Ranged weapon changes- Feedback please!


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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So, coming off 4e and 5e D&D where two-handed ranged weapons are balanced against one-handed melee weapons of the same 'tier' (simple/martial/exotic), into playing PF2, ranged weapons just feel weak. Their damage output may have felt better in 3.5 where everything had much lower hitpoints, but in pf2 it just feels archaic.

My changes (and the reasons for them) would be:
General rules and Traits
♦ Ranged and Finesse weapons default to Dexterity for attacks AND damage.
♦ Thrown weapons change the attack AND damage of the weapon to Strength. Finesse then changes it to Dexterity as normal.
♦ The propulsive trait changes the damage to (full) Strength mod
A slight buff to all ranged weapons. Flat dice to damage is not threatening at any level of play, and a small (~+1) bonus is not that much more in the scheme of things. Thrown weapons' attacks being off Strength gives strong characters a decent (although still relatively short range) option for ranged combat, with finesse then keeping specific ones (mostly) the same as things are now.

Specific Weapons
♦ Dart and Shuriken gain the Finesse trait
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.
♦ Longbows lose the Deadly and Volley traits.
Composite bows getting the upgrade of one stat for attack and damage makes sense in a balance sense, with them costing more money. They are also constructed to take the strain off the user, allowing for precision (Dexterity) to have an effect over Strength. Longbows losing the Deadly trait keeps it in line with most Martial one-handed weapons as it's getting damage boosts from Str/Dex now. Keeping the Deadly trait on Shortbows keeps them in line with Rapiers and gives them a different niche to longbows.


CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.

Wait, what?

Do you not know what composite bows are? You've literally taken the trait that makes composite bows composite bows and given it to regular bows and left the composite bows without.

I don't get this.

Quote:

♦ Longbows lose the Deadly and Volley traits.

Longbows losing the Deadly trait keeps it in line with most Martial one-handed weapons as it's getting damage boosts from Str/Dex now.

...But it's a two-handed weapon...

Liberty's Edge

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CommanderCoyler wrote:

General rules and Traits

♦ Ranged and Finesse weapons default to Dexterity for attacks AND damage.
♦ Thrown weapons change the attack AND damage of the weapon to Strength. Finesse then changes it to Dexterity as normal.

There is no way this is EVER going to fly. Adding Dex to Damage is SO good that once it can be done for free you will instantly see a massive shift from PCs with balanced/good strength scores, over to Fighters, Rogues, & Barbarians with 10-12 Strength.


Draco18s wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.

Wait, what?

Do you not know what composite bows are? You've literally taken the trait that makes composite bows composite bows and given it to regular bows and left the composite bows without.

I don't get this.

Please read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
Composite bows getting the upgrade of one stat for attack and damage makes sense in a balance sense, with them costing more money. They are also constructed to take the strain off the user, allowing for precision (Dexterity) to have an effect over Strength.

which ties into:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Ranged and Finesse weapons default to Dexterity for attacks AND damage.
Draco18s wrote:
Quote:

♦ Longbows lose the Deadly and Volley traits.

Longbows losing the Deadly trait keeps it in line with most Martial one-handed weapons as it's getting damage boosts from Str/Dex now.

...But it's a two-handed weapon...

Again, read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
So, coming off 4e and 5e D&D where two-handed ranged weapons are balanced against one-handed melee weapons of the same 'tier' (simple/martial/exotic), into playing PF2, ranged weapons just feel weak.

Balancing 2H ranged weapons against 1H melee weapons makes sense, you're giving up a bit of damage for extra range. Similar to reach weapons.


CommanderCoyler wrote:

Please read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
Composite bows getting the upgrade of one stat for attack and damage makes sense in a balance sense, with them costing more money. They are also constructed to take the strain off the user, allowing for precision (Dexterity) to have an effect over Strength.

which ties into:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Ranged and Finesse weapons default to Dexterity for attacks AND damage.

But non-composite bows get that same benefit! Your changes make no sense!


Draco18s wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:

Please read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
Composite bows getting the upgrade of one stat for attack and damage makes sense in a balance sense, with them costing more money. They are also constructed to take the strain off the user, allowing for precision (Dexterity) to have an effect over Strength.

which ties into:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Ranged and Finesse weapons default to Dexterity for attacks AND damage.
But non-composite bows get that same benefit! Your changes make no sense!

Again read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.

Which ties into:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ The propulsive trait changes the damage to (full) Strength mod

I admit I may not have been 100% clear, but this was meant as a replacement not an option. So regular bows (and slings) use Dex to hit, Str for damage, Composite bows use Dex for both. This makes Composite an upgrade over regular for high-dex characters.


So, basically

Regular bows attack with Dex, damage with Str
Composite bows attack with Dex, damage with Dex
Shortbows are just weaker longbows
Crossbows are just slower composite bows
Thrown weapons are melee weapons with range

Am I getting it right?


This feels like a problematic solution intended to fix an imaginary problem. It feels convoluted and creates more problems than it addresses.

Dex to all Finesse and Ranged weapons makes them really really good. Too good based on current balancing. Remember, that Ability to Damage is a smaller part of total damage now. When you get extra weapon dice it makes dice matter far more than your ability mod. To avoid Str dumping completely you use it as your damage boost, all characters have the ability to boost strength as they want with general ability boosts. Propulsive lets you stay close to melee weapons for damage. This is all balanced by the fact ranged weapons can be fired at range, and without standard AoOs you can move, and keep moving to keep shooting.


Ediwir wrote:

So, basically

Regular bows attack with Dex, damage with Str
Composite bows attack with Dex, damage with Dex
Shortbows are just weaker longbows
Crossbows are just slower composite bows
Thrown weapons are melee weapons with range

Am I getting it right?

Kinda, though the deadly trait remaining on shortbows makes up at least some of the difference to longbows and gives a different niche i.e. crit fishing. Also most of those comparisons can already be levied towards the weapons in question.


Themetricsystem wrote:
There is no way this is EVER going to fly. Adding Dex to Damage is SO good that once it can be done for free you will instantly see a massive shift from PCs with balanced/good strength scores, over to Fighters, Rogues, & Barbarians with 10-12 Strength.
Zman0 wrote:

This feels like a problematic solution intended to fix an imaginary problem. It feels convoluted and creates more problems than it addresses.

Dex to all Finesse and Ranged weapons makes them really really good. Too good based on current balancing. Remember, that Ability to Damage is a smaller part of total damage now. When you get extra weapon dice it makes dice matter far more than your ability mod. To avoid Str dumping completely you use it as your damage boost, all characters have the ability to boost strength as they want with general ability boosts. Propulsive lets you stay close to melee weapons for damage. This is all balanced by the fact ranged weapons can be fired at range, and without standard AoOs you can move, and keep moving to keep shooting.

This argument again...

Other than Zman's hypocrisy (dex to damage would make them too strong, literally next sentence ability mod doesn't matter as much), what is so unappealing about Strength that players would dump it, given the choice?
Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?


CommanderCoyler wrote:

Again read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.

WHY DO THE HIGH-STRENGTH REQUIREMENT BOWS† NOT DEAL DAMAGE BASED ON STRENGTH?

Quote:
But, when choosing a compound bow for hunting, then you will need to choose a bow with as much draw weight as you can handle. Thus, most youth and female hunters choose draw weights from 45 lbs. to 50 lbs. and most male hunters choose draw weights from 60 lbs. to 70 lbs.

You took the trait that made high draw weight bows special and literally gave it to the other type of bow for NO REASON.

†That's what composite bows have been, traditionally. Req Str 16, deal bonus damage based on Str (up to Str 16).


Draco18s wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:

Again read the whole thing:

CommanderCoyler wrote:
♦ Composite Bows lose the Propulsive trait, Regular Bows gain it.

WHY DO THE HIGH-STRENGTH REQUIREMENT BOWS† NOT DEAL DAMAGE BASED ON STRENGTH?

Quote:
But, when choosing a compound bow for hunting, then you will need to choose a bow with as much draw weight as you can handle. Thus, most youth and female hunters choose draw weights from 45 lbs. to 50 lbs. and most male hunters choose draw weights from 60 lbs. to 70 lbs.

You took the trait that made high draw weight bows special and literally gave it to the other type of bow for NO REASON.

†That's what composite bows have been, traditionally. Req Str 16, deal bonus damage based on Str (up to Str 16).

Ok, then change them back. Regular (what even is a regular bow in terms of draw strength then?) bows get dex, composite bows get str. Feels weird to pay more for the downgrade though...


CommanderCoyler wrote:
Regular (what even is a regular bow in terms of draw strength then?) bows get dex, composite bows get str. Feels weird to pay more for the downgrade though...

The reason you paid more in order to get STR to damage was because you normally got bupkis which is why:

1) Dex to damage is hard to get
2) Propulsive is on the more expensive bow
3) Building high draw weight bows is a more difficult, specialized task (thus costs more)

That's why the trait is where it is. And besides, if all ranged weapons get dex to damage by default, Propulsive can add on top of that damage from strength. System preserved.

As for regular bows:
this is a regular bow, I can't find numbers for the draw weights on this style of bow, but it caps out pretty early (my guess is around 20 pounds). This is a recurve bow, its draw weights can be made much higher. This is a compound bow, which has even higher max draw weights (70+ lbs).

"Composite bow" actually refers to the materials (it being a laminate composite), but probably is best represented by the recurve bow.

Additionally, you can use the same construction methods to build crossbows and get even higher draw weights due to being able to use stiffer materials and shorter spans. It just take a crank mechanism to pull it back and has no strength requirements to use (just time). RPGs represent this as the damage die being larger, the weapon class being Simple (rather than Martial, as it requires little training), and taking an action to reload.


Draco18s wrote:
That's why the trait is where it is. And besides, if all ranged weapons get dex to damage by default, Propulsive can add on top of that damage from strength. System preserved.

Ok, I can accept that. Makes bows somewhere in between 1h and 2h melee weapons in terms of damage.


CommanderCoyler wrote:


Zman0 wrote:

This feels like a problematic solution intended to fix an imaginary problem. It feels convoluted and creates more problems than it addresses.

Dex to all Finesse and Ranged weapons makes them really really good. Too good based on current balancing. Remember, that Ability to Damage is a smaller part of total damage now. When you get extra weapon dice it makes dice matter far more than your ability mod. To avoid Str dumping completely you use it as your damage boost, all characters have the ability to boost strength as they want with general ability boosts. Propulsive lets you stay close to melee weapons for damage. This is all balanced by the fact ranged weapons can be fired at range, and without standard AoOs you can move, and keep moving to keep shooting.

This argument again...

Other than Zman's hypocrisy (dex to damage would make them too strong, literally next sentence ability mod doesn't matter as much), what is so unappealing about Strength that players would dump it, given the choice?
Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?

Morality had nothing to do with it, so you meant to say I was contradicting myself not exhibiting hypocrisy.

Now, you were wrong, my statements weren't mutually exclusive. Though, I could have formatted it correctly. Adding dex to damage for bows really does have an impact at low level, but by the time we see extra damage dice the static modifier doesn't matter that much. And with propulsive, the difference really wasn't that large unless the character completetley dumped str. We're talking about something like 5d6+2 vs 5d6+6. So at 16th level dice matter more, the static is a very small part of total damage. Now at 1st level, d6+0/1 vs d6+4 is big. See, both statements are true and not mutually exclusive and I should have been more specific. It is very possible to simultaneously unbalance low level play with a suggestion that is rather inconsequential at higher levels.


Zman0 wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:


Zman0 wrote:

This feels like a problematic solution intended to fix an imaginary problem. It feels convoluted and creates more problems than it addresses.

Dex to all Finesse and Ranged weapons makes them really really good. Too good based on current balancing. Remember, that Ability to Damage is a smaller part of total damage now. When you get extra weapon dice it makes dice matter far more than your ability mod. To avoid Str dumping completely you use it as your damage boost, all characters have the ability to boost strength as they want with general ability boosts. Propulsive lets you stay close to melee weapons for damage. This is all balanced by the fact ranged weapons can be fired at range, and without standard AoOs you can move, and keep moving to keep shooting.

This argument again...

Other than Zman's hypocrisy (dex to damage would make them too strong, literally next sentence ability mod doesn't matter as much), what is so unappealing about Strength that players would dump it, given the choice?
Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?

Morality had nothing to do with it, so you meant to say I was contradicting myself not exhibiting hypocrisy.

Now, you were wrong, my statements weren't mutually exclusive. Though, I could have formatted it correctly. Adding dex to damage for bows really does have an impact at low level, but by the time we see extra damage dice the static modifier doesn't matter that much. And with propulsive, the difference really wasn't that large unless the character completetley dumped str. We're talking about something like 5d6+2 vs 5d6+6. So at 16th level dice matter more, the static is a very small part of total damage. Now at 1st level, d6+0/1 vs d6+4 is big. See, both statements are true and not mutually exclusive and I should have been more specific. It is very possible to simultaneously unbalance low level play with a suggestion that is rather inconsequential at higher levels.

'Unbalanced at low levels, less so at higher' is how I'd describe the current system. Also you haven't answered my question: What big weakness in the Strength stat, and all it brings outside of attacks, would being able to get the same numbers when using different stats be unbalanced in pf2 when it works brilliantly in other systems?


CommanderCoyler wrote:

'Unbalanced at low levels, less so at higher' is how I'd describe the current system. Also you haven't answered my question: What big weakness in the Strength stat, and all it brings outside of attacks, would being able to get the same numbers when using different stats be unbalanced in pf2 when it works brilliantly in other systems?

Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?

It didn't feel like you were specifically asking me a question.

Carrying Capacity is rarely relevant for combat. 5 Bulk is plenty, more is nice, but you have enough.

Skills are roughly comparable and you listed all the sub aspects of Athletics instead of just listing athletics. Combat maneuvers require not just Str, but Athletics and Athletics magic item for competence.

You also forgot to mention AC which is huge as is Reflex saves. Dex allows you to wear light armor and that means minimal ACP, which consequently greatly lowers your ability to perform non attack Str and Dex based skill checks.

So, no, without being the primary source of bonus damage Str doesn't stack up against Dex. Bulk, Maneuvers, and some skills do not equal AC, Reflex, and skills. With being the damage determiner Str pulls its own weight... hehe pun intended.


Zman0 wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:

'Unbalanced at low levels, less so at higher' is how I'd describe the current system. Also you haven't answered my question: What big weakness in the Strength stat, and all it brings outside of attacks, would being able to get the same numbers when using different stats be unbalanced in pf2 when it works brilliantly in other systems?

Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?

It didn't feel like you were specifically asking me a question.

Carrying Capacity is rarely relevant for combat. 5 Bulk is plenty, more is nice, but you have enough.

Skills are roughly comparable and you listed all the sub aspects of Athletics instead of just listing athletics. Combat maneuvers require not just Str, but Athletics and Athletics magic item for competence.

You also forgot to mention AC which is huge as is Reflex saves. Dex allows you to wear light armor and that means minimal ACP, which consequently greatly lowers your ability to perform non attack Str and Dex based skill checks.

So, no, without being the primary source of bonus damage Str doesn't stack up against Dex. Bulk, Maneuvers, and some skills do not equal AC, Reflex, and skills. With being the damage determiner Str pulls its own weight... hehe pun intended.

I would disagree, for one dex only partially adds to AC (which is why I didn't mention it). In the current system, a high strength character can wear heavier armour to get the same AC as a high dex character, but a high dex character can't do anything about their pathetic damage output compared to a high strength character. Getting dex to damage would BALANCE that out.


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CommanderCoyler wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
That's why the trait is where it is. And besides, if all ranged weapons get dex to damage by default, Propulsive can add on top of that damage from strength. System preserved.
Ok, I can accept that. Makes bows somewhere in between 1h and 2h melee weapons in terms of damage.

And that is why I am a game designer/programmer. You have to consider how the rules interact with each other and how your changes affect that system as a whole.

I'd say "actually, professionally" but I'm currently unemployed and my job title at my last permanent job was two third lie (I had no underlings and we didn't really make games).

:)


Deadly is a quality that scales and is an awesome trait for bows. If the long bow loses it and the short bow keeps it, the short bow is a much better weapon, even as it levels up. Having bows be devastatingly effective when really hitting (critical hit) and not so powerful on regular hits really does a good job of making Archery fun and feel like it looks in fantasy action movies (regular hits glance off arms or armor, while critical hits are the ones that really stick in vital areas.

It does have a problem currently though, and it is not that ranged combat does too little damage.

An issue that the new action economy hides well, but has not addressed is that standing still and attacking as much as possible is the best way to defeat enemies. ranged weapons with no reload time are pretty much the kings of action economy right now and giving them any full attribute bonus to damage is going to make them the much better option than using finesse weapons, especially if you make longbows usable at all ranges. Without AoOs, the Archer doesn't have to move if someone advances to melee on them. You just keep standing still and firing three times.

As long as critical misses have no failures when attacking (especially when attacking with a ranged weapon), any weapon that reliably lets you get 3 attacks and not waste time moving is worth a lot more in damage calculations than it is getting in your analysis.

As much as I dislike dex to damage generally, I can see how it is a passible solution as implemented for the rogue, which includes limiting away from ranged weapons. Fighters and rangers get feats for making finesse melee weapons work better and for other classes, the point of a finesse weapons is that you can keep up a decent attack and defense bonus with only one stat. That is good enough for classes like Bards and Clerics that are otherwise MAD. They don't need it to contribute to damage as well because attack bonus is the most important attribute for reliably doing damage in PF2.

If flat die to damage wasn't threatening at any level of play then fireball would never have become one of the most popular spells of all time over every edition of the game.


Unicore wrote:
Deadly is a quality that scales and is an awesome trait for bows. If the long bow loses it and the short bow keeps it, the short bow is a much better weapon, even as it levels up. Having bows be devastatingly effective when really hitting (critical hit) and not so powerful on regular hits really does a good job of making Archery fun and feel like it looks in fantasy action movies (regular hits glance off arms or armor, while critical hits are the ones that really stick in vital areas.

Die type is still king. D8 will still beat out d6, deadly d10 in terms of average damage at every level, especially as deadly doesn't go up as quickly as raw damage. You can see the difference for yourself here (compare rapier to d8 weapons)

Unicore wrote:

It does have a problem currently though, and it is not that ranged combat does too little damage.

An issue that the new action economy hides well, but has not addressed is that standing still and attacking as much as possible is the best way to defeat enemies. ranged weapons with no reload time are pretty much the kings of action economy right now and giving them any full attribute bonus to damage is going to make them the much better option than using finesse weapons, especially if you make longbows usable at all ranges. Without AoOs, the Archer doesn't have to move if someone advances to melee on them. You just keep standing still and firing three times.

As long as critical misses have no failures when attacking (especially when attacking with a ranged weapon), any weapon that reliably lets you get 3 attacks and not waste time moving is worth a lot more in damage calculations than it is getting in your analysis.

This is why ranged weapons are balanced against one-handed weapons instead of two-handed. So they get some penalty in terms of damage per attack to make up for the fact that they can make more attacks because they have to move less.

Unicore wrote:
If flat die to damage wasn't threatening at any level of play then fireball would never have become one of the most popular spells of all time over every edition of the game.

Fireball, I suspect, is mostly popular for rule-of-cool reasons. Against single targets its damage is lacklustre, it gets most of its damage capability from its AoE potential.


CommanderCoyler wrote:
Zman0 wrote:
CommanderCoyler wrote:

'Unbalanced at low levels, less so at higher' is how I'd describe the current system. Also you haven't answered my question: What big weakness in the Strength stat, and all it brings outside of attacks, would being able to get the same numbers when using different stats be unbalanced in pf2 when it works brilliantly in other systems?

Does Carrying capacity, Breaking objects, Climbing, Disarming, Grappling, Jumping, Shoving, Swimming and Tripping not stack up to Reflex saves, Balancing, Grabbing edges, Sneaking, Stealing, Opening locks and Disabling devices?

It didn't feel like you were specifically asking me a question.

Carrying Capacity is rarely relevant for combat. 5 Bulk is plenty, more is nice, but you have enough.

Skills are roughly comparable and you listed all the sub aspects of Athletics instead of just listing athletics. Combat maneuvers require not just Str, but Athletics and Athletics magic item for competence.

You also forgot to mention AC which is huge as is Reflex saves. Dex allows you to wear light armor and that means minimal ACP, which consequently greatly lowers your ability to perform non attack Str and Dex based skill checks.

So, no, without being the primary source of bonus damage Str doesn't stack up against Dex. Bulk, Maneuvers, and some skills do not equal AC, Reflex, and skills. With being the damage determiner Str pulls its own weight... hehe pun intended.

I would disagree, for one dex only partially adds to AC (which is why I didn't mention it). In the current system, a high strength character can wear heavier armour to get the same AC as a high dex character, but a high dex character can't do anything about their pathetic damage output compared to a high strength character. Getting dex to damage would BALANCE that out.

Capitalizing and bolding things doesn't lend any strength to your argument.

Dex does not partially add to AC, Dex determines how good your particular AC is. Sure, wearing Leather with a +6 Dex is +7 to AC as is the +6 and +1 dex from Plate Mail. Just because they have the same nominal AC value does not make them equal. In that example the TAC of the light armor fighter is 3 higher. In addition they suffer no speed penalties or ACP or suffer from Clumsy.

Dex characters do still get Str to damage. Sure it won't be optimal, but we often only talking about ~+3 pts of damage since its easy for any martial to at least bump Str to 18 long term even as a tertiary statistic.

You also failed to mention how important Reflex saves are. AC/TAC + Reflex saves > Minor Damage boost + Bulk.


as a random note..

Darts need to be reload 0 not -. they're so hard to use because they have to be drawn and only 2 classes get quick draw--and that requires you to attack the same action as drawing it.
Where as 0 like with shuriken, allow you to put one in your hand as no action for whatever reason.. Such as poisoning a weapon or otherwise applying modifiers.


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I think that your proposed changes are really smart, tie into the real-world uses of those weapons, and improve the fun of the game for ranged characters. The changes also open up some cool possible feat mechanics.

The only thing I think needs to be addressed is range. Your damage bonus from Dex needs to shrink with range (except on critical hits). Maybe your Dex damage bonus could go down by 2 with every range increment, the same as the to-hit roll.

And I fully agree with the composite bows getting the Dex damage boost and longbows getting the Str boost. If you’ve actually fired both kinds of bows in real life, you’ll understand immediately.


PneumaPilot2 wrote:
The only thing I think needs to be addressed is range. Your damage bonus from Dex needs to shrink with range (except on critical hits). Maybe your Dex damage bonus could go down by 2 with every range increment, the same as the to-hit roll.

That is a thing that could work. Though it might be a little complex though for something that isn't going to come up hugely often. The penalty to attack rolls for range does lower the effective damage too.


I want shortbows to be agile and longbows lose volley, other than that I am fine with bows. Some thrown weapons would be nice with str + attack like spears or axes. And reloading needs to be adjusted for darts and shuriken, there I do not care if they lose the interact to draw or if you can draw multiple per interact action.

We better not start comparing the damage including the mobility of a lightly armored archer against a plate wearing bruiser as that will lead to bruiser tries to get in range deals 0 damage and dies while the archer runs around in circles.


vestris wrote:
We better not start comparing the damage including the mobility of a lightly armored archer against a plate wearing bruiser as that will lead to bruiser tries to get in range deals 0 damage and dies while the archer runs around in circles.

That is the plan behind making them roughly equal to 1h weapons. Though I will also say the speed penalties (and ACP) need to be toned down a lot (probably to a maximum of 5') either way

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