How do you keep your attack bonus up to speed at high levels?


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've made numerous high level characters, and if there's a big trend I'm beginning to notice it's that, as characters get to higher levels, it becomes harder and harder for envoys, drone mechanics, mystics, operatives, and technomancers to keep up. The discrepancy isn't enough to make such characters useless when attacking with weapons, but it's definitely discouraging enough to warrant the question "why even bother doing it?"

For those times when your skills, buffs, and spells aren't what's needed, or aren't available, what kinds of things do you do to keep your attack bonuses from falling too far behind the curve with your characters?

It sure seems like in my case, even with ability score pumping, the attack bonus only ends up a couple of points higher than their level, which means they're going to be missing their targets most of the time.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some of my characters' breakdowns are as follows:

operative 3 with 16 Dex; +5 to vs EAC 14
technomancer 4 with 14 Dex; +5 to hit vs 16 EAC
envoy 5 with 11 Dex; +3 to hit vs 17 EAC
operative 5 with 20 Dex; +8 to hit vs 17 EAC
mystic 4/soldier 2 with 14 Dex; +7 to hit vs 18 EAC
operative 6 with 18 Dex; +8 to hit vs 18 EAC
mechanic 7 with 18 Dex; +9 to hit vs 19 EAC
operative 6/soldier 1 with 18 Dex; +9 to hit vs 19 EAC
mystic 9 with 12 Dex; +6 to hit vs 22 EAC
mystic 10 with 16 Dex and WF; +11 to hit vs 23 EAC
operative 10 with 24 Dex; +14 to hit vs 23 EAC
envoy 12 with 20 Dex; +14 to hit vs 26 EAC
mystic 13 with 16 Dex; +12 to hit vs 27 EAC
envoy 14 with 18 Dex; +14 to hit vs 28 EAC
operative 15 with 26 Dex; +18 to hit vs 29 EAC
mystic 16 with 22 Dex; +18 to hit vs 30 AC
mystic 17 with 20 Dex; +17 to hit vs 31 EAC
envoy 19 with 26 Dex and WF; +24 to hit vs 33 EAC
operative 20 with 22 Dex; +21 to hit vs 35 EAC

There's a pretty clear trend of "if you ever want to hit anything more than half the time don't every play anything other than a soldier or solarian." God forbid I ever try to shoot at a creature's KAC or make use of Deadly Aim!


Well, Weapon focus can give you a +2; Operatives should be automatically making their opponents flat footed for an effective +2, Exocortex Mechanics can Target to have effective full BAB, And Envoys can Improved Get em to give themselves and other allies +2.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The only big difference between them is 3/4 BAB verse full. So lvl 1-4 the 3/4 are going to be 1 attack behind. That increases to 2 attack behind once you hit 5.

Since weapon focus increases to +2 at level 9 for 3/4 BAB classes, that means for the majority of the game (lvl 5-12). So you should be hitting about 10% less often than the full BAB classes for most of the game. before any abilities are taken into account.

Just glancing at the list it seems you need to add weapon focus to most of them. For example, your operative 10 with 24 dex would go up +16 hit vs 23 EAC, so a successful trick attack (flatfooted bonus so -2 AC) only needs to roll a 5 or better so you have an 80% chance to hit. The same holds true for your operative 15. He would have a 70% chance to hit.

The same holds true of Envoys since they can give flatfooted on their attacks as well as a +2 attack. Both operatives and Envoys also enjoy the benefit of increasing the whole party's chance to hit by 10% (20% for envoy) That's a lot of damage that looks like it's the soldier/solarian's but is really because of you.

Exo mechanics can bring their BAB up to soldier and solarian's level so they shouldn't have any problem. Drone doesn't have anyway to make up 10% like the other classes, but they are essentially full attacking every round with at least 2 attacks every round. If you look at the overall accuracy of both the attacks compared to a full attack of a soldier, its probably similar.

Technomancers/Mystics are going to struggle the most, but their primary role isn't really the pew pew. Even looking at most of your mystic spreads its obvious that dex is a secondary concern. If they're shooting, it might be more beneficial for them to aim at the much easier AC for harrying/covering fire.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As to operatives, I've found that at low levels you can't make an enemy flat-footed unless you hit them with a trick attack first. Though it's practically automatic at higher levels nailing the trick attack skill check at low levels can be pretty hard to do. Playing up to level 5, my own operative only got to do a trick attack 1/3 of the time AT BEST. The rest of the time he was either missing the attack roll or not landing the skill check.

I'm also aware of what the envoy can do for my attack bonuses, but I'm more interested in advice for things I can do for myself. Not every party is going to have an envoy, and not every envoy is going to take Get Em.


I disagree that BAB is the only big difference, the non-operatives also have a key stat that doesn’t aid to hit.

I agree that Mystics and Technomancers should be casting spells enough that their weapons issues are secondary once they become a problem. Mystics can use 1st level slots on Wisp Ally if they want to enhance their shooting, Technos have that weapon boosting magic hack and Microbot Assault.


For envoys, bailing on the class after 12 and going soldier as the class doesn't have any class features that scale past there


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Microbot assault can't really be used to improve your own chance to hit. You have to spend your standard actions to keep the spell going.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
I disagree that BAB is the only big difference, the non-operatives also have a key stat that doesn’t aid to hit.

Yes that's definitely part of it. (And I don't think anyone ever said it wasn't, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.)

Xenocrat wrote:
I agree that Mystics and Technomancers should be casting spells enough that their weapons issues are secondary once they become a problem.

I've always been of the mind that they should be conserving their spells for utilities, or as trump cards for the big nasties, and using their weapons the rest of the time. Being nigh useless half the time (either because you exhausted your spells early on or because you're conserving your spells and can't hit anything) is not really fun for anyone.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:

I disagree that BAB is the only big difference, the non-operatives also have a key stat that doesn’t aid to hit.

Neither does solarian.

If you want to be able to hit things your going to have to put points in DeX or strength. Starting with 16 DeX means you'll be -1 from 1 to 5 and 10 to 15. Which means you'll be somewhere between 15 to 20 % less likely to hit.

The three "attacking" 3/4 classes have fairly easy ways to close that gap by at least 10%. And even mystic has wisp.


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It's been a couple of months since i've run starfinder so i don't remember everything, but i know characters should max their accuracy stats first and foremost, especially 3/4 BBa classes, as AC seems scaled after high BBa. The rest of a character stats points should go into it's secondary stats, which is generally it's non-combat role stats, like CHA for Envoy, as skills DC gets rather high as well. At lvl 20, i wouldn't got under 26 Dex or Strenght, maybe 24 for caster, as they should probably max out their casting stats first, i'm not sure.

As for raising accuracy, other than maxing out dex, Then there's other stuff people mentionned, like the envoy Get'Em bonus to accuracy, the operative trick attack to make a target flat-footed, weapon focus, etc.

Oh and like you mentionned, forget targeting KAC with non full BBA character, it's just not worth it, get some good energy weapon and stick to that.

There's a last alternative if you don't want to max out dex and still do some damage, use blast weapons, ennemies will most likely succeed their reflex saves, but at least you'll hit for half damage, so there's that.

But to be honest, i think they went a bit extreme in overtuning target DCs or ACs as character that don't min/max everything just can't keep up. 3/4 BBA classes as hard time keeping up hiting ACs, and Full BBa classes as hard time keeping up with appropriate CR skill DCs.


Ravingdork wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I disagree that BAB is the only big difference, the non-operatives also have a key stat that doesn’t aid to hit.
Yes that's definitely part of it. (And I don't think anyone ever said it wasn't, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.)

This.

PawnJJ wrote:

The only big difference between them is 3/4 BAB verse full.

The attribute difference is going to be pretty comparable to the BAB deficit for most of these builds. Potentially more at lower levels, a bit less at higher levels.

Ravingdork wrote:


Xenocrat wrote:
I agree that Mystics and Technomancers should be casting spells enough that their weapons issues are secondary once they become a problem.
I've always been of the mind that they should be conserving their spells for utilities, or as trump cards for the big nasties, and using their weapons the rest of the time. Being nigh useless half the time (either because you exhausted your spells early on or because you're conserving your spells and can't hit anything) is not really fun for anyone.

It's fine to decide that your primary class feature isn't going to be used for combat, but if that's the case you need to invest a whole lot of build resources in alternate combat means. Make Dex your highest attribute (you don't need your DCs if you're not attacking with spells), get Weapon Focus, invest in an Accurate weapon fusion, etc.

Mystics can also have Intimidate and sometimes a debuffing connection power as a combat option that doesn't cost too many resources and can be used with some reliability. Envoys can Intimidate, throw grenades, use their standard action for an improvisation, etc.


Envoys have either get em or clever attack for +2 (possibly both eventually)

weapon focus increases once your BAB is three behind the soldier, keeping you within 1 until 13th, at which point bail on the envoy


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've mentioned Weapon Focus in my initial post. It does help some, but even with it, it seems I have difficulty breaking the 40-50% accuracy mark. The most accurate characters (those that don't skimp on their attack ability score and have Weapon Focus) only seem to get up to about 55% or so.

Xenocrat wrote:
...invest in an Accurate weapon fusion...

Yes! That's one option that I hadn't thought of yet. I may well do that with future characters.

So at the moment we can potentially have a 20th-level character, with BAB 15, max stat mod of +9 (which likely cripples your primary functions), Weapon Focus +2, and Accurate fusion +1 which eats your move action every turn.

So a super-optimized accurate character (that's not an exo-mechanic, soldier, or solarian) can only have about +27 to hit vs. EAC 35. 60% accuracy at best without outside help.

That's a much better number I think, but it still seems to have too high a cost associated with it.


Operatives and Envoys have class abilities to add an extra +2 to hit, Technomancers can use Mental Mark and an opening spell like Slow or Mental Block on a group to choose followup targets that have been debuffed, Mindbreaker Mystics can use Sow Thought to impose a -2, and there may be other class ability accuracy boosters or enemy AC nerfers I'm forgetting.

But realistically those are closing the gap on your dexterity deficit from a +9, not pushing you further ahead.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Technomancers can use Mental Mark and an opening spell like Slow or Mental Block on a group to choose followup targets that have been debuffed, Mindbreaker Mystics can use Sow Thought to impose a -2, and there may be other class ability accuracy boosters or enemy AC nerfers I'm forgetting.

I feel something Magyar5 said in another thread is pertinent here.

Magyar5 wrote:

...I started looking at the arrays in the back of the alien archive I noticed a disturbing trend. Saving throws climb at a much higher rate than Saving throw DCs. Saving throw DC`s are relatively flat in this game. They move upwards at very defined points. However saving throws for NPCs climb quite high as the game progresses.

For example. When a character first is able to use lvl 6 spells at lol 16 the normal DC of a lvl 6 spell is going to be 22 - 24. You can optimize to bump this however, you can't get it much higher. I think the theoretical max is 27 or 28.

At lvl 16, enemies already have a +14 or +18 saving throw modifier. As you progress, your DC won't change but the enemy saving throws will. This makes landing a spell vs a strong save almost impossible and vs a weak save a 50/50 proposition if you optimized. If you haven't, then it gets even worse.

Anyways, the point is that the numbers seem to tell an underlying theme on the design of the rules and I'm seeing a pattern in them. Still deciphering and learning, but I will get there and see what people think when I finely figure them out.

My advice to my Mystic is to choose spells that offer no saving throw or an effect you desire should they the spell fail. That way your spells have a good chance of being helpful even if the enemies save.

Most debuffs are actually less likely to land than shooting them is. :(


Ravingdork wrote:
I've mentioned Weapon Focus in my initial post. It does help some, but even with it, it seems I have difficulty breaking the 40-50% accuracy mark. The most accurate characters (those that don't skimp on their attack ability score and have Weapon Focus) only seem to get up to about 55% or so.

Damn, i should have read better, would have saved me the trouble of analysing everything lol, but anyway. I was originally going to post a comment under every character, but it boils down to : Invest more in Dexterity, add weapon focus.

Ravingdork wrote:
So at the moment we can potentially have a 20th-level character, with BAB 15, max stat mod of +9 (which likely cripples your primary functions), Weapon Focus +2, and Accurate fusion +1 which eats your move action every turn.

Thanks to Androids, Operatives and Technomancer can get a +9 stats mod without hurting too much. Their stats should look like STR: 13, Dex: 28, CON: 20 INT: 24 Wis: 18 Cha: 8. That's not too bad.

I don't recall if there's any +2 dex +2 Wis races, but if yes, than Mystic can manage something similar to Androids operatives and Technomancer.

Envoys do need to get high charisma, so i guess they can stop around 26 Dex, otherwise their skill points are probably gonna suffer too much.

Ravingdork wrote:
So a super-optimized accurate character (that's not an exo-mechanic, soldier, or solarian) can only have about +27 to hit vs. EAC 35. 60% accuracy at best without outside help.

Yup that's the sad part, if you want to keep up in starfinder you can't get too creative with your build, you gotta optimize everything.

Edit: I just recalled, there's a feat, coordinated shot or something like that, it gives +1 to range attack to your allies on ennemy you threaten.


Ravingdork wrote:


Most debuffs are actually less likely to land than shooting them is. :(

A Technomancer gets -1 to saves (against his own spells only) the next round even if his mental mark spell doesn't land. It's a -2 to everything (for everyone) if it does, and if you're casting a multitarget spell you probably have at least one target that failed and is extra vulnerable next round.

Sow Doubt for the Mindbreaker Mystic always succeeds for one round, even if they make the save. You can at least set them up for an ally.

Intimidate is one of the few skills you can super optimize, as it has multiple augmentations that provide bonuses to it. If you're an Augmented archetype, you can put both a Voice Amplifier (cybertech) and a Vampire Voice (necrograft) in at the same time, granting combined bonuses of +3 to +7 (depending on the item level of the Vampire Voice, but both of these are available at level 1), and this stacks with an insight bonus from class (Mystic, Operative, Envoy) or Skill Focus. You can also use the Ferocity Blazon to double the duration. Mindbreaker Mystics can lead with an Intimidate, then a Sow Thought, then a finisher spell in the third round and have a decent chance of a -4 to saves, plus the other bonuses that accrue to your allies along the way.


An alternative to missing is to invest in Heavy Weapons and use explode weapons for guaranteed AOE damage. They'll make their saves for half damage pretty often, but at least you're consistently contributing, this is especially good if your move action is being used for something productive (Envoy). The Technomancer can use his move action to recharge his weapon battery or enhance his weapon AOE damage with low level spell slots.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interesting points Xenocrat.

Xenocrat wrote:
An alternative to missing is to invest in Heavy Weapons and use explode weapons for guaranteed AOE damage. They'll make their saves for half damage pretty often, but at least you're consistently contributing, this is especially good if your move action is being used for something productive (Envoy). The Technomancer can use his move action to recharge his weapon battery or enhance his weapon AOE damage with low level spell slots.

Interesting notion, but somewhat high investment. You need higher strength (or costly weapon accessories), the Longarm Proficiency feat, the Versatile Specialization feat and even then you're still going to be subpar. Doing half the damage all the time isn't any better than missing half the time, except now you've invested for that! :|


Yeah, you'd need to be consistently catching 2+ creatures in the AOE (doable on the shock caster and the new sonic one in Armory, not so much on the plasma option).


If your non-combatant is having a hard time hitting enemies in combat, do Covering/Harrying Fire. Fixed target of 15, which you should trivially hit at the relevant levels, and the buff/debuff will never not be helpful.


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Algarik wrote:


I don't recall if there's any +2 dex +2 Wis races, but if yes, than Mystic can manage something similar to Androids operatives and Technomancer.

I found these:

1. Ghibrani (AP 5) (Membrane subspecies)
2. Neskintis (AP &)
3. Kalo (AA)


A mystic should throw haste on the party (haste circuits don't work on round 1) then run to a place with a clear view and full attack.


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I think there is a realignment of perception in star finder as to what a good to hit chance should be. Based on the arrays in AA, it looks like if your fighting a CR equivalent enemy, your odds should be in the 50/50 range for any action. This is actually very similar to the old Wizards Saga SW game.

I think something to bear in mind is that IMO you should often be facing enemies at a CR -2 for most non-boss fights. If you're using the arrays as a guidepost, then based on the stats you have outlined above you should be rocking 60%+ odds in most combats. The harder fights may mean you need teamwork and the full BAB classes get their shine.

One thing I'm noticing in your various spreads: Primary attack stats should always be at least a 14 at level 1 and should be at least 24 by level 20. And weapon focus should always be selected for the 3/4 classes. At level 20 these two guidelines should land you a minimum 24 to hit, and if you are facing off against a CR 18 creature you should have 60%+ chance against most EAC.

Again, just my opinion, but i think the funamental flaw in a lot of the discussions I see is that equal CR equivalent comparisons are the only ones worth looking at. Using AP7 one of the first combats encountered at level 1 is against 3 CR 1/2 cadets. Your operative with 16 dex would be hitting their EAC of 11 about 60% of the time. The next encounter is 3 CR 1/3 creatures, easily hitable. I think CR equivalent fights or harder really are boss/mini-boss fights and should not be the standard for an average fight.


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I can understand your frustration that a character or class underperforms on an overall damage level, but something I'm not seeing referenced on this thread is that Starfinder isn't balanced entirely around combat.

Yes, mystics are going to hit less often when using weapons as compared to a full BAB character, but, in addition to having large burst damage potential when casting spells, they have a ton of campaign-altering spell options that can give the party a HUGE leg up in the right situation (Hologram Memory, Restoration, Tongues, etc).

Operatives may not be able to hit as often as a soldietr, but hitting with trick attack becomes all but automatic after lvl 7, giving everyone +2 (including a full BAB soldier who may really need it to hit with those full attacks). They also have an abundance of skill points and bonuses that allows them to be incredibly useful in both combat and non-combat skill checks (you can shoot aliens all day long, but this campaign isn't going any further unless someone can hack this computer and open the door.)

Envoys certainly suffer in combat, but many min/maxed soldiers in a well-rounded campaign may find themselves unable to offer a lot of support when it comes to social situations or science checks.

My point is that, yes, some classes are slightly behind on pure damage at certain levels, but they offer an awful lot of other benefits that a soldier getting 4 skill points a level can't touch.

Dataphiles

^ This

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