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Hi all, so far I am loving the new pathfinder edition. I'll start giving feedback here since this is the first thing I really didn't find as good as the rest of the game: the monk class.
1) It feels poorly fleshed out, just by reading through the class description you get a sense that there's just a bunch of class features in a list, without an organic structuring and you are supposed to pick some. A bit underwhelming.
>> Proposed solution: why not structure it like the druid with the "orders" feature, where you select a school of monastic tradition and bundle up many of the gazilion choices (e.g. stances, ki powers) clearly INSIDE those categories.
2) The key ability choice doesn't seem to stand on its own two legs. The idea might have been good, but it's not structured into anything concrete inside the class mechanics. As a player, I can't clearly understand the flavour of what it means to choose one or the other, as it is not presented to me in a compelling way. Plus, I fear statistics-wise it makes the monk weak in combat (if you choose STR, you will lack too much in AC, if you pick DEX, you won't hit and you won't deal damage...)
>> Proposed solution: the unarmed attack could have the finesse trait built-in, and it should also be possible for the monk to obtain a "finesse striker" like feature, maybe as a class feat, in order to bring the DEX monks on par with damage. For STR monks you may let them add their STR mod to the AC, similarly to what we used to do with WIS in previous editions. It may also be necessary to have them start as experts in unarmed attacks (same as the fighter after all), instead of simply trained.
3) ki strike feels underwhelming to use, and ki powers in general lack a structuring. Also stances, especially their description, sound a bit silly... that's just personal preference of course, but I would have appreciated a much more serious approach rather than "you make yourself look like a crane so you bat your arms around". That level of 70's chinese martial arts B movie stuff doesn't hold up very much in 2018 I think. I haven't got a detailed argument for this point, sorry, they just don't click for me. Disregard this if you want.
Number 1 and 2 are the big bad things in my opinion. I hope this helps steering this class towards a good place!
Thanks
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I feel like at later levels the dex monk doesn't fall that much damage behind the str monk, like at level 8 a dex monk with 14 str using tiger or wolf style will be dealing 3d8+2 on strikes, while a 18 st monk using those same styles will be dealing 3d8+4, or 3d10+4 with dragon style (which makes your strikes not agile, so your later attacks will hit 5-10% less often.)
A lot of the monk's problems seem to smooth out at later levels once you get handwraps and bracers, but those first few levels when you're dealing with having only a couple of monk feats are pretty dire (particularly if one of them is the ki strike tax.)
I like the elegance of Flurry of Blows. The monk can make two Strikes at the cost of only one action slot, but both Strikes have to be unarmed. That reinforces the monk's emphasis on unarmed strikes and rewards it.
Paizo has a paradox to deal with in the monk's mystic abilities. Some people want to play a non-magical martial artist, others want ki-based martial arts, and others want full-fledged mystical monk magic. Given Pathfinder 2nd Edition's class feat design, one elegant solution to the paradox was to create a gateway feat, Ki Strike, for both the ki martial arts and the mystic magic.
Unfortunately, a gateway feat is terribly hard to balance, especially when it has to serve two different builds. If it is overpowered, then the non-magical martial artist is marginalized. If it is underpowered, then it is a feat tax. We Pathfinder players have learned to tolerate feat taxes, sigh, so Paizo leaned toward underpowered.
In addition, since martial arts has many schools, perhaps represented by the different stances and weapons, the monk class keeps branching and branching. The monk could use a few high-level feats that merge branches together again. Combine two stances, or allow a ki power via stance rather than Ki Strike.
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I feel like "Ki Strike" is bland enough that people who want completely non-magical monks could just have it for free and it wouldn't be a problem to imagine your non-mystic monk from "focusing when they strike so they hit harder and more accurately" a certain number of times per day.
If you don't want to teleport, fly, self-heal, etc. then just don't take those feats. Other classes with spell points don't have to buy the basic ability, so it's weird that monks do.
2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.
3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.
Level appropriate magic weapons and armor are both super necessary in PF 2E. I don't think you could play any entry in the playtest past level 1 without appropriate magical equipment. Maybe you could do the level 4 adventure but you would really need to get lucky.
Also, I assume you mean that it is unacceptable that Monks don't get legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks? They get Master at level 13. I will note that Monks get perfected form even if they don't get legendary proficiency: that is a pretty decent accuracy boost on your first attack each round, at least.
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My first level Dex-focused monk with Tiger Style has had no difficulty hitting or dealing damage so far, as long as my dice weren't being completely useless. (I did have an eight-attack streak that I did not roll double digits, but I can't blame that on the class chassis.) I haven't leveled him up to 9th level yet, but so far, I am quite happy with the monk's performance.
I haven't taken Ki Strike yet, and I will have to burn a feat on some kind of ranged option, but those are future-Shisumo's problem.
Quick correction to #2: Unarmed is Agile/Finesse by default
Oh I didn't realise that, if that's the case then that's one less problem! Thanks.
Still, I would like to see at least the possibility to use DEX as damage modifier as well (same as the rogue's "finesse striker"). If the rogue has it, I can't see why a martial arts expert wouldn't.
After reading your interesting comments, I get the feeling that I should test more at higher levels to see if things "smooth" out enough, and in fact it looks like that might be the case.
However, I still can't help but feeling a bit underwhelmed when it comes to the presentation and structuring of the class. I would love for the monk to have the same structured guidance into a "path" of sorts same as you have for clerics (you start choosing gods and domains), druid (order), barbarian (totems), sorcerer (bloodline stuff?) etc.
I'm thinking martial arts paths, schools, choose between a "mystic monk" and a "martial monk" (or ways like what they have done in D&D 5e), or similar.
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DEX-to-damage is all you need for me to NEVER play PF2E again.
STR-based characters have been disenfranchised for way too long.
I like a mix between STR/DEX for characters, I only wish you could replace DEX for INT/CHA/WIS for AC for mystical STR builds.
DEX hitting for less damage is fine since so many feats are able to increase output easily.
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2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.
3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.
Level appropriate magic weapons and armor are both super necessary in PF 2E. I don't think you could play any entry in the playtest past level 1 without appropriate magical equipment. Maybe you could do the level 4 adventure but you would really need to get lucky.
Also, I assume you mean that it is unacceptable that Monks don't get legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks? They get Master at level 13. I will note that Monks get perfected form even if they don't get legendary proficiency: that is a pretty decent accuracy boost on your first attack each round, at least.
I specifically mentioned how unimpressive Perfected Form is.
You get it at level 19.
Your to hit for level 19 is going to be 32 if you have a + 5 weapon and 20 dexterity or strength. You can hit on your first attack if you roll under a 10, if you have no penalties, because the AC of a cr 19 is 42.So max out your attack stat
Have a + 5 weapon
Only usable once a round
Only works if you miss your first attack
Only works if you do not have any penalties to the attack.I would gladly just take legendary proficiency instead
With magic items, your attack stat should be at 22 by level 19 so your total bonus should be:
19 (lv.) + 2 (prof.) + 4 (item) + 6 (attr.) = +33So you should be auto-hitting your first attack against the on-level foe. You can auto-hit on your second attack too if you are using an agile weapon, have flanking, and and an additional +1 circumstance bonus (from a bard or bless or ki strike), you also auto-hit your second iterative attack.
That seems solid to me.
Additional Addendum:
You could do a hilarious build if you take wolf claw style, diamond fists, and then use your level 20 feat to pick up certain strike out of the fighter class. You could make 4 attacks that all have guaranteed damage in a round with the later attack all dealing extra damage from forceful/diamond fist.
...2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.
3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.
Level appropriate magic weapons and armor are both super necessary in PF 2E. I don't think you could play any entry in the playtest past level 1 without appropriate magical equipment. Maybe you could do the level 4 adventure but you would really need to get lucky.
Also, I assume you mean that it is unacceptable that Monks don't get legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks? They get Master at level 13. I will note that Monks get perfected form even if they don't get legendary proficiency: that is a pretty decent accuracy boost on your first attack each round, at least.
I specifically mentioned how unimpressive Perfected Form is.
You get it at level 19.
Your to hit for level 19 is going to be 32 if you have a + 5 weapon and 20 dexterity or strength. You can hit on your first attack if you roll under a 10, if you have no penalties, because the AC of a cr 19 is 42.So max out your attack stat
Have a + 5 weapon
Only usable once a round
Only works if you miss your first attack
Only works if you do not have any penalties to the
You can get belts and what-have-you for a +2 to a single stat so you should be able to get it to +6. And you are right. Either way: this is what I get for posting from my phone and doing math in my head. I don't know where that extra "+2" came from. I must have added the proficiency bonus twice.
Still, with a +5 equipment bonus (which might admittedly be hard to get at level 19), you will be sitting at a +32 to attack. I will also note that it has been said elsewhere that the 2 CR 19 monsters in the playtest are kind of outliers in terms of their expected defense values.
Congratulations, you can not even hit on your first attack without bonuses while rolling a 10 against on level enemies.
Paizo's already acknowledged that higher level enemies have stats that are too high. They haven't said what stats and by how much they'll come down, but yeah. It's a known problem.
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DEX-to-damage is all you need for me to NEVER play PF2E again.
Preach it Wizz!
Dex is already too powerful and important, and every time I see people requesting Finesse adding Dex to Damage I get aggravated beyond reason. As it stands there is only 1 type of PC that would ever put their Dex at anything less than 16, and those are the Heaviest of Heavy Armor focused Characters, if we took Damage away from Str for Finesse weapons we would INSTANTLY see a drastic disappearance of Heavy Armor and Two Handed Weapon Characters in favor of a flood of Rapier wielding Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians all with 18 Dex.
having played the monk extensively during the play test. I have to disagree with almost everything. The monk is really designed well.
I do agree that while in this ki strike is actually not bad. +1 is really good in this version of the game, it's a like bland for the gate keeper class feature and feels like a feat tax.
master of many styles is too high at level 16.
i'm not sure if I agree that monks cant get legendary in unarmed.
I like the elegance of Flurry of Blows. The monk can make two Strikes at the cost of only one action slot, but both Strikes have to be unarmed.
Talking of flurry, I really really like it and think it's a great example of a well-designed core feature, at least on paper. Simply because it opens up so much more of your turn to use freely. As an asides, I'm kind of curious as to how easy it will be to access if at all via the Monk Multiclass. For obvious reasons.
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I do agree that while in this ki strike is actually not bad. +1 is really good in this version of the game, it's a like bland for the gate keeper class feature and feels like a feat tax.
Feats at low level are so tight for monks (since you need them to define your combat style and give you options- basically everyone takes a style feat) that it would be a huge benefit to monks if "Ki Strike" was just a class feature like "Lay on Hands" where the class in question can decide whether or not they want to invest in additional spell points and powers which use them.
I have a bunch of monk builds I want to play that just need one more feat somewhere in the low levels, and the obvious culprit is Ki Strike since it's the thing I least want to use.
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DEX-to-damage is all you need for me to NEVER play PF2E again.Preach it Wizz!
Dex is already too powerful and important, and every time I see people requesting Finesse adding Dex to Damage I get aggravated beyond reason. As it stands there is only 1 type of PC that would ever put their Dex at anything less than 16, and those are the Heaviest of Heavy Armor focused Characters, if we took Damage away from Str for Finesse weapons we would INSTANTLY see a drastic disappearance of Heavy Armor and Two Handed Weapon Characters in favor of a flood of Rapier wielding Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians all with 18 Dex.
No and no. Paladins can't have it, Barbarians can't have it, Fighters can't have it etc.
It is an extraordinary feature of characters who are trained to fight in an exotic and unusual way. Therefore, it makes perfect sense for the monk to have it.Right now the rogue has it... If the rogue has it, then the monk must have it. Or take it away for everyone. Or better still, leave it and find another way to make STR more relevant for the STR users, for instance make it so you have to use STR to resist the athletics uses instead of acrobatics, or add more ways to cirumvent DEX from AC (surprise attacks, flat footed which used to make you loose your DEX mod, feint, you name it).
Or what about give STR based fighters a "break defense" feature, which gives them the ability to ignore the DEX to the AC of your hated DEX lovers.
They ways to make this work are countless.
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Probably being able to take a 1d8 agile finesse style (tiger, wolf, or tangled forest) is more of a benefit to a dex-monk than dex-to-damage would be. Since that adds +1 damage per die and you still benefit from points put into strength (which is easily done as you increase stats 4 at a time.)
Like a level 20 monk with 22 dex and 18 strength with +5 handwraps deals 6d8+4 damage, while a level 20 rogue with 22 dex and a +5 short sword or rapier deals 6d6+6 damage.
Plus, those style feats do other things than add damage.
Probably being able to take a 1d8 agile finesse style (tiger, wolf, or tangled forest) is more of a benefit to a dex-monk than dex-to-damage would be. Since that adds +1 damage per die and you still benefit from points put into strength (which is easily done as you increase stats 4 at a time.)
Like a level 20 monk with 22 dex and 18 strength with +5 handwraps deals 6d8+4 damage, while a level 20 rogue with 22 dex and a +5 short sword or rapier deals 6d6+6 damage.
Plus, those style feats do other things than add damage.
I understand, but I don't see the the problem in having instead, similarly to your example:
level 20 monk with 22 dex with +5 handwraps deals 6d8+6 damage (with DEX to damage), BUT having to choose specific feats to do so (the stance)! while a level 20 rogue with 22 dex and a +5 short sword or rapier deals 6d6+6 damage, BUT not having to chose any feats to do so! leaving for the rogue more slots to choose different feats, maybe enhancing his sneak attack instead, which is what the rogue is actually supposed to do.It doesn't seem unbalanced to me.
I'm personally very classic when it comes to roles, the monk is supposed to fight and deal damage differently than any other class because they are strange and weird. I would say even take away the STR choice from key attribute of the basic monk altogether, because STR is not what a typical, classic monk is known for! If you think DEX is already too powerful then just make it so that the monk adds WIS to damage instead!
A STR monk... is just a worse version of a fighter, we already have STR based fighters, why would I want another one of those?
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If it were up to me even rogues wouldn't have dex to damage. if you make dex to damage monks then you completely remove str to damage monks.
Crane Wing, dragon tail, tiger claw, etc. attacks are unarmed attacks and so qualify for flurry of blows and anything else which requires an unarmed attack as each of the feats mentions that the appropriate type of strike has the "unarmed" trait.
What the "unarmed" trait does is make something count as an unarmed attack, and nothing is an unarmed attack unless it has the "unarmed" trait.
What Powerful Fist does is bump normal unarmed attacks from 1d4 to 1d6, if you have entered a stance the stance will grant you an unarmed attack which is at least as good as a 1d6 unarmed attack, so there is no further benefit for Powerful Fist. It's not "increase it one die size" it's "increase it to 1d6".
You enter the stance of a tiger, using your hands like claws. You can make tiger claw attacks. These deal 1d8 slashing damage; are in the brawling group; and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits.
Seems pretty clear to me, tiger claw attacks are unarmed strikes- you can flurry with them.
Has there been any confirmation yet on if the Monk Stances work with Flurry of Blows class feature?
Asking as the stances clearly state they have a different type of attack over unarmed attacks.
crane wing attacks
dragon tail attacks
tiger claw attacksWolf stance is the closest with - wolf jaw unarmed attacks
While Flurry of Blows is -
Make two unarmed StrikesThen you have this monk class ability -
Powerful Fist
When striking with your fist, you deal 1d6 damage instead of 1d4. You use your normal proficiency when making a lethal attack with a nonlethal unarmed attack.Confused here on this since the stances change the type of attack & the damage die snf if this might be a case of Specific trump General rule...if going by RoW.
Every time I read these "crane wing", "dragon tail", "tiger claw" attacks that feel as if the monks' hands were to grow actual claws or feathers, it makes me cringe.
Why on earth would anyone think that going back to probably the worst parts of B-movie grade fake martial arts stuff from the 70s would be "cool" ?
Well, if you read it that way, it is cringe-y, but it openly states it is "like" or "in imitation of".
These are not "tail" "claw" "jaw" attacks, but "dragon tail" "tiger claw" "wolf jaw" unarmed attacks.
In other words, a specific martial arts technique, named in way normal human language might describe things.
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It should be pretty clear that both Pathfinder and those old Kung Fu films take their inspiration for "animal styles" of martial arts from the same places- the actual real world tradition of "animal styles" from Chinese martial arts which use animals as inspiration or guiding metaphor. Like real world tiger style is about being fluid, direct, powerful, instinctive, and sudden because that's how the inventors of those styles thought tigers were. By contrast the other prominent real world cat style, Panther Style, is a lot more about planning, having an exit route, patience, pragmatism, and being able to adapt quickly to changing circumstances to gain an advantage; because Panthers are much smaller cats than Tigers and have to be more strategic and skillful hunters to survive. Metaphors like this help the student who is familiar with these animals from folklore if not direct observation understand the motivation for and differences between styles.
It's just that for dramatic effect in things like movies and roleplaying games we take the metaphor more literally when that's fun.
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Honestly, I think expert in unarmed defence is just.... incredibly insufficient on the monk. You've fit a whole 1 more AC than someone running around naked, and you need strength for damage, dexterity for AC, constitution for not dying and wisdom if you want ki powers.
I player a 4th level human monk, alongside a barbarian a friend of mine played, who had: slightly less speed (Faster Raging, slower not), better damage, better AC (Same while raging), same accuracy, more HP, and a THP buffer from rage.
Over him, I had really good jumping, slowfall, and could ignore difficult terrain
flurry of blows didn't turn out to be much of an advantage because while he was attacking at 10(4+4+1+1*)/5/0, I was attacking at 10(5+3+1+1*)/5/0/0 (Proficiency+Str+Item+Conditional)
to add to your expert unarmed thing. I think none of the other classes should start out even trained in unarmed defense. I think it should be a feat to get trained for everyone but the monk.
I also think the prof should unlock some other abilities when you get them.
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"Monk... Monk never changes."
The-worst-balanced-class in DD3,5 and PF for many years, monk could use more eastern phylosophy while rebuilt in PF2. Some kind of "kungfu is not the way you fight - it's the way you live".
In terms of game mechanics, it might mean MORE wisdom-based features. (Do you remember wisdom-shooting Zen-archer? Or Irory str\dex-to-wis skill trait?). And MORE class feats - more, than any other class could wish to have (Oh yeah, even more than fighter!). Because FEAT is also THE WAY YOU LIVE - that's why.
Monk is a class of miracles, yet it lacks miracles, so it needs MORE miracles (like skills working from WIS, or some weapon-breaking or spell-breaking etc.).
We have 2 monk players in our town playtest party, both are quite unsatisfied with the class. I shall try to make them tell what exactly they'd expect from release version of monk, and we'll hope gamedesigners will hear us.
If worldwide community participate (asking monk players what they want and writing here) - together we might fix DnD-70th-B-grade-movie-kungfufighter to get a fresh new playable one when the platest is over, and ot will be the most valueable miracle.
I'm definitely on board with those who stand against dex to damage (I always ran it as precision damage in pf1). I do think there could be merit in letting a monk use Wis to hit/damage. Maybe that could be an early feat option. Call it something like "Ki Strike".