Twitch 9-21: Preview of Rules Update 1.3


General Discussion

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theservantsllcleanitup wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Avalon Reln wrote:
graystone wrote:

"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

*sigh* I'll get the torches and pitchforks.
Have fun storming the castle!
Think it'll work?

It would take a miracle.


theservantsllcleanitup wrote:


Think it'll work?

Hey, even if it doesn't, it's good plunder and a nice castle for us to wait through the long winter nights!


theservantsllcleanitup wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Avalon Reln wrote:
graystone wrote:

"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

*sigh* I'll get the torches and pitchforks.
Have fun storming the castle!
Think it'll work?

It'll take three critical successes in a row.


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Zi Mishkal wrote:


It'll take three critical successes in a row.

I did roll three natural 20s in a row last session.

One of my players died and now they hate me even more for my notorious good luck when rolling dices!

Dataphiles

IT WORKED ITS UP


ITS UP


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See? :D


Where can I find it? Anybody have a link or set of instructions?


Check the blog. :)


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Linkified!


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While I appreciate removing the slowed condition from the dying rules, I cannot help but think that the wounded condition will make it even easier for a gang of determined enemies to beat down on a massively-AC-debuffed, dying PC in order to finish them off once and for all. That is a tactic I have been using in my playtest games to force TPKs, and the new wounded condition will make it even easier.

According to the playtest rulebook, "only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them," but then, how are PCs supposed to survive those vicious creatures exploiting the wounded condition?

I cannot help but think that every sorcerer is going to multiclass into paladin, completely ignore the code of conduct due to the explicit lack of penalty for doing so, and then enjoy their medium armor. This seems like a ridiculous state of affairs for sorcerers.


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Oh! It actually WORKED right off the bat: just one click and they downloaded!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Colette Brunel wrote:
While I appreciate removing the slowed condition from the dying rules, I cannot help but think that the wounded condition will make it even easier for a gang of determined enemies to beat down on a massively-AC-debuffed, dying PC in order to finish them off once and for all. That is a tactic I have been using in my playtest games to force TPKs, and the new wounded condition will make it even easier.

And that tactic is explicitly discouraged in the Core Rulebook (p. 328)

"Adversaries typically stop attacking someone who’s knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them."

It's no wonder all your games are TPKs if you're going all out to kill PCs at every opportunity.


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Colette Brunel wrote:
While I appreciate removing the slowed condition from the dying rules, I cannot help but think that the wounded condition will make it even easier for a gang of determined enemies to beat down on a massively-AC-debuffed, dying PC in order to finish them off once and for all. That is a tactic I have been using in my playtest games to force TPKs, and the new wounded condition will make it even easier.

You've literally been "forcing" TPKs and then wonder why why you have a 100% TPK rate??

Liberty's Edge

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Arakhor wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
While I appreciate removing the slowed condition from the dying rules, I cannot help but think that the wounded condition will make it even easier for a gang of determined enemies to beat down on a massively-AC-debuffed, dying PC in order to finish them off once and for all. That is a tactic I have been using in my playtest games to force TPKs, and the new wounded condition will make it even easier.
You've literally been "forcing" TPKs and then wonder why why you have a 100% TPK rate??

*Popcorn**


Gorbacz wrote:
"Adversaries typically stop attacking someone who’s knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them."

I have been well-aware of that passage from the start. I generally interpret creatures as vicious enough to indeed focus on helpless foes. The rulebook gives the leeway to do this, so I do this.

Silver Crusade

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Colette Brunel wrote:
While I appreciate removing the slowed condition from the dying rules, I cannot help but think that the wounded condition will make it even easier for a gang of determined enemies to beat down on a massively-AC-debuffed, dying PC in order to finish them off once and for all. That is a tactic I have been using in my playtest games to force TPKs, and the new wounded condition will make it even easier.
Colette Brunel wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
"Adversaries typically stop attacking someone who’s knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them."
I have been well-aware of that passage from the start. I generally interpret creatures as vicious enough to indeed focus on helpless foes. The rulebook gives the leeway to do this, so I do this.

Gotta say, really not regretting my choice to unfollow your playtest threads.

Liberty's Edge

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Gorbacz wrote:


And that tactic is explicitly discouraged in the Core Rulebook (p. 328)

"Adversaries typically stop attacking someone who’s knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them."

It's no wonder all your games are TPKs if you're going all out to kill PCs at every opportunity.

This is a good point. I would suggest going further and removing the nebulous "most vicious creatures" clause to fully stamp this tactic out of RAW. Any non-mindless creature acting in this manner breaks verisimilitude; it only serves to inconvenience PCs with party member death over the more sound tactic of dealing with active threats.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It’s not really that nebulous.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
It’s not really that nebulous.

How so? What are the most vicious creatures? What are examples of vicious creatures who are not most vicious? If someone did this to me outside of a playtest I would raise the BS flag. This is a playtest.


Gorbacz wrote:
I generally interpret creatures as vicious enough to indeed focus on helpless foes
Rysky wrote:
It’s not really that nebulous.

Apparently it is

Silver Crusade

Does anyone know if the Recovery DCs have changed with the 1.3 update?


Simon Dragonar wrote:
This is a good point. I would suggest going further and removing the nebulous "most vicious creatures" clause to fully stamp this tactic out of RAW. Any non-mindless creature acting in this manner breaks verisimilitude; it only serves to inconvenience PCs with party member death over the more sound tactic of dealing with active threats.

Indeed, I always considered "monster or opponent decides to attack an unconscious or otherwise wholly nonthreatening opponent, when there are still threats who are up and fighting" to be really unnatural behavior, and it's certainly not a thing I would do without a really good reason for the baddie to do this.

Most obvious thing for any creature to do in a combat situation is "make all the people who are trying to hurt me stop doing that" and then we can figure things out from there. I'm A-OK with the rulebook mandating this behavior for all antagonists, possibly excepting particularly loathsome chief villains.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Simon Dragonar wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It’s not really that nebulous.
How so? What are the most vicious creatures? What are examples of vicious creatures who are not most vicious? If someone did this to me outside of a playtest I would raise the BS flag. This is a playtest.

Well, if you want to play a game where every rules element is spelled out so explicitly that there's no need for interpretation or a leeway for some people to interpret in way A and for others the way B, video games and board games are ----> that way.


PCScipio wrote:
Does anyone know if the Recovery DCs have changed with the 1.3 update?

Yes, because the DC's by level table has changed. Recovery DCs are the Hard DC with Level = Monster's CR.

Liberty's Edge

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Gorbacz wrote:


Well, if you want to play a game where every rules element is spelled out so explicitly that there's no need for interpretation or a leeway for some people to interpret in way A and for others the way B, video games and board games are ----> that way.

This is an example of where breakdown in communication happens. How does it serve the game well for this kind of language to be unclear? What are you arguing for, exactly? The rules language staying this way is EXACTLY where Collette's exaggerated and IMO ludicrous rulings slip through. But they're ludicrous for a purpose: helping to tighten up the game's language. You are faulting the people who look for bugs, while calling for the bugs themselves to remain.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Hey folks, I'm going to close this thread down. If you want to discuss the new update here is the blog post & discussion thread for it: Sending Your Heroes to the Mirrored Moon. If you want to get into a niche or specific discussion of parts of the update, you can also start a new thread.

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