Is Wounded as lethal as RAW suggests? - CRITICAL FAQ


General Discussion


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Ok, so I was reading wounded condition and I think that is something odd and was not the intent of the game

Wounded Reference:
You have been seriously injured during a fight. As long as you have the wounded condition, if you gain the dying condition or increase it for any reason, increase the amount you gain or increase by your wounded value. The wounded condition ends if someone attends to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are healed to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

So by RAW:

1) If you have Dying 2 and Wounded 1, if you fail your Saving Throw by RAW you will get Dying 4, because you "increase the amount you gain ... by your wounded value"

Is this the intent? Because this seens REALLY LETHAL!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is pretty lethal but remember it's a lot easier to get someone up in this game. So yeah if you were already dropped if you drop again there's a risk you will die if you fail your death save, but your team will have all of their turns before you will need to make a save so they could save you with 30ft. heal spell or other means. And you will have time to try and get away when it does come to your turn before the thing that dropped you gets to go again.


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This seems deadlier than the original 1.0 dying rules. I thought the original rules seemed about right just had some corner cases/clarity of explanation/dc setting issues.

I'd say the compromise should be something like :

"You have been seriously injured during a fight. As long as you have the wounded condition, if you gain the dying condition, increase the amount you gain by your wounded value. The wounded condition ends if someone attends to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are healed to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

Ie Wounded only makes the initial dying level higher, not the save progression/alternate sources of increasing.


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It seems like they don't want wack a mole to be a thing. They want the idea of popping back up and fighting to be a rare risky thing.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Considering that all you have to do to get rid of wounded is survive the fight, I'm overall okay with this.


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Yeah, "or increase" does mean that if you are currently dying and would increase it, you're pretty much guaranteed to die. So you can't fail even a single recovery if you have even wounded 1.

That's part of why I suggested that a failed check on recovery be altered to "Your Dying value doesn't change." A critical failure is one thing, but a simple regular failure by 1 shouldn't immediately kill you.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MaxAstro wrote:
Considering that all you have to do to get rid of wounded is survive the fight, I'm overall okay with this.

More than just survive the fight - you've got to remove the condition, which CAN be difficult, depending on someone having a good Medicine skill, or a lot of magical healing.


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The question is not if it is ok or not, but was this the real intention?

By now, one failed save and you can be dead!


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Dante Doom wrote:

The question is not if it is ok or not, but was this the real intention?

By now, one failed save and you can be dead!

It's one failed save after you were dropped once, got back to your feet, and dropped again.

And that only if you don't have hero points.

First time you drop, you're not wounded, you get that when you get back to your feet.

Spending hero points while down, not only gets you up to your feet, but also clears the wounded.

So, you can:

Drop dying
Save/Get healed back up (gain wounded 1)
Drop dying again
Spend hero point and get back up
Drop dying again
Save/Get healed back up (gain wounded 1)
Drop dying again
Only NOW you need to absolutely make the save (or get healed back up by allies)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Considering that all you have to do to get rid of wounded is survive the fight, I'm overall okay with this.
More than just survive the fight - you've got to remove the condition, which CAN be difficult, depending on someone having a good Medicine skill, or a lot of magical healing.

You don't really need a competitive Medicine skill, just someone in the party with it Trained; they might have to treat wounds twice if they fail the first time, but even someone with a 12 Wisdom, all the way up at level 20, only Trained in Medicine (i.e. absolute bare minimum investment) has something like a 30% chance to succeed and only 25% chance to crit fail.


MaxAstro wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Considering that all you have to do to get rid of wounded is survive the fight, I'm overall okay with this.
More than just survive the fight - you've got to remove the condition, which CAN be difficult, depending on someone having a good Medicine skill, or a lot of magical healing.
You don't really need a competitive Medicine skill, just someone in the party with it Trained; they might have to treat wounds twice if they fail the first time, but even someone with a 12 Wisdom, all the way up at level 20, only Trained in Medicine (i.e. absolute bare minimum investment) has something like a 30% chance to succeed and only 25% chance to crit fail.

Considering the cost of an expert/master tools by 20 is peanuts, and that Wis is one of the most common raised stats, it's even easier.

Liberty's Edge

In you example the PC has already had the following happen to him.

He was reduced to 0 HP, went unconscious and got Dying 1

He was Healed inside Combat and brought above 0 HP, Removed Dying 1, Added Wounded 1

He was reduced to 0 HP again, went unconscious and got Dying 2, Wounded 1

At this point he can fail a Saving throw and just DIE. I personally think that's fine. They PC has already been taken below 0 twice in the course of a single round, besides this all ONLY occurs if the PC decides to waste all their Hero Points on other things. A single Hero Point being spent at ANY point in this process would bring them back up with no penalties whatsoever.


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This actually makes the "Wounded" condition mostly irrelevant.

The rule could be restated as: If you get knocked out and you recover naturally or somebody uses any magic or skill to help you recover, you remain seriously injured. There is a high risk that you will die if you're knocked out again. The next time you get knocked out you will immediately go to Dying 4 if you fail your first recovery save. Using a Hero Point or being healed for 10 minutes by somebody using the Medicine skill will negate this risk.


Themetricsystem wrote:

In you example the PC has already had the following happen to him.

He was reduced to 0 HP, went unconscious and got Dying 1

He was Healed inside Combat and brought above 0 HP, Removed Dying 1, Added Wounded 1

He was reduced to 0 HP again, went unconscious and got Dying 2, Wounded 1

At this point he can fail a Saving throw and just DIE. I personally think that's fine. They PC has already been taken below 0 twice in the course of a single round, besides this all ONLY occurs if the PC decides to waste all their Hero Points on other things. A single Hero Point being spent at ANY point in this process would bring them back up with no penalties whatsoever.

I can see a problem when there are waves of combats and no time to rest (like part 3 and 5 of DD). Since you don't have time to clear the wounded condition.


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Dante Doom wrote:
I can see a problem when there are waves of combats and no time to rest (like part 3 and 5 of DD). Since you don't have time to clear the wounded condition.

That's true, although IMO "multiple encounters in a row with zero rest between" should be a dangerous situation to be in.


By getting dying 2 when you already had wounded 1 means you just got crit. If you didn’t get reduced by a crit then you would be dying 1 and wounded 1 so combined for dying 2. Your allies have a full round to apply some healing before you have to roll.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rek Rollington wrote:
By getting dying 2 when you already had wounded 1 means you just got crit. If you didn’t get reduced by a crit then you would be dying 1 and wounded 1 so combined for dying 2. Your allies have a full round to apply some healing before you have to roll.

No because the dying condition adds the wounded condition anytime you gain or ADD TO the dying condition. so he's right you can die if you fail 1 save if you were already wounded 1. I too wonder if that's the intent although I don't mind games getting more deadly.


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They made it easier to die permanently to offset the increased post-combat healing. You are expected to lose PCs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

While I don't mind the rapid Hit Point healing of the medicine skill, I'm actually not that happy with the wounded condition. Purely because its soul purpose is a mechanical balance to the new healing rules.

I'd much rather make it a more substantial part of the game and have it represent actual difficult to heal injuries (something Hit Points don't even try to represent now).

My thought is that the condition would be changed something like this:

Wounded - Representing serious injuries received in battle.
• Having the wounded condition changes the point you die when using the dying system. When you gain the dying condition, add the wounded condition to it to determine the point of death. For example, normally death occurs at dying 4, if you have wounded 1 you instead die at dying 3 (wounded 1 + dying 3 = dying 4).

This tones the lethality in combat down a very small amount.

The big change:

• The Injured condition can be reduced by 1 for each full day of rest or by 1 after an 8 hour period of rest while being tended to by a healer who is trained in medicine. The spell Restoration if heightened to 4th will reduce the condition as described. The spell Regenerate will remove the condition at a rate of 1 per round.

The idea being this introduces lasting damage to our heroes, that's a little harder to remove without causing a significant negative effect to capabilities (which are rarely as much fun as they sound).

I've no idea if this is something that would be popular, it just appeals to my sensibilities.


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CaniestDog wrote:

While I don't mind the rapid Hit Point healing of the medicine skill, I'm actually not that happy with the wounded condition. Purely because its soul purpose is a mechanical balance to the new healing rules.

I'd much rather make it a more substantial part of the game and have it represent actual difficult to heal injuries (something Hit Points don't even try to represent now).

My thought is that the condition would be changed something like this:

Wounded - Representing serious injuries received in battle.
• Having the wounded condition changes the point you die when using the dying system. When you gain the dying condition, add the wounded condition to it to determine the point of death. For example, normally death occurs at dying 4, if you have wounded 1 you instead die at dying 3 (wounded 1 + dying 3 = dying 4).

This tones the lethality in combat down a very small amount.

The big change:

• The Injured condition can be reduced by 1 for each full day of rest or by 1 after an 8 hour period of rest while being tended to by a healer who is trained in medicine. The spell Restoration if heightened to 4th will reduce the condition as described. The spell Regenerate will remove the condition at a rate of 1 per round.

The idea being this introduces lasting damage to our heroes, that's a little harder to remove without causing a significant negative effect to capabilities (which are rarely as much fun as they sound).

I've no idea if this is something that would be popular, it just appeals to my sensibilities.

It's sole purpose was not because of the new treat wounds rules... about a week or two ago Jason said on stream that the new dying rules (with the slow condition) made substantially less player deaths, and they felt that there was a lot more of a popcorn effect (up and down up and down). The wounded condition rules address these issues.

Were the new healing rules taken into account too? Probably. But it wasn't the sole reason for the change.


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CaniestDog wrote:


Wounded - Representing serious injuries received in battle.
• Having the wounded condition changes the point you die when using the dying system. When you gain the dying condition, add the wounded condition to it to determine the point of death. For example, normally death occurs at dying 4, if you have wounded 1 you instead die at dying 3 (wounded 1 + dying 3 = dying 4).

I like this bit. I think that is the way wounded was intended to work, but someone thought too hard or not much at all how to get that intention into the rules text.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dire Ursus wrote:
CaniestDog wrote:

While I don't mind the rapid Hit Point healing of the medicine skill, I'm actually not that happy with the wounded condition. Purely because its soul purpose is a mechanical balance to the new healing rules.

I'd much rather make it a more substantial part of the game and have it represent actual difficult to heal injuries (something Hit Points don't even try to represent now).

My thought is that the condition would be changed something like this:

Wounded - Representing serious injuries received in battle.
• Having the wounded condition changes the point you die when using the dying system. When you gain the dying condition, add the wounded condition to it to determine the point of death. For example, normally death occurs at dying 4, if you have wounded 1 you instead die at dying 3 (wounded 1 + dying 3 = dying 4).

This tones the lethality in combat down a very small amount.

The big change:

• The Injured condition can be reduced by 1 for each full day of rest or by 1 after an 8 hour period of rest while being tended to by a healer who is trained in medicine. The spell Restoration if heightened to 4th will reduce the condition as described. The spell Regenerate will remove the condition at a rate of 1 per round.

The idea being this introduces lasting damage to our heroes, that's a little harder to remove without causing a significant negative effect to capabilities (which are rarely as much fun as they sound).

I've no idea if this is something that would be popular, it just appeals to my sensibilities.

It's sole purpose was not because of the new treat wounds rules... about a week or two ago Jason said on stream that the new dying rules (with the slow condition) made substantially less player deaths, and they felt that there was a lot more of a popcorn effect (up and down up and down). The wounded condition rules address these issues.

Were the new healing rules taken into account too? Probably. But it wasn't the sole reason for the change.

The other big benefit is story telling. The wounded condition creates opportunities to execute one of most popular tropes in fiction: leaping back into the fight despite being mortally wounded. And better yet, this is now a choice the player makes. Do they fall back when they get wounded 2 and try desperately to survive? Or do they leap back into the fray to try and save their friends by finishing the same enemy who has pushed them to the brink of the abyss?

That kind of decision defines characters.


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Okay, so basically you have four turns to be revived the first time you get dying, two turns the second and third time you get dying, and you're dead the fourth time you gain dying. So basically good luck surviving low levels.


Grave Knight wrote:
Okay, so basically you have four turns to be revived the first time you get dying, two turns the second and third time you get dying, and you're dead the fourth time you gain dying. So basically good luck surviving low levels.

How often do you usually get dropped in the same fight?


In the first playtest game I was in since update 1.3, I only saw two characters go down. Both were successfully healed and reentered the fight while Wounded 1. Neither was dropped a second time because we had a fairly well balanced party where several characters presented a significant threat and two characters had magical healing capability. (One pregen Kyra and one paladin with the Channel Life power.)


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How about being able to spend a hero point to remove a Wound? Would give some use for that other then removing dying when you only have one, which would be very useful in games where the GM doesn't think to give out extra hero points and the players don't want to pester the GM for hero points.


Joey Cote wrote:
How about being able to spend a hero point to remove a Wound? Would give some use for that other then removing dying when you only have one, which would be very useful in games where the GM doesn't think to give out extra hero points and the players don't want to pester the GM for hero points.

I believe if you use a Hero Point to come up from Dying, you do not gain the Wounded condition. So, you can basically do what your asking now if its used while down.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
CaniestDog wrote:


Wounded - Representing serious injuries received in battle.
• Having the wounded condition changes the point you die when using the dying system. When you gain the dying condition, add the wounded condition to it to determine the point of death. For example, normally death occurs at dying 4, if you have wounded 1 you instead die at dying 3 (wounded 1 + dying 3 = dying 4).
I like this bit. I think that is the way wounded was intended to work, but someone thought too hard or not much at all how to get that intention into the rules text.

Bringing this up again: in the second part of the Paizo plays Doomsday Dawn Twitch streams Mark Seifter (briefly) explained that this is not the intent.

So being at wounded 1 and getting dropped to (below) 0 hp brings you to dying 2, getting hit again or failing the recovery save brings you to dying 4 = dead (in most cases).

---------------

Data Lore wrote:
Joey Cote wrote:
How about being able to spend a hero point to remove a Wound? Would give some use for that other then removing dying when you only have one, which would be very useful in games where the GM doesn't think to give out extra hero points and the players don't want to pester the GM for hero points.
I believe if you use a Hero Point to come up from Dying, you do not gain the Wounded condition. So, you can basically do what your asking now if its used while down.

Even better:

Heroic Recovery wrote:
You can spend 1 Hero Point (see page 300) at the start of your turn or when your dying value would increase in order to return to 1 Hit Point, no matter how close to death you are. You lose the dying and wounded conditions and become conscious.

If you somehow ended up at wounded 3 or even wounded 4 and are brought down (your dying value would increase that instant) you can immediately spend that Hero Point and be at 1 hp, not wounded.


FitzTheRuke wrote:
Grave Knight wrote:
Okay, so basically you have four turns to be revived the first time you get dying, two turns the second and third time you get dying, and you're dead the fourth time you gain dying. So basically good luck surviving low levels.
How often do you usually get dropped in the same fight?

With the amount of damage stuff is doing? Fairly easily. They didn't set out to combat yo-yoing because it was never happening, after all. Unless the person healing you is a Healing domain wielding Cleric, it's very easy to get knocked back down again in one hit.

It hardly matters since you can just spend a hero point to wipe out dying AND wounded at any time, so people will be saving all hero points to do that.

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