1.3 - Treat Wounds - Stamina is still better


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Silver Crusade

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Ascalaphus wrote:

"Tracking two pools is hard"

No, it really isn't. You do it all the time.
What I get for trying to be succinct. Tracking two health pools is really annoying
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Your barbarian tracks hit points AND rage rounds. Your sorcerer tracks spells per day of each level separately. You can track arcane pool for your magus and his black blade separate.
Yes and those (much smaller) resource pools are much easier track than a separate HP pool, which only do down when you choose to use them. Especially with Rage, which has a linear usage.
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And it really works quite easily. [Stamina usage scenario]

If it is always that linear then yes, but then you have attacks that bypass Stamina, or you take enough damage that it reduces your HP and then you heal* Stamina but not HP, you're still having to track two different HP pools.

*Another thing, which you inadvertently brought up, is [hp] healers get hosed in the Stamina system since until you take HP damage they don't have anything to heal, so investing in healing would not go over as well.

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The very small overhead of tracking two numbers is much smaller than having to make multiple skill checks after each encounter and remembering that Joe is bolstered against Bob's Treat Wounds because he critfailed, but that Paul could still be healed by Bob because he didn't get hurt in that first encounter so didn't get un-healed, but he's bolstered against Joe after Joe critfailed after the third encounter.
It's not small, especially for martials, and you made the second part sound vastly more confusing than it actually is (when you were much more eloquent describing spending Resolve to recover above in the Stamina system). Making the skill checks to heal is no more load bearing than casting spells/using wands/Resolve to heal up. As for bolstering, "hey you can't heal me anymore today" done.
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"What do Stamina and HP represent"/verisimilitude

Both of them represent your health.
Then why bother having both?
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You're an action hero, Die Hard style. You can take a beating, but by the next scene you've shrugged most of it off. Only when people give you a sustained pounding does it really carry over into the next scene (i.e. hit point damage). Doesn't mean that those other hits didn't touch you, just that that's something you can still easily recover from.
Not a bad summation of Stamina.
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So yeah, they represent the same thing. Stamina is a lot like temporary hit poins in Pathfinder, except they last longer. If you get hit by a poisoned weapon it doesn't matter if you still have stamina / temporary hit points; you get exposed to the poison. Stamina doesn't represent "near misses", it represents your ability to recover quickly from some of your injuries. If you didn't take a really heavy beating, then you'll be back to full power in the next scene.

I think what's coded it for me was one developer saying it represented dodging as well, and that stuck with me, I'd have to look in my Starfinder book when I get home and read if that actually made it in.

But then that still gets a little weird with Critical Hits.

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Is that realistic? That's the wrong question; the right question is, "does it match narrative conventions"? Nothing about people getting more hit points for getting a degree in applied wizardry is realistic. But it does fit the style of the genre we're playing.
And so does having awesome healing.
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"I don't know if this ability should target stamina or hit points?"

You just deal damage. If the guy still has stamina that's lost first, just like temporary hit points. Abilities don't (except for maybe some really scary necromancy) get to go directly to your "real" HP.
Precisely, there are "excepts".
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"People don't spend resolve on other things in Starfinder"

Yes they do. At higher levels you get more abilities that use Resolve and you also get more Resolve. A cautious player reserves enough Resolve to recover from 3-4 fights, but anything beyond that can certainly be used for other things. Especially if those things will let you win faster and give enemies less time to hurt you.
You're forgetting the major reason someone would be averse to using Resolve. You bleed it when you go down. You don't have any Resolve? You're dead.
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Finally, my main reason why I think Treat Wounds is a bad idea remains:

The end of the adventuring day should not happen because someone randomly crit-fails a post-combat healing check
Imagine a PFS scenario where someone haplessly rolls a 1 after the first encounter. Do they now go through the scenario without any more healing? Pause for the day and fail the mission? This is way too swingy for a "level playing field" organized play format.

Why is the only source of healing in the entire group just one person trained in Medicine? Is no one else? Is there no potions or wands or casters?

All things considered having to stop the adventuring day because you ran out of healing isn't that bad, the same thing happens in Pathfinder and Starfinder (though in the latter's case it's run out/low on Resolve).

Silver Crusade

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Matthew Downie wrote:

Yes?

The first couple of attacks reduce your stamina. The next strike actually draws blood (reduces your HP) - in this hypothetical system. This is how NPCs know the PC is out of stamina.

There's too much meta going on here, instead of lacing their weapon for a surprise attack or to make the fight go in their favor they hope they can wear their opponent down so they can take the time to apply poison to finish them... which goes against the whole point of using poison in the first place. Why would they waste time with the poison when they have the advantage in the fight, thus giving their opponent an opening, if they can beat their opponent as is?

The whole point of poisons is you don't have to fight someone at their full potential, if at all.


Why would the NPC not put the poison on their dagger before the fight so they can start inflicting poison damage as soon as the PC is out of stamina and they can land their first real hit? (Or on the first attack, if we're using the rule that attacks against flat-footed characters bypass stamina.)

I'm not clear on what system you're arguing against; maybe you're using different poison rules to me?

Silver Crusade

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Matthew Downie wrote:

Why would the NPC not put the poison on their dagger before the fight so they can start inflicting poison damage as soon as the PC is out of stamina and they can land their first real hit? (Or on the first attack, if we're using the rule that attacks against flat-footed characters bypass stamina.)

I'm not clear on what system you're arguing against; maybe you're using different poison rules to me?

Poisons last on only one hit (unless I miss where they changed that), which means it will never get applied because it takes more than one attack to get through their Stamina.


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Ok, for my preferred playstyle which would be reminiscent of books or literature, I think that some form of stamina system is a really good basis for damage. As mentioned, most starting wounds wear you down for an encounter, but you can bounce back when you get a chance to recover your wits or get your second wind.

The basic HP as one big pool and wands of CLW or generous application of Treat Wounds is a different (but perfectly valid genre). For me it is the genre I associate with playing Diablo. A mostly mindless hack and slash. Keep going until you run out of resources, then go up and convert treasure into resources and head on back in. It isn't particularly conducive to meaningful plots, for me. Just a game of resources.

To be completely honest. I think I'm for P2 using a basic HP system. But not because it would be my favorite. Instead, I'd like to see the system simple enough that it can have built in optional rules that can help people scale the game easily to fit their taste.

Simple options such as any of the following can exist then.
Free Full HP healing outside of combat between non-interconnected scenes via short rests.
Healing isn't free but Magic Healing outside of combat, used in conjunction with short rest boosts you back to full.
Healing used out of combat always does max healing. (or double if something already grants max healing)
Treat Wounds can be used as much as needed, critical failures just bolster you for an hour.
Treat Wounds bolstering could be removed by the application of any magical healing of HP.

Or you slow natural healing down if it feels out of place.
Treat wounds can only be used once a day on a person.
Treat wounds can not be used to treat the same damage more than once a day. Meaning after the first application of treat wounds, you can't use treat wounds to recover any of the remaining damage. However, if you take additional damage later on, you can attempt to treat that damage, but any overflow would not cure any old damage.

If you feel magic healing is overused... (not really my personal style, but something that could be used to curb CLW sticks)
Magic healing might only be able to heal old damage once a day. New damage can always be healed but any remaining would need to be healed naturally or with time making another healing available.
The above might only apply to impersonal, magic item based healing rather than direct application of spells.

You might be able to mix whichever of the above you fell fits your players view of the right genre.

Adding Stamina, splitting the HP in half would enable you to have the more vital half of your HP much harder to heal save for once a day or fresh damage, but have stamina be able to be healed either completely or partially via a short rest or treatment. Normal healing always applies first to HP damage, then will spill over into stamina. (although, out of combat, stamina is easily improved without magic)

Anyway, although I like stamina in the end, I'd prefer the system be designed that stamina becomes a very easy optional rule that slides right in for a generally long adventure day, but creates a situation where you really don't want to be losing many of your last half of your HPs in any encounter.


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Rysky wrote:
Poisons last on only one hit (unless I miss where they changed that), which means it will never get applied because it takes more than one attack to get through their Stamina.

If the poison doesn't get through because it wasn't a real hit because they only took Stamina damage, then an obvious follow-up rule is that the poison doesn't get consumed because it wasn't a real hit.


In my own games I have modified Treat Wounds so that it affects only ONE person and it can be used only once per encounter.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Poisons last on only one hit (unless I miss where they changed that), which means it will never get applied because it takes more than one attack to get through their Stamina.
If the poison doesn't get through because it wasn't a real hit because they only took Stamina damage, then an obvious follow-up rule is that the poison doesn't get consumed because it wasn't a real hit.

The problem is that in the current rules poison doesn't care if it was a hit at all, let alone a 'real' hit. Poison gets consumed after one attack, regardless of how successful it was.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Poisons last on only one hit (unless I miss where they changed that), which means it will never get applied because it takes more than one attack to get through their Stamina.
If the poison doesn't get through because it wasn't a real hit because they only took Stamina damage, then an obvious follow-up rule is that the poison doesn't get consumed because it wasn't a real hit.

This is getting into a lot of corner case rules that's sadly making the whole thing really clunky.


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So why are we trying to dis the idea based on poor implementation in another system when the obvious answer is "well don't make that mistake again."

Poison works if you hits. Stamina represents nicks, bruises small cuts. HP represents lacerations, cracked bones etc. Done. Poison can still enter the body through a minor non life threatening injury. See one of the most popular hunting style, poison darts.


Idea for sneak attacks and critical hits. Instead of doubling damage on a crit, it does standard damage but both to stamina and HP. Sneak attack dice go directly to HP.


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Malk_Content wrote:

So why are we trying to dis the idea based on poor implementation in another system when the obvious answer is "well don't make that mistake again."

Poison works if you hits. Stamina represents nicks, bruises small cuts. HP represents lacerations, cracked bones etc. Done. Poison can still enter the body through a minor non life threatening injury. See one of the most popular hunting style, poison darts.

I agree with this.

And if the poison primarily does extra damage, if hitting someone with fresh stamina, the poison just slows them down a bit, making them ache, muscles burn, and such. Things that will eventually wear off. If the hit took most of the last of their stamina, and the poison causes the damage to venture into their HP, it simply mean the poison has been able to get far enough into the system to cause more lasting effects.

If the poison does non-hp damage effects, they still got a hit, so sure, allow it to take effect. You don't have to make it a big ordeal to handle. Poison's are nasty effects. You don't want them getting in you. If someone want's to portray a particular instance of taking stamina as a non-contact wound, that is fine from a story perspective, if it suits the story. But, no, if there is poison involved, it probably isn't a good description of the action.

You can skin the combat however works, as long as it works. You don't skin the combat, and then argue a change of ruling based on the skin you based on being a reasonable representation of the rules. So could a lost stamina representation getting winded by dodging a fist or arrow. It might not just being winded, it could be dodging and rolling your ankle for instance. It could been any of those things, as long as it doesn't change a ruling about taking poison damage, or something else.

Stamina is an abstraction that lets one layer of damage be easily replenished between scenes, while acknowledging other sorts of wounds may last past individual scenes without some extenuating circumstances.

If you prefer to always be pulled back up to full between scenes, then stamina won't appeal to your. That is a simple reality. If you like people to take a small bit of a pounding and be able to be back pretty much to normal in the next scene, but if they allow themselves to get pounded into the dirt, they are going to be hurting still in the next scene, even though they will have regained some reserves, that is where a Stamina implementation gets to shine.

If really your only problem with it is that you really don't like 'tracking two pools', another similar but single pool option would be. If your HP is more than half your max, you get either free usage of Treat Wounds, or simply always fill back up to full after a short rest. If you are at half your HP or less, your current wounds become bolstered against treat wounds after a single use, or your HP get raised above half your Max again. Then you only have one pool, and you monitor two states (empty and half) In this method magic could be used to boost you back up to half, so you can refresh yourself normally.

Actually the above is similar to using the sometimes defined 'bloodied' state I've seen in the past. Bloodied meant you had lost at least half your HP. If Bloodied become a condition, you could limit Treat wounds by bolstering it if the target is still bloodied after the application of the healing. (perhaps allow critical success to not bolster the wounds)

Silver Crusade

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Loreguard wrote:
Stamina is an abstraction
On top of another abstraction, HP.
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If you prefer to always be pulled back up to full between scenes, then stamina won't appeal to your. That is a simple reality. If you like people to take a small bit of a pounding and be able to be back pretty much to normal in the next scene, but if they allow themselves to get pounded into the dirt, they are going to be hurting still in the next scene, even though they will have regained some reserves, that is where a Stamina implementation gets to shine.

Not really?

You get hurt, heal some before the next fight.

Your Stamina gets depleted, you refill some before the next fight.

Not really much of a difference since they're both abstractions and so can be abstracted/flavored however you want.

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If really your only problem
See my first comment here.
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with it is that you really don't like 'tracking two pools', another similar but single pool option would be. If your HP is more than half your max, you get either free usage of Treat Wounds, or simply always fill back up to full after a short rest. If you are at half your HP or less, your current wounds become bolstered against treat wounds after a single use, or your HP get raised above half your Max again. Then you only have one pool, and you monitor two states (empty and half) In this method magic could be used to boost you back up to half, so you can refresh yourself normally.

Hmm, not sure how I feel about this but it's interesting nonetheless (just as long as we don't get into taking penalties the more wounded you are like some games).


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Poisons last on only one hit (unless I miss where they changed that), which means it will never get applied because it takes more than one attack to get through their Stamina.
If the poison doesn't get through because it wasn't a real hit because they only took Stamina damage, then an obvious follow-up rule is that the poison doesn't get consumed because it wasn't a real hit.

A person can be injected with something and not take significant physical damage. The Stamina system reflects this just fine. You took a scratch, got stung, etc. It's not enough physical harm to be reflected in hit point loss, but the poison is now in your bloodstream...


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I don't have a PF playtest group going so I can't speak at-table usage of Treat Wounds in play, but I'm not a huge fan of it as presented.

I am playing in and running Starfinder campaigns and had the chance to run it again this holiday weekend.

Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play. The stamina mechanic works out in-game by the players' comments and actions as "need to rest for a few minutes" --> "ok, let's go" and "we're hurt pretty badly and need to regroup". It just happens organically. The 15-min adventuring day is gone, retreating/regrouping and resting is a strategic choice, and healers are relevant for treating HP faster without being a requirement of survival.

More time is spent adventuring, it feels more thematically appropriate, and it actually increases immersion rather than decreases it.

PF2 should really be looking at this Starfinder sub-system. I know Jason has commented on "different genre" approach, but my players - all of whom are PF1 fans, VASTLY prefer this system. And it sure as hell feels a lot closer to the fantasy fiction (novels, film, etc.) than any cure light wounds wand, quick-heal mechanic, or combat healing ever has.

Silver Crusade

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BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.

It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.


Rysky wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.
It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.

Ah, the old paradox of "useful, therefore never use".

Silver Crusade

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Snowblind wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.
It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.
Ah, the old paradox of "useful, therefore never use".

Of a sort, there's a hierarchy.

1) You bleed Resolve when you go down.
2) You need Resolve to use a Short Rest.
3) You need Resolve to use your cool class abilities.

1 and 2 heavily restrict 3, and you have to carefully weigh 2 against 1.


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BPorter wrote:


Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play. .... And it sure as hell feels a lot closer to the fantasy fiction (novels, film, etc.) than any cure light wounds wand, quick-heal mechanic, or combat healing ever has.

Completely agreed.

The only issue with Resolve, as Rysky points out, is that it's used for other abilities, and since survival is so important those abilities don't get used nearly as much. When I make Starfinder characters I intentionally avoid taking and using options that rely on Resolve, and as a consequence the system feels great.

Using resolve to bring yourself back to full combat strength but also bringing yourself closer to death if you do go down adds appropriate tension and risk, and removes the whackamole problem entirely.

In play our group as very much enjoyed the Starfinder system and I would take it over the current Wounds system any day. Thematically, I don't mind the PF1e system of HP and CLW wands, however.


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Rysky wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.
It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.
Ah, the old paradox of "useful, therefore never use".

Of a sort, there's a hierarchy.

1) You bleed Resolve when you go down.
2) You need Resolve to use a Short Rest.
3) You need Resolve to use your cool class abilities.

1 and 2 heavily restrict 3, and you have to carefully weigh 2 against 1.

Of course 3 should trump 1 and 2 quite often. Its the same complaint as Resonance that is logically dull. Yes it is used for survivability, but if using the resource reduces the need for survivability in another way then it doesn't matter. E.G Being able to invisible past an enemy for a RP (resolve or resonance) alleviates the need to spend that RP on healing because you avoided getting hurt altogether.

Of course we could also just have Stamina without resolve, or don't tie resolve to any powers and fix those critisisms while still preserving the idea that heroes can struggle through some pain whilst more serious damage is potentially long lasting.


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Rysky wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.
It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.

Your table's experience may differ, but what I stated was 100% accurate for my table's experience. Resolve gets used. It's a tactical decision and can bear risk at times but my players aren't holding onto Resolve points to the detriment of doing other things. Perhaps your table prefers the "overwhelming odds of success" style of play and holds onto Resolve but that isn't the system's fault.

All of which is largely inconsequential since the bulk of the comments were directed towards the Stamina-Hit Point interaction. Starfinder's Stamina/Hit Point subsystem is superior to anything on the healing front that has been presented in PF2.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Of course 3 should trump 1 and 2 quite often. Its the same complaint as Resonance that is logically dull. Yes it is used for survivability, but if using the resource reduces the need for survivability in another way then it doesn't matter. E.G Being able to invisible past an enemy for a RP (resolve or resonance) alleviates the need to spend that RP on healing because you avoided getting hurt altogether.

Except when a lot of Resolve point abilities won't actually reduce healing by a lot, and one that I found in a brief skim of one class (Envoy) will actually increase your need for healing, since now everyone will probably be attacking you. Resolve point abilities in Starfinder are frequently little more than minor buffs or debuffs, something rarely worth being roughly 10% or more (some abilities I saw cost 2 Resolve points) closer to death if an enemy gets a lucky crit on you. And from what we've seen of PF2e there's not much reason to believe anything that would be fueled by a new Resolve system would be any better, and may in fact be worse.

Silver Crusade

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BPorter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Stamina/HP/Resolve is just freaking elegant in play.
It's really not, mainly because of how Resolve is used for everything, and therefore gets used for barely anything.

Your table's experience may differ, but what I stated was 100% accurate for my table's experience. Resolve gets used. It's a tactical decision and can bear risk at times but my players aren't holding onto Resolve points to the detriment of doing other things. Perhaps your table prefers the "overwhelming odds of success" style of play and holds onto Resolve but that isn't the system's fault.

All of which is largely inconsequential since the bulk of the comments were directed towards the Stamina-Hit Point interaction. Starfinder's Stamina/Hit Point subsystem is superior to anything on the healing front that has been presented in PF2.

I don't see how not wanting to die when you get knocked out is a "'overwhelming odds of success' style of play".

Back to table variation, yes, the games I've played and heard from Resolve was stagnating rather than enabling, almost no class abilities reliant on it (aside from the Envoy's healing) were used because you also used it for healing and not dying.

Comparing Health/Treat Wounds/Dying Check vs Health/Stamina/Resolve I vastly prefer the former and consider them superior and less clunky to the latter.

Silver Crusade

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WatersLethe wrote:
The only issue with Resolve, as Rysky points out, is that it's used for other abilities, and since survival is so important those abilities don't get used nearly as much. When I make Starfinder characters I intentionally avoid taking and using options that rely on Resolve, and as a consequence the system feels great.

If a core system actively discourages people from taking/using other core presented options that are supposed to be used more readily then that is a severe issue in the system.


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Rysky wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
The only issue with Resolve, as Rysky points out, is that it's used for other abilities, and since survival is so important those abilities don't get used nearly as much. When I make Starfinder characters I intentionally avoid taking and using options that rely on Resolve, and as a consequence the system feels great.
If a core system actively discourages people from taking/using other core presented options that are supposed to be used more readily then that is a severe issue in the system.

Yes, but as a system purely for health management, it's great! It can be brought to PF2e without tying resolve into class abilities.

Silver Crusade

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WatersLethe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
The only issue with Resolve, as Rysky points out, is that it's used for other abilities, and since survival is so important those abilities don't get used nearly as much. When I make Starfinder characters I intentionally avoid taking and using options that rely on Resolve, and as a consequence the system feels great.
If a core system actively discourages people from taking/using other core presented options that are supposed to be used more readily then that is a severe issue in the system.
Yes, but as a system purely for health management, it's great! It can be brought to PF2e without tying resolve into class abilities.

That would be an improvement over Starfinder's own version.

Silver Crusade

Rysky wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
The only issue with Resolve, as Rysky points out, is that it's used for other abilities, and since survival is so important those abilities don't get used nearly as much. When I make Starfinder characters I intentionally avoid taking and using options that rely on Resolve, and as a consequence the system feels great.
If a core system actively discourages people from taking/using other core presented options that are supposed to be used more readily then that is a severe issue in the system.
Yes, but as a system purely for health management, it's great! It can be brought to PF2e without tying resolve into class abilities.
That would be an improvement over Starfinder's own version.

Maybe, another point of view is that actually having a way to spend that resource on other things is a good thing, though a pool just for health management might work better for PF2.


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Stamina is a good rule, until you try healing a friendly allied monster's (non-existent) stamina and all immersion goes down in a smoldering mess...


The immersion issue already exists in any game where NPCs have different rules. ("I'll lend him my spare +3 axe." "Why? His damage isn't dependent on his weapon.")

Still, you could give the friendly allied monster stamina, or you could say, "the friendly allied monster is spurting blood from that last injury; Heal Stamina isn't going to do the trick"...

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Matthew Downie wrote:

The immersion issue already exists in any game where NPCs have different rules. ("I'll lend him my spare +3 axe." "Why? His damage isn't dependent on his weapon.")

Still, you could give the friendly allied monster stamina, or you could say, "the friendly allied monster is spurting blood from that last injury; Heal Stamina isn't going to do the trick"...

"But he just got scratched?"

Or Short Rests being the only way you have to regain Stamina, rather than an Envoy equivalent? having to have a specific healer just sours the thing even more.

And also brings up the issue of the PCs and NPCs not just having different rules, but completely alien rules to each other.

Tangent, but if we found a weapon we were just going to sell and came across an NPC that could use it and the GM just told us not to bother because ti wouldn't change anything that would a serious glare.

"You can't interact with NPCs other than to kill them" is not a good system.


I came into his thread late, many of my comments are on early posts.

BPorter wrote:
For all the difficulty this represents, you might as well say "you auto-heal after combat" - which, in case it needs to be said, would suck and completely ruin any chance of immersion for myself and almost every player I've ever played a RPG with.

I would not mind this, its actually close to how I run things in home games. I never got into the resource tracking game.

BPorter wrote:
Part of my issue is the ability to fully heal hp via Treat Wounds up to full hit points without magic. A problem multiplied by the fact that no resources are managed or consumed in doing so. We went from "depletion of most/all healing resources" or 15-min adventuring day to "virtually guaranteeing full HP before each combat". For FREE.

This is how you address bugs in the system - by creating workarounds. The 10-minute adventuring day was a bug. Now only spellcasters have this bug. I do agree that Stamina is a better solution, like you say in later posts.

Gloom wrote:
If anything the only thing that I feel should be 'tracked' as a resource would be Healer's Kit resources. As of right now there are no resources to track there.

Please do NOT introduce tracking of healers kit uses. This was one of the most annoying features of PF1, an almost negligible cost and weight that still had to be tracked for no good reason at all.

wizardmark wrote:
I'm curious where the "we shouldn't need a healer" movement comes from. Is it the younger crowd, accustomed to video game-esque mechanics where everything rapidly replenishes? I feel as if older generation players (with roots in 1E or maybe 2E) are less likely to feel that way. I might be wrong, I have no real data to back this thinking aside from other 1E/2E people I talk to who don't seem to mind the need for a dedicated healer (or a spread of classes that give you the same thing).

I started playing back in 1979, and I'm definitely in the Quick Healing crowd. I think the dividing line here is between those who think of DnD as a game of strategy with resource management, and those who think of it as an action adventure. Action heroes never have to tally resources from fight to fight. I'm in the action adventure camp.

Wolfism wrote:
Idea for sneak attacks and critical hits. Instead of doubling damage on a crit, it does standard damage but both to stamina and HP. Sneak attack dice go directly to HP.

D20 modern tried this. it didn't work out well. Its WAY too lethal, and would be even more so in PF2 where rogues are have abilities that let them sneak attack almost every time. It also creates odd situations where some players damage Stamina and some damage Hp and if the Hp go down first, all the stamina damage was completely irrelevant.


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Lucas Yew wrote:
Stamina is a good rule, until you try healing a friendly allied monster's (non-existent) stamina and all immersion goes down in a smoldering mess...

Well that isn't really difficult. Stamina healing a staminaless entity just converts it to HP healing.

In a new rules system we could easily state something along the lines of "while we do not differentiate NPC HP from Stamina for speed of play as the distinction is not important in 95% of cases, if the need arises NPCs health can be divided evenly for HP and Stamina with odd numbers going to HP if required.

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Malk_Content wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:
Stamina is a good rule, until you try healing a friendly allied monster's (non-existent) stamina and all immersion goes down in a smoldering mess...

Well that isn't really difficult. Stamina healing a staminaless entity just converts it to HP healing.

In a new rules system we could easily state something along the lines of "while we do not differentiate NPC HP from Stamina for speed of play as the distinction is not important in 95% of cases, if the need arises NPCs health can be divided evenly for HP and Stamina with odd numbers going to HP if required.

Then that just goes back to the beginning of "why bother having two distinct pools then?".

If NPCs have increased Health pools to match PCs' Health+Stamina pools and they can heal their HP by both Health and Stamina recovering abilities why have them be separate pools requiring separate healing abilities for PCs?


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Rysky wrote:


If NPCs have increased Health pools to match PCs' Health+Stamina pools and they can heal their HP by both Health and Stamina recovering abilities why have them be separate pools requiring separate healing abilities for PCs?

Because, on average, you don't _require_ a dedicated healer in a party with the Stamina rules. Between combats, and a short rest, you can heal about half your health points without the need for magic. You can have a party of a Fighter, Thief, Bard and Wizard, when no one at the table wants to play a heal-bot.

It's far more cinematic. How often in movies do you see a cleric healing the adventurers between engagements? Maybe once in _all_ the live D&D movies? The D&D cartoons didn't even have a cleric in the party. Other Fantasy don't use healing-magic between combats, unless it is an actual death-level set of wounds. Nicks and scratches, bah.. Next!

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But then you're limited by your Resolve, which in turn limits what class abilities you can do, and if you want to do either at all in case you get knocked out so you don't die.

Shain Edge wrote:
It's far more cinematic. How often in movies do you see a cleric healing the adventurers between engagements?

How many movies have Clerics?

How many movies have people nap for 10 minutes to shrug off wounds?


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Napping is a disingenuous way to describe it.

"Taking a breather" is a much more apt was to describe the concept. And it's not to treat wounds, but to regain stamina. Actual wounds still require other healing. The beauty of stamina has been that it represents your "near miss" situations in which you don't take real physical damage, but are being worn down. And while I don't have examples off the top of my head, I feel like there are probably a sufficient number of scenarios of "let's rest before we do anything else".

If nothing else, it simply makes sense to me at face value.

And this is not to say that stamina doesn't have problems, I just think it fixes more issues than it solves.

But the main reason we wont get Starfinder style stamina in PF2, is because the devs have said that want cleric style required healing to be a thing. They want it to be a trope, basically.


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Rysky wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:
Stamina is a good rule, until you try healing a friendly allied monster's (non-existent) stamina and all immersion goes down in a smoldering mess...

Well that isn't really difficult. Stamina healing a staminaless entity just converts it to HP healing.

In a new rules system we could easily state something along the lines of "while we do not differentiate NPC HP from Stamina for speed of play as the distinction is not important in 95% of cases, if the need arises NPCs health can be divided evenly for HP and Stamina with odd numbers going to HP if required.

Then that just goes back to the beginning of "why bother having two distinct pools then?".

If NPCs have increased Health pools to match PCs' Health+Stamina pools and they can heal their HP by both Health and Stamina recovering abilities why have them be separate pools requiring separate healing abilities for PCs?

Because NPCs and PCs are made with, and use, different rules. A monster's life is measured in rounds. A PC's life is measured in levels. You need slightly more complex rules for dealing with PC health than NPC health because PCs are the stars of the show.

The "added complexity" of two, completely linear damage pools is honestly so minor that even my non-gaming best friend understood it immediately. Poison and the Mystic's life link are the only things that ignore Stamina and go straight to hit points right now, and those very rarely come up. Maybe this will change as more supplements come out, but I doubt there will ever be a consistent question of whether damage goes to Stamina or Hit Points on a round-to-round basis, which is the only time I would grant that perhaps the two health pools were a little too complex.

One of the old Star Wars RPGs had a Stamina/Health system, and the difference between crits and normal shots is that normal shots took out Stamina first, and crits did no extra damage but went straight to Health. I like the idea conceptually, but it's a little beyond Pathfinder/Starfinder's remit.

The Stamina system is fantastic. Last night my Starfinder Society character got beaten up by Space Cuttlefish and took all of my Stamina and about 8 hit points of damage while the rest of my party shot them to pieces. We happened to have a Mystic with us, and he used one Healing Channel and I was good to go after a 10 minute rest (while my undamaged party looted some crates). There was no interruption of the flow of the game while someone made several checks to fix me, the tank, up before we could move on.

And I still had plenty of Resolve. The fact that it is the same pool as is used for character abilities is EXACTLY THE SAME risk/reward process that a cleric goes through when considering how many healing resources to keep on hand and how many to expend on doing cool things in combat. I've listened to some podcasts of high level play, and high level characters have enough Resolve that they aren't shy about blowing it on KOOL POWERZ... because, frankly, using your cool powers well makes you less likely to NEED to use your Resolve to Not Die.


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Honestly, although I know/understand why StarFinder kept the stamina and HP pool healing separate, but I don't know that I would bother stopping HP healing from spilling over into Stamina. Really, given that stamina is easier to recover, using healing that heals HP to recover stamina is normally going to be paying a high premium, so I'd probably simply allow it, but have it only heal the same number of stamina. (rest/taking a breather is more effective at restoring stamina than healing magic, but healing does relax or help them to a degree)

Stamina could be gated by use of some mechanic similar to resolve. If that is chosen, it could compete for other uses, or it might just be a dedicated pool not unlike Healing Surges. Alternately, it also could be simply be made freely available by use of short resting periods of 10 minutes.

Even if damage always went through stamina first, it would mean that if someone takes a pounding, they will likely be noticeably worse for the wear in their next scene, unless they make use of a much more limited healing resource pool. If someone takes poison damage when they still have stamina left, who cares. The hit only transferred a little of the poison so the damage they take due to it simply counts off their Stamina instead of HP until they run out of Stamina.

If I implemented Stamina, off the top of my head, I'd probably cut the HP in half (round down) and make that Stamina, and remove the stamina from the HP (so HP becomes HP/2 round up).

damage always goes against stamina, any lethal damage in excess of stamina is applied against HP. When HP and Stamina is all consumed, they fall unconscious/dying.

Likely, I'd have critical hits do half damage (round down) to HP and half damage (round up to stamina) or some similar variation, but that wouldn't be a requirement for the process to work right. Doing so would allow someone who has been badly injured but got all stamina back, if they took critical damage, might run out of HP. If you run out of HP, you could have remaining damage start running out of your stamina, and leave you conscious. However, it could be defined to cause some sort of condition (wounded, etc) on them that would not simply go away with time while their HP is still zero. That wouldn't be necessary, but if it added to the flavor desired, it would be a convenient option for such a mechanism to represent someone barely hanging on to their consciousness, as if by pure will or adrenaline.

Really, not that it is directly relevant, I'm realizing it would be pretty easy to implement the very same rules into original Pathfinder without much other impact.

As far as monsters not having separate stamina/hp. Really, since stamina represents capability to absorb damage within any particular single scene, and HP represents longer term capability to withstand damage, since monsters are almost always intended to only be relevant in a single scene, it really doesn't become that important to track stamina and hp separately since in a single scene, unless they are already injured in some manner at the start of the scene, it wouldn't probably matter at the end as they will often be vanquished, gone, or they defeated the PCs.

If you have monsters that are intended to fight, and then retreat, rest and be seen in a later scene, it could very will be worth tracking their HP and Stamina, so you would know how many HP/Stamina they could have at the start of the next scene after they have recuperated. But if they are single scene monsters, there isn't much need to track the difference, since its primary purpose it to reflect the ability to recover between scenes.

I'd like to see the HP system stay relatively simple in Pathfinder 2.0, but with nice scale-able options that can either come in the core book, or published over the supplements allowing the game to be easily scaled to better reflect different genre/settings going from the almost anime bouncing up and down, to more dark/gritty/deadly options where wounds can easily become very difficult to heal, and take quite a long time to recover, by adding a few optional rules to gate the types of damage and healing that is available/generated.

For instance, I quickly noticed how 5th edition had an optional rule that required that to use a healing surge in a rest, they had to have some form a healing/treatment occur, which the healing surge would supplement. It seemed like there were a couple different optional rules listed that you could choose to use one or both of them and move the scale of damage from a bit gamey (reminiscent to me of video game such as Gauntlet or Diablo) to more gritty (not really realistic since HP is really fundamentally an abstraction) where any significant damage can none the less feel far more deadly or concerning, even to a hero.

If you don't like tracking HP, and prefer looking at it this way, you can track HP and Effective MaxHP. Any damage taken below half your HP also reduces your Effective Max HP that much from their natural Max HP. In between scenes if you can rest, you get bumped back up to your Effective MaxHP. This simplified way of looking at it would all that would need to be tracked for monsters, for instance that might be revisited in a later scene after a rest.


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Loreguard wrote:
Honestly, although I know/understand why StarFinder kept the stamina and HP pool healing separate, but I don't know that I would bother stopping HP healing from spilling over into Stamina.

It's to break the wheel of in-combat healing. If magic cured Stamina, then PCs would expect the Mystic to heal them mid-combat, which is explicitly what the Stamina system of Starfinder was created to get rid of.

Combat healing is only for serious beatings, so the healers can do other stuff that contributes towards the end of the encounter, instead of just prolonging it.

It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.

Silver Crusade

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Claxon wrote:
Napping is a disingenuous way to describe it.

A bit yeah, but it's one of my favourite words and I had a chance to use it :3


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Dracomicron wrote:

...

It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.

For that to happen, we would have to have a system where PC combatants don't go from full to almost dead every other fight. PF2E is currently not that system.

Silver Crusade

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Dracomicron wrote:
It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.

Stamina doesn't alleviate that though.


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Rysky wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.
Stamina doesn't alleviate that though.

Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.

Silver Crusade

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Shain Edge wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.
Stamina doesn't alleviate that though.
Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.

So would you be more favorable to HP + Treat Wounds if it was a flat amount restored?

And I'm not seeing much of a difference between having 30 HP and taking 20 points of damage and healing it as opposed to having 15 HP1 and 15 HP2 and taking 20 points of damage and healing both pools, other than needless complexity.

Silver Crusade

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Not ignoring your big post Draco, it's just taking me a second to get to it.

Silver Crusade

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Dracomicron wrote:
Because NPCs and PCs are made with, and use, different rules. A monster's life is measured in rounds. A PC's life is measured in levels.
Not all of us limit interactions of NPCs to "stabby obstacle".
Quote:
You need slightly more complex rules for dealing with PC health than NPC health because PCs are the stars of the show.
No you should not.
Quote:
The "added complexity" of two, completely linear damage pools is honestly so minor that even my non-gaming best friend understood it immediately.
For you and them, but I have heard people having issues with it. For me it's not that it's hard persay, but that it's needless complexity.
Quote:
Poison and the Mystic's life link are the only things that ignore Stamina and go straight to hit points right now,
Precisely, right now. That will definitely change as more supplements come out.
Quote:
One of the old Star Wars RPGs had a Stamina/Health system, and the difference between crits and normal shots is that normal shots took out Stamina first, and crits did no extra damage but went straight to Health. I like the idea conceptually, but it's a little beyond Pathfinder/Starfinder's remit.
Hmmm, I like it.
Quote:
The Stamina system is fantastic. Last night my Starfinder Society character got beaten up by Space Cuttlefish and took all of my Stamina and about 8 hit points of damage while the rest of my party shot them to pieces. We happened to have a Mystic with us, and he used one Healing Channel and I was good to go after a 10 minute rest (while my undamaged party looted some crates). There was no interruption of the flow of the game while someone made several checks to fix me, the tank, up before we could move on.
You had someone roll and you took a rest, so there was an interruption, just not one that you minded.
Quote:
And I still had plenty of Resolve.
Did you only have the one fight?
Quote:
The fact that it is the same pool as is used for character abilities is EXACTLY THE SAME risk/reward process that a cleric goes through when considering how many healing resources to keep on hand and how many to expend on doing cool things in combat.
I don't have a constant up to date grasp on everything in the playtest but I thought the Cleric's channels were a completely separate source from their Spell/Focus pool?
Quote:
I've listened to some podcasts of high level play, and high level characters have enough Resolve that they aren't shy about blowing it on KOOL POWERZ... because, frankly, using your cool powers well makes you less likely to NEED to use your Resolve to Not Die.

Yes... at high level play. You can do lots of fun stuff at high level.


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Rysky wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:

Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.

So would you be more favorable to HP + Treat Wounds if it was a flat amount restored?

And I'm not seeing much of a difference between having 30 HP and taking 20 points of damage and healing it as opposed to having 15 HP1 and 15 HP2 and taking 20 points of damage and healing both pools, other than needless complexity.

I actually really prefer the stamina rules, and can not see any real complexity in adding them to pathfinder. I like that it shows the line between negligible wear and tear during combat, and where you are being worn down to no longer avoiding more serious injuries that need medical attention.

Silver Crusade

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Shain Edge wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:

Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.

So would you be more favorable to HP + Treat Wounds if it was a flat amount restored?

And I'm not seeing much of a difference between having 30 HP and taking 20 points of damage and healing it as opposed to having 15 HP1 and 15 HP2 and taking 20 points of damage and healing both pools, other than needless complexity.

I actually really prefer the stamina rules, and can not see any real complexity in adding them to pathfinder. I like that it shows the line between negligible wear and tear during combat, and where you are being worn down to no longer avoiding more serious injuries that need medical attention.

*nods*

And I dislike it since it doesn't accomplish that (to me anyway), you have two HP pools that are forced to flavor two different ways (minor vs major damage) but that tends to fall though.

"I cast disintegrate."
"You winded him."
"I kick him in the shin."
"You have grievously wounded him."


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Rysky wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Napping is a disingenuous way to describe it.
A bit yeah, but it's one of my favourite words and I had a chance to use it :3

I'll accept that


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Rysky wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:


I actually really prefer the stamina rules, and can not see any real complexity in adding them to pathfinder. I like that it shows the line between negligible wear and tear during combat, and where you are being worn down to no longer avoiding more serious injuries that need medical attention.

*nods*

And I dislike it since it doesn't accomplish that (to me anyway), you have two HP pools that are forced to flavor two different ways (minor vs major damage) but that tends to fall though.

"I cast disintegrate."
"You winded him."
"I kick him in the shin."
"You have grievously wounded him."

Ah. You work your narrative backwards from the way I do.

“I cast disintegrate” he avoids most of the effects then most mear mortals have ever been known to do

“I kick him” His fatigue catches up with him. He is slow in pulling his leg back, and you hear a pop from his ankle and a cry out.

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