 (getting critted for max damage) could instakill players with some of the monsters you might face at level 1 or really anything with a 2-handed weapon, to say. Or hint of how easily they go unconscious. And past Part 1 getting KOd in one hit really isn't a thing from what I've seen. Also your assessment of how often monsters will land hits and crits COMPLETELY ignores Multiple Attack Penalty, which is a bugger here.

And that last paragraph of the quoted post is just riddled with logical fallacy. You're literally saying that for PCs to not drop the GM has to be playing dishonestly or just have bad luck. Sorry but that's bull, just essentially a strawman statement to invalidate anyone with different experiences than yours because "they must be fudging or unlucky if they agree with me".

Sorry, but I've run two and a half parts of DD with no PC KOs, despite having my monsters play smart (or at least as smart as is appropriate for the monster but most of the part 1 and 2 foes were smart enough for at least basic intelligent tactics), fudging absolutely zero numbers, and actually having pretty good luck with the dice for the most part. Like to the point my players have more than once jokingly expressed a wish that I'd switch to a different dice because they just got hit multiple times or the monster or it got a Nat 20 on a second or third attack. (And before you even suggest it it's not my physical dice either. I use multiple sets of dice from a comic shop that deals significantly in gaming stuff, they've always shown plenty of variance and I don't consistently use the same dice either, the thing about wishing I'd switch is just my players messing around anytime the monsters have a run of good luck.)


John Mechalas wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that Hero Points feel like a cheap "get out of dying free" card, and I don't like them. I especially don't like how the "dodge death" ability is SO good that no sane PC would ever use the 2-point or 3-point abilities. "I can reroll one attack, or I can save my life three times? Huh, tough choice..."

Hear, hear.

Remember in PF1 how you could do really fun and cool things by spending one point, but it cost two points to rescue yourself from death?

So now we've reversed that, cut down on the cool things that you actually can do, and in compensation we give them out for things like "bringing food for the group" and "taking notes".

I can definitely see the argument here though to be fair my players have used the 2 and 3 point options multiple times. Between parts 1 and 2 I've seen the reroll used 3 or 4 times at least, and in part 1 the extra action was part of the casting of the Tempest Surge that killed Drakkus. I flavored it for the player as a wisp of energy from a special thing they found in a mother room (trying to avoid spoilers XP) that empowered him to shoot off one more blast and it was epic.

From an optimal standpoint it may make more sense to save them for revivals but at the same time I think it only makes sense to use hero points as befits the story rather than optimally. And while the reroll and extra action may not seem too epic at face value, they're actually pretty powerful in PF2 and can be given great flavor.

Not to mention that two of the uses for hero points in PF1 were to reroll a d20 or to take a standard action off-turn (which actually moved your init like a readied action), so you can't necessarily call these weak options even compared to PF1.


Edge93 wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
I'm not sure how it's possible to NOT knock out lowbie characters.
Not all monsters can one-shot players with crits actually.

Not all PCs are at full health every time they get hit.

Edge93 wrote:
I had a Halfling Rogue with 12 Con get critted max damage by a Goblin and she just remained standing. And that's a fairly flimsy character.

And a fairly flimsy attacker. OK, maybe I shouldn't have said everything can one-shot a PC. Everything that's big and bossy that I've seen far is capable of it. The little mooks need help or a previously wounded PC, but they can often get them in two solid crits or about four good hits. Focus fire can be deadly.

Edge93 wrote:
Not to mention that the same situation in PF1 (getting critted for max damage) could instakill players with some of the monsters you might face at level 1 or really anything with a 2-handed weapon, to say. Or hint of how easily they go unconscious.

Sure. But PF1 didn't have built in hero points and free infinite OOC healing. It's obvious that the devs are trying to remedy the problem from PF1, but they've still got frequent unconsious heroes.

As long as they're working on the problem, why not let some of the solution keep these HEROES on their feet. Heroically. Same chance of dying but little or no chance of lying around like a limp dishrag while the true heroes finish the fight.

Edge93 wrote:

And that last paragraph of the quoted post is just riddled with logical fallacy.

Maybe. But it's not a fallacy to imagine scenarios and not find one that fits the situation.

I've seen everything I described with all die rolls out in the open. PCs going down. Repeatedly. Sometimes it's been multiple times in a single fight. I truly cannot imagine how the combats I've seen could have been finished without at least one of the things I mentioned. If it happened for you, great, but I still cannot imagine how.

Sure, I could imagine scenarios where the PCs stealthed around, set up ambushes, caught every enemy in box canyons or dead end rooms, killed them off at choke points Spartan-style. But to do that over and over, not get spotted, not fail a skill check, not have the GM react to any of these tactics, not have the singleton bosses crush some PCs choke point or not, not roll a couple lucky crits (or one lucky crit against a squishy PC), not fudge dice, not choose (deliberately or accidentally) sub-optimal tactics that I haven't mentioned here. No, certainly with a few of these fights, I don't imagine that is likely to happen, let alone to happen to all of the fights I'm thinking of to end up with a zero KO adventure.

You say it happened. I say that I imagine some of what I described might have made that possible.

Doesn't make it a logical fallacy. Maybe your info is incomplete. Maybe your GM is not much of a tactician. Maybe your group is forgetting some rules or playing them wrong. Maybe I am. Maybe your players are amazing and out-thinking every encounter. Maybe your players have built excellently optimized groups and use great tactics. Maybe your players are better at rolling crits than your GM. Maybe my imagination is not imaginative enough.

We'll never both know.


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DM_Blake wrote:

Possible solution:

Let's NOT go unconscious to Dying 1.

Let's JUST get a Wounded condition that might apply modifiers or limit actions or something else that makes the heroes feel limited by their wounds...

...BUT THEY STAY ON THEIR FEET AND KEEP BEING HEROIC!

They shrug it off John McClane style. They may be limping around, bleeding, gasping and wheezing, slower and squishier than they were at the start of the day, but they're still going and still killing bad guys.

If enough wounds pile up, sure, let em finally drop. Even McClane dropped at the end of Die Hard. He'd earned it.

I really, really like this idea. Have "wounded" replace dying entirely. NPCs already generally die when reduced to 0 with lethal damage, so dying was really only a PC condition anyway unless the GM wants to track it separately for NPCs. (I generally don't. If my players want to take an enemy alive, I think they should reasonably be expected to put effort into achieving that during the fight.)

Conscious, but with a penalty. And keep the conditions with which the condition goes away, too. So even if you get healed mid-fight, grievous wounds you may have already suffered can still potentially be your undoing, so there's still a definite incentive to not let yourself or your allies get to 0 in the first place.

I think I will steal this regardless of what happens with the rules coming out of the playtest.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My only problem with PCs staying conscious (and I don't mean this as a personal attack) is Collette. Or more accurately, GMs almost but not quite that brutal. A PC going down unconscious gives most GMs a convenient reason to have monsters shift to attacking other PCs.

I suspect if PCs stay conscious while dying, you will see more deaths, as more GMs don't see why the monster would stop murdering the dying PC.

If anything, I would solve the yo-yo problem by making it harder to get an unconscious PC back into the fight, because of that.

Scarab Sages

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John Mechalas wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that Hero Points feel like a cheap "get out of dying free" card, and I don't like them. I especially don't like how the "dodge death" ability is SO good that no sane PC would ever use the 2-point or 3-point abilities. "I can reroll one attack, or I can save my life three times? Huh, tough choice..."

Hear, hear.

Remember in PF1 how you could do really fun and cool things by spending one point, but it cost two points to rescue yourself from death?

So now we've reversed that, cut down on the cool things that you actually can do, and in compensation we give them out for things like "bringing food for the group" and "taking notes".

First time seing anyone saying that Hero Point were good in PF1.

I played with maybe 50 players and each time that was removed out of the game faster than light.


Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:

First time seing anyone saying that Hero Point were good in PF1.

I played with maybe 50 players and each time that was removed out of the game faster than light.

It depends on the GM. From the APG:

APG wrote:
Special: You can petition the GM to allow a hero point to be used to attempt nearly anything that would normally be almost impossible. Such uses are not guaranteed and should be considered carefully by the GM. Possibilities include casting a single spell that is one level higher than you could normally cast (or a 1st-level spell if you are not a spellcaster), making an attack that blinds a foe or bypasses its damage reduction entirely, or attempting to use Diplomacy to convince a raging dragon to give up its attack. Regardless of the desired action, the attempt should be accompanied by a difficult check or penalty on the attack roll. No additional hero points may be spent on such an attempt, either by the character or her allies.

We have used this version a handful of times (maybe five) to cast a spell one level higher, or a spell that we have but didn't memorize.

We also use it for the more mundane stuff, like acting out of turn or reinforcing a critical save.

Spending a hero point in our game is not frequent, but it has always been memorable. Acting out of turn saved one of our PC's life early on. That one stands out.

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