Twitch 9-21: Preview of Rules Update 1.3


General Discussion

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Joe M. wrote:


Rogues: instead of just nFinesse Striker, you can choose one of three different paths (finesse, brute, feinter)

Ranger: double slice is dropped for 2 feats: one makes you better with two weapon fighting, one makes you better with ranged (fire twice, if both hit add together)

Proficiency: untrained is now (lvl - 4). Also, skill DCs are adjusted, and lowered overall. Net result: as you get better and better you get more and more certain of success. Every skill DC in Doomsday Dawn updated to reflect

Death and dying: getting much more deadly. New condition, “wounded,” you acquire when you are healed back up from 0 hp. Next time you drop to 0, your wounded value is added on to your dying value. And since you die at dying 4 ... this can mean insta-death if you’re doing too much up-and-down.

Mundane Healing: Medicine gets a new function: Treat Wounds. This removes Wounded and also heals damage. Cures (healer’s lvl) * (your con mod) hp. Makes out-of-combat mundane healing very possible, making magical healing more for in-combat, mundane healing for out-of-combat.

Death & medicine: Seems fine to have to bandage someone after a near death experience. Really hoping this makes out of combat healing balanced and viable.

Shields: no multiple dents. One dent and then the rest of the damage goes to you.

Identifying magic items: doesn’t take as long. I wasn’t clear on how long it will take in new rules, but works with someone else using Medicine to heal everyone.

ALL 12 MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES. Goal: you can do this class thing, but you can’t just be a better Barbarian than the Barbarian herself. The 4 we have are rebalanced. Biggest change to Fighter, which a *lot* of folks had been grabbing for armor proficiency. Now it will just step up your armor prof to the next level. (If you want more armor...

Rogue: Since our rogues have always been finesse combatants, I don't care much about brutes, but more options is always nice.

Rangers: Great to hear that rangers are going to be able to use their iconic combat style again. Seems odd that they would remove the one early level ranger feat that is actually good.

Skills: If they are going to make non proficient penalty -4,but reduce DCs by 2, that would make proficient users 10% more likely to succeed. Seems good to me.

Shields: Thanks for the clarification.

Multi classing: Happy to get a version for each core class. Please don't Nerf them too much. Class feats are our most limited resource, trading them away should get us nice things.

I'm happy to see three of my group's concerns being addressed. Returning to a state of cautious optimism. Still want to see alchemists fixed, bonus damage dice not linked to weapon +, better general feats, slight buff to magic (remember that monsters save about 50% of the time), and user friendliness of the core book improved.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Thanks for posting the summary Joe M.!!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:
Simon Dragonar wrote:
I don't see how you can admit such interpretations or readings are valid and in the same breath advocate for ignoring the accompanying results. It happened at certain tables which have already been admitted to abide by RAW. It didn't happen at others. So what is the issue? What is with the hostility?

They did not "admit" to playing by RAW, the CLAIMED to play by RAW.

Out of the 6 game sessions I've played (Finished Chapters 1-3) we only had 1 PC die in that ENTIRE time, and the GM was very much playing by the RAW, even when it was a detriment to the safety of the party.

I would bet ANY number of dice from my personal collection that the 11/11 TPK claims are at LEAST partially fraudulent, if not wholesale lies to bash the system. Please bear in mind this my opinion only, but I simply don't see this as being anything more than hyperbole, exaggeration, intentional misreading of the RAW and trolling.

You have to wonder. All of the GMs I've seen on this forum that claim full TPKs on every chapter are also ones that if you look at their post history were overly unhappy and negative of the system as soon as it was announced. It really can't be a coincidence.


Dire Ursus wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Simon Dragonar wrote:
I don't see how you can admit such interpretations or readings are valid and in the same breath advocate for ignoring the accompanying results. It happened at certain tables which have already been admitted to abide by RAW. It didn't happen at others. So what is the issue? What is with the hostility?

They did not "admit" to playing by RAW, the CLAIMED to play by RAW.

Out of the 6 game sessions I've played (Finished Chapters 1-3) we only had 1 PC die in that ENTIRE time, and the GM was very much playing by the RAW, even when it was a detriment to the safety of the party.

I would bet ANY number of dice from my personal collection that the 11/11 TPK claims are at LEAST partially fraudulent, if not wholesale lies to bash the system. Please bear in mind this my opinion only, but I simply don't see this as being anything more than hyperbole, exaggeration, intentional misreading of the RAW and trolling.

You have to wonder. All of the GMs I've seen on this forum that claim full TPKs on every chapter are also ones that if you look at their post history were overly unhappy and negative of the system as soon as it was announced. It really can't be a coincidence.

I think it matters a vast amount just how the GM plays. We have not had any TPKs, but I don't try to kill my players. I don't generally focus fire on one player, don't play the monsters as expert tacticians, and remind them they still have a hero point when they hit dying 3. If I GMed more aggressively, but still within the rules, I certainly could have killed them.

Also, does anyone actually use the secret rolls? The system already seems stacked against them, it feel mean spirited to just pretend to roll some dice and declare they they break their lockpicks and trigger the trap.


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Dire Ursus wrote:
You have to wonder. All of the GMs I've seen on this forum that claim full TPKs on every chapter are also ones that if you look at their post history were overly unhappy and negative of the system as soon as it was announced. It really can't be a coincidence.

Yeah, confirmation bias, I am seeing some of it on both sides (those initially overly excited and shilling PF2, now claiming it runs perfectly and they have 0 problems with any encounters, etc). Some on both sides have probably not even played, it's just the way of things.


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WhiteMagus2000 wrote:
Dire Ursus wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Simon Dragonar wrote:
I don't see how you can admit such interpretations or readings are valid and in the same breath advocate for ignoring the accompanying results. It happened at certain tables which have already been admitted to abide by RAW. It didn't happen at others. So what is the issue? What is with the hostility?

They did not "admit" to playing by RAW, the CLAIMED to play by RAW.

Out of the 6 game sessions I've played (Finished Chapters 1-3) we only had 1 PC die in that ENTIRE time, and the GM was very much playing by the RAW, even when it was a detriment to the safety of the party.

I would bet ANY number of dice from my personal collection that the 11/11 TPK claims are at LEAST partially fraudulent, if not wholesale lies to bash the system. Please bear in mind this my opinion only, but I simply don't see this as being anything more than hyperbole, exaggeration, intentional misreading of the RAW and trolling.

You have to wonder. All of the GMs I've seen on this forum that claim full TPKs on every chapter are also ones that if you look at their post history were overly unhappy and negative of the system as soon as it was announced. It really can't be a coincidence.

I think it matters a vast amount just how the GM plays. We have not had any TPKs, but I don't try to kill my players. I don't generally focus fire on one player, don't play the monsters as expert tacticians, and remind them they still have a hero point when they hit dying 3. If I GMed more aggressively, but still within the rules, I certainly could have killed them.

Also, does anyone actually use the secret rolls? The system already seems stacked against them, it feel mean spirited to just pretend to roll some dice and declare they they break their lockpicks and trigger the trap.

I do use secret rolls. Not for anything they can get physical feedback on such as lockpicking or athletics, but for in combat knowledge checks and for perception in a lot of cases.

Part 2 perception spoiler:
When they decided to go looking for secret doors. Good thing too, as they reasoned from the map shape that there had to be a hidden room and kept spamming checks, and knowing their outcome would likely have massively altered how they played.


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WhiteMagus2000 wrote:


I think it matters a vast amount just how the GM plays. We have not had any TPKs, but I don't try to kill my players. I don't generally focus fire on one player, don't play the monsters as expert tacticians, and remind them they still have a hero point when they hit dying 3. If I GMed more aggressively, but still within the rules, I certainly could have killed them.

This.

My group and I enjoy the sense of danger that comes with harder battles and merciless foes.
For this reason, I certainly fall under the "agressive GM" category. While no character died in Chapter 1, one came really close to that (dying 3, recovered naturally).
During Chapter 2, three players had to use their Hero Point to avoid death and I killed two PCs in the end (the same that had previously used their Hero Points).
No TPK though, whenever a character died, the others could generally finish the fight before it turned even deadlier.

Silver Crusade

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WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

but I don't try to kill my players.

Also, does anyone actually use the secret rolls? The system already seems stacked against them, it feel mean spirited to just pretend to roll some dice and declare they they break their lockpicks and trigger the trap.

I'm generally a softy as a GM but, for the Playtest, I HAVE been trying hard to kill the characters. Managed a TPK in Doomsday Dawn part 1 (old dying rules). But no other deaths so far despite my best efforts.

Note, by "best efforts" I mean following the rules, using reasonably optimal tactics, etc. Some slight bias AGAINST the PCs when the rules are unclear. But NOT going against tactics as written, NOT "creatively interpreting" the rules in unfair ways, etc.

And no, not used secret rules. Hate em. I trust my players to try hard and not metagame


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When were we getting the updates?


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graystone wrote:
When were we getting the updates?

Jason said around noon (pacific) today so any time now I guess. Do we need a new When is the Next Blog thread where we can all post anxiously?

Silver Crusade

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graystone wrote:
When were we getting the updates?

An hour ago :-(


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay, so it's not just me thinking it was supposed to be up at 3:00 Eastern


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Me, I’m just refreshing the Blog page periodically to see when it changes. I figure when it changes is when it will go live.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Yeah :( Running part 4 in ~1 hour, would have liked to have had the new rules.

Yes I can still run with the previous rule set and report that in the surveys (at least they are capturing which rule set was used), but its sad.

Wish they could release their rules update on Friday's with a guideline of waiting until the next part to put them in play. That way people get a few days to understand the changes before using them; and Paizo gets more informed feedback.


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Vic Ferrari wrote:
Dire Ursus wrote:
You have to wonder. All of the GMs I've seen on this forum that claim full TPKs on every chapter are also ones that if you look at their post history were overly unhappy and negative of the system as soon as it was announced. It really can't be a coincidence.

Yeah, confirmation bias, I am seeing some of it on both sides (those initially overly excited and shilling PF2, now claiming it runs perfectly and they have 0 problems with any encounters, etc). Some on both sides have probably not even played, it's just the way of things.

Indeed. I have had mostly very good playtest experiences so far but still recognise problems in the system. I think play and GM style matter greatly in TPKs. I generally get few player deaths in PF1 (or 3.5 etc.) but have played in groups (or watched play in groups) which seem to have lots of deaths - and style seems to be a big factor. A simple example: if I GM and a player declares an action that (in game) their character would 100% know is stupid or risky I will warn them (especially for a new player - less so for an experienced player). I've seen games where the GM doesn't do that.


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The way my players' availability shook out is every other Sunday... The day right before errata. XD Count me in as also preferring a Friday update.


pauljathome wrote:
graystone wrote:
When were we getting the updates?
An hour ago :-(

Ah, cool then. Thanks everyone. I thought I did the math right to change noon (pacific) to my time so I was wondering if I was missing something. I'll just go back to mashing the refresh. ;)


So much suspense...


THey did say that their time table was based on everything going according to plan...

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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The word from the tech side of things is "soon". Hold tight everybody. All the files are ready, but they need to be put in place.


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Unicore wrote:
THey did say that their time table was based on everything going according to plan...

There is one thing you learn if you watch/listen to the star trek's scotty. Never tell people the actual time you think you'll have something ready.

"I told the captain I would have this diagnostic done in an hour."
"And how long will it really take you?"
"An hour!"
"Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would really take, did you?"
"Of course I did."
"Oh, laddie, you have a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker."
- La Forge and Scott, revealing the secret to his reputation


just got back from a gloomhaven session, clicked download updates, saw 1.2.

now i'm a sad little vermling :(


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graystone wrote:
Unicore wrote:
THey did say that their time table was based on everything going according to plan...

There is one thing you learn if you watch/listen to the star trek's scotty. Never tell people the actual time you think you'll have something ready.

"I told the captain I would have this diagnostic done in an hour."
"And how long will it really take you?"
"An hour!"
"Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would really take, did you?"
"Of course I did."
"Oh, laddie, you have a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker."
- La Forge and Scott, revealing the secret to his reputation

I loved that scene. Told you the essence of both Scotty and Geordi, all in under a minute. :-)


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The word from the tech side of things is "soon". Hold tight everybody. All the files are ready, but they need to be put in place.

Sooo. The point at which "then" will be "now"?

--Spaceballs ;)

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
Unicore wrote:
THey did say that their time table was based on everything going according to plan...

There is one thing you learn if you watch/listen to the star trek's scotty. Never tell people the actual time you think you'll have something ready.

"I told the captain I would have this diagnostic done in an hour."
"And how long will it really take you?"
"An hour!"
"Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would really take, did you?"
"Of course I did."
"Oh, laddie, you have a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker."
- La Forge and Scott, revealing the secret to his reputation

You just hit a pet peeve of mine. Managers who think they're being "tough" (Kirk fell into this category) when they halve estimates.

The reality is that is just a game for incompetents. As long as both sides use the same factor then no real harm is done. But if one uses the wrong factor then either too much or too little time is scheduled.

The best thing is for everybody to be as honest as possible. A TRUE miracle worker is one who is always close to spot on in their estimates, neither too high nor too low.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Zi Mishkal wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The word from the tech side of things is "soon". Hold tight everybody. All the files are ready, but they need to be put in place.

Sooo. The point at which "then" will be "now"?

--Spaceballs ;)

Soon...


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pauljathome wrote:


The best thing is for everybody to be as honest as possible. A TRUE miracle worker is one who is always close to spot on in their estimates, neither too high nor too low.

In my work I found that adding 30% to the honest estimate is a better indicator of when something will really get done :) Murphy's law never sleeps.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Soon can't be fast enough Dx


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Zi Mishkal wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The word from the tech side of things is "soon". Hold tight everybody. All the files are ready, but they need to be put in place.

Sooo. The point at which "then" will be "now"?

--Spaceballs ;)

Soon...

How soon is now?


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The word from the tech side of things is "soon". Hold tight everybody. All the files are ready, but they need to be put in place.

If I hold any tighter I might burst.

Maybe Paizo should consider some alternative file mirrors.
As a tech guy myself, a file update shouldn't take this much hassle for you guy to have to deal with.


CyberMephit wrote:
pauljathome wrote:


The best thing is for everybody to be as honest as possible. A TRUE miracle worker is one who is always close to spot on in their estimates, neither too high nor too low.
In my work I found that adding 30% to the honest estimate is a better indicator of when something will really get done :) Murphy's law never sleeps.

4pm friday for Pathdinder Friday to 12pm Monday is 68 hours, 30% of that is 20.4 hours, so I guess we should expect it at 8:24am tomorrow.


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CyberMephit wrote:
pauljathome wrote:


The best thing is for everybody to be as honest as possible. A TRUE miracle worker is one who is always close to spot on in their estimates, neither too high nor too low.
In my work I found that adding 30% to the honest estimate is a better indicator of when something will really get done :) Murphy's law never sleeps.

As someone I talked to recently said, "account for delays".

Silver Crusade

CyberMephit wrote:
pauljathome wrote:


The best thing is for everybody to be as honest as possible. A TRUE miracle worker is one who is always close to spot on in their estimates, neither too high nor too low.
In my work I found that adding 30% to the honest estimate is a better indicator of when something will really get done :) Murphy's law never sleeps.

Depends on who is doing the estimates. Best boss I ever had applied a different factor to different people. It worked REALLY well but the key was to be as honest as possible.

Scotty was a hack and Kirk incompetent

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Take the debate about individual playtest results somewhere else so this thread isn't derailed into really niche arguments about one particular person's results.


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AM BARK BARK, 13 PAGES BORK BORK VERY EXCITE!!

**Heavy Breathing**


So I'm confused. I have an email saying I have updated downloads, but every time I try to download the new update file it keeps giving me the 9/10 update.

Is anyone else having this problem?


ereklich wrote:

So I'm confused. I have an email saying I have updated downloads, but every time I try to download the new update file it keeps giving me the 9/10 update.

Is anyone else having this problem?

I am.


HWalsh wrote:
ereklich wrote:

So I'm confused. I have an email saying I have updated downloads, but every time I try to download the new update file it keeps giving me the 9/10 update.

Is anyone else having this problem?

I am.

same, cleared cache, same.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Soon...

Will this be within the hour or should I just check on it tomorrow morning?


Terrordactyl wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Soon...
Will this be within the hour or should I just check on it tomorrow morning?

I'm pretty sure "Soon" actually means: "We're hoping it be within the next hour but have no idea if it's not going to be within the next week instead". :P

In short, no one knows, could be in a few minutes, could be tomorrow.
It's not like it's already midnight here anyway, I can wait a few more hours. ^^


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
dnoisette wrote:
Terrordactyl wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Soon...
Will this be within the hour or should I just check on it tomorrow morning?

I'm pretty sure "Soon" actually means: "We're hoping it be within the next hour but have no idea if it's not going to be within the next week instead". :P

In short, no one knows, could be in a few minutes, could be tomorrow.
It's not like it's already midnight here anyway, I can wait a few more hours. ^^

Us Europeans though :(

Currently 1am


LiquidLeoc wrote:


Us Europeans though :(
Currently 1am

That was meant to be sarcastic, it's indeed already 12.00 a.m. where I live.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
dnoisette wrote:
LiquidLeoc wrote:


Us Europeans though :(
Currently 1am
That was meant to be sarcastic, it's indeed already 12.00 a.m. where I live.

Oh oops xD


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"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)


graystone said wrote:


"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

I have begun refreshing the site so often I'm concerned I might actually end up sending it back to the offline state it was a while back :(

Dataphiles

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graystone wrote:

"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

*sigh* I'll get the torches and pitchforks.


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Avalon Reln wrote:
graystone wrote:

"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

*sigh* I'll get the torches and pitchforks.

Have fun storming the castle!


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Avalon Reln wrote:
graystone wrote:

"Soon"

There is chum in the water and the natives are getting restless... There's going to be talk of storming the castle at this rate. ;)

*sigh* I'll get the torches and pitchforks.
Have fun storming the castle!

Think it'll work?

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