The Shaman's Life Link Hex states:
"Life Link (Su): The shaman creates a bond between herself and another creature within 30 feet. Each round at the start of the shaman’s turn, if the bonded creature is wounded for 5 or more hit points below its maximum hit points, it heals 5 hit points and the shaman takes 5 points of damage. The shaman can have one bond active per shaman level. The bond continues until the bonded creature dies, the shaman dies, the distance between her and the bonded creature exceeds 100 feet, or the shaman ends it as an immediate action. If the shaman has multiple bonds active, she can end as many as she wants with the same immediate action."
Scar Hex States:
"The target may make a Will save to resist this hex. These scars do not interfere with the target’s senses or prevent it from using abilities, but may affect social interactions. The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. They persist through disguises and shapechanging.
The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range. The number of supernatural scars the witch can maintain at once is equal to her Intelligence bonus; once she reaches this limit, she must remove the scar from a current victim in order to mark another. Effects that remove curses can remove the scar."
My question here is if the Life Shaman Scars her allies, at what range
a) can the Shaman initiate a Life Link?
and
b) does the Life Link Break?
Also to be noted:
"Witch Hex: The shaman selects any one hex normally available through the witch’s hex class feature. She treats her shaman level as her witch level when determining the powers and abilities of the hex. She uses her Wisdom modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for the hex. She cannot select major hexes or grand hexes using this ability. The shaman cannot select a witch hex that has the same name as a shaman hex."
but this does not pertain too much to the situation as far as I am aware other than wis int swapping fro shamans using witch hexes.
Looking for RAW answers if possible.
Thank you all for your time and attention
Strictly by RAW, the Scar alters targeting but nothing else.
So you could establish life link just fine, but nothing is changing that you have to stay within 100.' I expect most GMs would allow it however.
Strictly by RAW, the Scar alters targeting but nothing else.
So you could establish life link just fine, but nothing is changing that you have to stay within 100.' I expect most GMs would allow it however.
Not too sure about that. It says "use", not "start", "target" or anything else to that regard.
For Example, if the Scar hex could be applied to the Life Mystery Oracle's Life Link Revelation, what would the range be?
"Life Link (Su): As a standard action, you may create a bond between yourself and another creature. Each round at the start of your turn, if the bonded creature is wounded for 5 or more hit points below its maximum hit points, it heals 5 hit points and you take 5 hit points of damage. You may have one bond active per oracle level. This bond continues until the bonded creature dies, you die, the distance between you and the other creature exceeds medium range, or you end it as an immediate action (if you have multiple bonds active, you may end as many as you want as part of the same immediate action)."
I agree with Dave.
I'm not seeing anything in Scar that changes how the hex works and the hex ends at a certain range. You could still use it at whatever range, it would just end immediately.
Oracle Life Link would make it more clear. There's no range placed on how far you can activate Oracle Life Link on a target, only on the distance at which it ends. In the case of being able to use scar and Oracle Life Link, Oracle Life Link would be unaltered.
That's just my interpretation. As a DM I'd be more flexible provided you didn't just try to stay at home while linked to the rest of the party.
I agree with Dave.
I'm not seeing anything in Scar that changes how the hex works and the hex ends at a certain range. You could still use it at whatever range, it would just end immediately.
Oracle Life Link would make it more clear. There's no range placed on how far you can activate Oracle Life Link on a target, only on the distance at which it ends. In the case of being able to use scar and Oracle Life Link, Oracle Life Link would be unaltered.
That's just my interpretation. As a DM I'd be more flexible provided you didn't just try to stay at home while linked to the rest of the party.
The bond created by Life Link is not a separate thing that the hex establishes, the bond it's self is described by the Life Link hex. Specific Trumps General. In this case because Scar is modifying Life Link, Life Link is General while Scar is specific. Scar specifically states "can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile". I really do not see why that would not apply to all aspects of the hex it is modifying
Shaman: I want to use life link on the Fighter.
GM: The fighter is 50 feet away, you can't.
Shaman: I have already used my Scar hex on the fighter.
GM: Ok, that works then.
Subsequent rounds: Life link does what it does. No one is doing anything to 'use' it.
Fighter moves 105' from Shaman. Life link ends.
Lets imagine a hex that create a 100' aura on a target that gave allies of the target DR/5 while in its area and you could target any creature (i.e. use the hex on) with 30'. Scar would let you use the hex on someone a mile away, but it certainly wouldn't change the aura radius to a mile.
Using a hex on someone is another way of saying targeting someone.
I'd say the RAW here is more than vague enough to go either way. It's the kind of thing you're just going to have to run by each individual DM.
So, the real question may be if you "should" allow them to stack perfectly. The only concern I can think of would be someone setting their life shaman cohort outside of a dungeon to safely slow heal the party.
The bond created by Life Link is not a separate thing that the hex establishes, the bond it's self is described by the Life Link hex. Specific Trumps General. In this case because Scar is modifying Life Link, Life Link is General while Scar is specific. Scar specifically states "can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile". I really do not see why that would not apply to all aspects of the hex it is modifyingI agree with Dave.
I'm not seeing anything in Scar that changes how the hex works and the hex ends at a certain range. You could still use it at whatever range, it would just end immediately.
Oracle Life Link would make it more clear. There's no range placed on how far you can activate Oracle Life Link on a target, only on the distance at which it ends. In the case of being able to use scar and Oracle Life Link, Oracle Life Link would be unaltered.
That's just my interpretation. As a DM I'd be more flexible provided you didn't just try to stay at home while linked to the rest of the party.
It's absolutely two separate things. The hex CREATES a bond, which normally requires being within 30' of the target. The bond itself has conditions which end it, and none of those are modified by the Scar. This isn't a case of specific trumps general, because the two "rules" being compared aren't at odds. It's like using the slumber hex on someone immediately after they are hit by Acid Arrow. It WORKS, but it's going to end almost instantaneously, because they'll take damage on their next turn. Doesn't stop you from using the hex, but it probably will prevent getting any benefit from it. Even better example: using the Silent Spell metamagic to cast Shout in an area of Silence. Just because the metamagic lets you get around the first restriction (can't cast spells with verbal components, which shout has, but the specific from metamagic trumps the general) doesn't mean you automatically bypass the OTHER restriction (shout cannot penetrate areas of silence). Simply gaining the ability to use the spell doesn't guarantee it will be capable of having ANY effect. Saying that the Scar modifies ALL aspects of a hex would be silly. A perfectly balanced hex could be to create difficult terrain in a 5' radius around your target. Trying to argue that Scar would make it a 1 mile radius would be absurd. Or a hex that can push an enemy 30' away from you. Would you suggest you can now shove it 1 mile? USING a hex and the hex's actual effects are two completely different beasts, and there are plenty of examples where something can be "used" but have no effect because of a different restriction.
The witch can user her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile
Ignoring the typo, note that it doesn't merely say the witch can target the hex at a range of 1 mile, but that the witch can use her hexes at that range. This would imply that all aspects of the hex should be effective at that range.
The bond created by Life Link is not a separate thing that the hex establishes, the bond it's self is described by the Life Link hex. Specific Trumps General. In this case because Scar is modifying Life Link, Life Link is General while Scar is specific. Scar specifically states "can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile". I really do not see why that would not apply to all aspects of the hex it is modifyingI agree with Dave.
I'm not seeing anything in Scar that changes how the hex works and the hex ends at a certain range. You could still use it at whatever range, it would just end immediately.
Oracle Life Link would make it more clear. There's no range placed on how far you can activate Oracle Life Link on a target, only on the distance at which it ends. In the case of being able to use scar and Oracle Life Link, Oracle Life Link would be unaltered.
That's just my interpretation. As a DM I'd be more flexible provided you didn't just try to stay at home while linked to the rest of the party.
It looks like our point of disagreement is the idea that both the life link hex and the bond created by life link, are the same thing. By my reading, life link creates the bond, and the bond has its own rules regarding how it works. Your reading is that life link is the bond, correct?
It's probably not worth continuing the argument from there. I don't see any way to resolve it.
I would consider the bond to be part of Life Link. It feels weird to treat it as if it were something separate, like a summoned monster.
I would consider the bond to be part of Life Link. It feels weird to treat it as if it were something separate, like a summoned monster.
Or like a spell and a spell effect?
The spell is Cure Light Wounds, the Spell effect is Recovery of X hit points.
The spell is Fireball, the effect is a 20' radius burst that deals X fire damage with reflex save for half.
The hex is Life Link, the effect is create a bond that damages you and heals the target as long as you certain conditions are met, including remaining within 100.'
Out of curiosity, to those who think the 100' isn't a requirement, do you think the 'if the bonded creature is wounded for 5 or more hit points' still applies? After all, if the scar lets you 'use' it without any other restriction than being within a mile superseding all restrictions in the ability itself wouldn't it heal that bonded creature and damage you every round as long as you remain within one mile? Also, can you still end it when you want, or has that gone away too?
The point is that the effect would be changed too, as it is part of the hex. "The witch can user her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile" This implies that the hex should actually be useful at that range.
Trying to add some evil genie twist to the wording would go against the intent of the scar hex in my opinion. Clearly, it's not meant to work just enough to not work.
If the only use of scar hex was with life link, I'd say you had a point. It works perfectly fine with hexes that don't have distance terminating effects on them.
I wouldn't expect Aura of Purity, Coven, or Congeal to extend for 1 mile, nor would I expect the Witch's Hut to be able to keep watch in a 1 mile radius. Would you have Evil Eye lose the "that she can see" restriction with Scar? What about prehensile hair's reach?
Your interpretation does sew up the problem with using temporary access to hexes just long enough to get life link bonds up. I'm just not sure extending the range of a hex to the range of the effect it creates makes much sense.
It seems hella fun though.
I would consider the bond to be part of Life Link. It feels weird to treat it as if it were something separate, like a summoned monster.Or like a spell and a spell effect?
The spell is Cure Light Wounds, the Spell effect is Recovery of X hit points.
The spell is Fireball, the effect is a 20' radius burst that deals X fire damage with reflex save for half.
The hex is Life Link, the effect is create a bond that damages you and heals the target as long as you certain conditions are met, including remaining within 100.'
Out of curiosity, to those who think the 100' isn't a requirement, do you think the 'if the bonded creature is wounded for 5 or more hit points' still applies? After all, if the scar lets you 'use' it without any other restriction than being within a mile superseding all restrictions in the ability itself wouldn't it heal that bonded creature and damage you every round as long as you remain within one mile? Also, can you still end it when you want, or has that gone away too?
Let's not get into straw man fallacies here.
the target having 5 or more damage is the trigger for the Life Link Bond. No trigger, no effect....but to be clear here, it is "the life link bond". this bond is only defined by the hex Life Link. If the bond added some other status effect that was already clearly defined else where, i would absolutely, whole-heartedly agree with you, but it isn't, it is only defined under the Life Link hex because it is a part of the Life Link hex.
Lets look at this a different way then.
The shield other spell creates a bond that transmits damage that the subject would take to the caster. It has a range of close and also a proviso "If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends."
Obviously that last proviso is quite different from Life Link, the range for casting and the range for maintaining are explicitly identical, rather than quite different.
Imagine though that shield other had a maintenance clause that was identical to life link "If you and the subject of the spell move more than 100' from each other, the spell ends."
What would be the outcome if you cast an enlarged shield other (v2)? You now have a medium range, which could quite easily exceed 100' as an initial targeting range. Would our alternate shield other spell have it's 100 maintenance rule changed?
I believe that the if lifelink had a maintenance clause that way like shield other's maintenance clause, i.e. being linked to range, the scar hex would certainly allow it to be maintained to the mile range.
(Also, once again, as a GM I'd allow it, because I don't think it is really broken and I do think it thematically fits that scar should let it work. What I'd allow and what the rules really say aren't always the same though.)
But scar hex doesn’t actually mention range. Range is its own well defined thing. If an ability said you could “use” shield other at a 1 mile radius, then we’d still be having the same discussion.
"witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile"
Range is right there, I don't see how you could miss it.
Perhaps you are missing that 'use a hex' is not a general term, but rather a specific one, analogous to 'cast as spell.' It isn't use as in 'get some benefit from' it is 'activate to create the effect'.
An example from the rules: "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
"witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile"
Range is right there, I don't see how you could miss it.
I mispoke. I was talking about how it doesn't actually say the range is changed, but that it can be "used" on the target at that range.
Perhaps you are missing that 'use a hex' is not a general term, but rather a specific one, analogous to 'cast as spell.' It isn't use as in 'get some benefit from' it is 'activate to create the effect'.
I don't feel like that's actually provable, for the piece of text we are discussing. But I'll concede that it has been used that way before, so it is very possible that's what's happening here.
Perhaps you are missing that 'use a hex' is not a general term, but rather a specific one, analogous to 'cast as spell.' It isn't use as in 'get some benefit from' it is 'activate to create the effect'.
An example from the rules: "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
I still do not see how this means that it would only apply to the first range listed in the hex instead of all aspects of range to the hex.
It's to do with the word "use" being used to mean "cast" in some rules.
If we were to rewrite the hex like this, "The witch can cast her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile", then I don't think we'd have much doubt that the rest of the hex would not be affected. And it is very possible the original author had that intent.
But unfortunately, "use" is a rather broad word. And if we take "use" to have its more common full meaning, then it would apply to the entire hex and not just the "casting" of the hex.
It's to do with the word "use" being used to mean "cast" in some rules.
If we were to rewrite the hex like this, "The witch can cast her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile", then I don't think we'd have much doubt that the rest of the hex would not be affected. And it is very possible the original author had that intent.
But unfortunately, "use" is a rather broad word. And if we take "use" to have its more common full meaning, then it would apply to the entire hex and not just the "casting" of the hex.
Even if it is used to mean "Cast" I do not see why it would not apply to the entire hex. For example, if we take something like Shield Other
"CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a pair of platinum rings worth 50 gp worn by both you and the target)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
DESCRIPTION
This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.
If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends."
Now if you had an ability that stated "you can cast spells on the target at a range of up to 1 mile" Even thought it does not specifically say that the range of the spell is altered, only that you can cast it at that range, one would think that it would still apply to all aspects of the spell.
Shield Other's 'maintain range' is specifically the spell's range.
Life Link's 'maintain range' (100') is specifically different from the hex's range (30').
In the former case, altering the range effects the 'maintain range.' In the later case it does not.