Paladin Lay On Hands is only really usable out-of-combat; please fix this!


Classes


As the title.

One thing I have observed is that a Paladin's ability to use Lay On Hands requires a hand to use. This means a Paladin using sword and shield is out (including Light Shield, since in PF1, it only let you hold stuff in there, not do anything else with that hand, per RAW), which meant unorthodox ways of combat (such as a two-hander or just using a single weapon) was required to make use of this ability during combat for yourself or someone else.

With the current rules, even two-handing is now impossible. To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it, spend another action for your Lay On Hands (to yourself or an adjacent ally), then spend your last action re-gripping your two-handed weapon. Did I also mention you provoke Attacks of Opportunity the moment you let go of your weapon? Which means against enemies that have them, using Lay On Hands is just giving your enemies free reign to attack you without (much) penalty. It's extremely clunky and extremely punishing for no apparent reason. After all, you can't just heal yourself automatically, or just give your ally a poke with your weapon, or the GM might have to rule you deal damage to yourself or the ally, at the very least, if not outright say "You can't do that." The feat that removes the manipulate trait really only makes Lay On Hands no longer provoke, but that's circumvented when a player removes his grip on his weapon (which provokes), making it a very moot point. You still need a free hand (which takes actions and/or losing equipment to rectify at the least), and you still provoke at the part where it is most critical for it to not occur.

This means a Paladin, if he wants to make effective use of his Lay On Hands, has to use a single weapon (with no shield!), meaning a "swashbuckler" style of combat is required for this feature to have its use. Last I checked, every Paladin should not have to use a Zorro/duelist fighting art to be good at their class features; it's unfairly limiting and just doesn't make sense except for the most stringent and unique of characters. I should be able to play a Paladin, two-handed or sword-and-shield, and be able to make fair use of my class features. Telling me I have to throw away either my shield or my sword to heal others (or even myself!) can actually be grounds for anathema depending on Paladin codes, because it can also mean you're discarding your ability to fight Evil or protect innocents who may need it. Which is either silly, setting myself up for failure, or outright unplayable. (P.S., can we expect to get those deity-specific codes fleshed out? I seriously wonder if a Paladin of X deity can do Y action and have it not go against its code, but I can't know that for sure until it's released, and this isn't really something that requires much developer thought, since it's more of world-building rule than a mechanical one.)

Something like this needs to be fixed if I even want to consider playing a Paladin as a PC. As it stands, unless I want to play Zorro (which meshes poorly with the rest of the Paladin's schtick I might add), I'm not seeing how a Paladin's mechanics really sit together with the current rules set, making it both extremely limiting and unnecessarily clunky.


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Re: Warded Touch

It has errata.

Quote:

Page 108—In Warded Touch feat, just before the final

period, add, “, and you can cast it and deliver your touch
with a hand holding a weapon or shield.


Removing your grip is a free action. You could also drop your shield with a free action.


Could also multiclass into cleric and get the feat that lets you make a weapon or shield a holy symbol. The paladin lay on hands feat is hardly useless in combat. It is however, stupidly less effective then the channel energy they get at 4th.


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citricking wrote:
Removing your grip is a free action. You could also drop your shield with a free action.

I believe they changed this in the errata to now requiring an action if done with a two-handed weapon (it requires one for re-gripping), so for a two-handed weapon, it's still not possible. (Even without that, it still provokes.)

@ Joey Cote: My fear now isn't that the feat is useless, more that the feat is practically required. While a Paladin can select it as their first level feat, having to take it just for using a Shield (their based design), or a two-handed weapon (which was originally possible in PF1), instead of being Zorro, seems silly.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
citricking wrote:
Removing your grip is a free action. You could also drop your shield with a free action.
I believe they changed this in the errata to now requiring an action if done with a two-handed weapon (it requires one for re-gripping)

He said "removing your grip" is a free action, which it is.

You said "regripping costs an action," which it does.

These two statements are not in conflict.


Joey Cote wrote:

Could also multiclass into cleric and get the feat that lets you make a weapon or shield a holy symbol. The paladin lay on hands feat is hardly useless in combat. It is however, stupidly less effective then the channel energy they get at 4th.

channel is stronger (d8 instead of d6 if your hospice) but Warding touch doesn't work on it.

so, if you're using both your hands it is much worse than lay on hands, and for just a 1 die increase, not that worth it imo if you're primarly self-healing.

Also, the +1 AC from lay on hands can be worth more than the extra (average) ~1hp/level extra hp of Heal.

Channel is worth it imo only when you're also doubling up as the party healer and not when you're just a secondary one.


Draco18s wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
citricking wrote:
Removing your grip is a free action. You could also drop your shield with a free action.
I believe they changed this in the errata to now requiring an action if done with a two-handed weapon (it requires one for re-gripping)

He said "removing your grip" is a free action, which it is.

You said "regripping costs an action," which it does.

These two statements are not in conflict.

You're strawmanning me.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it...

He said that in reference to the bolded point, and I said that I think it is currently the bolded part thanks to errata.

Either way, it still provokes an attack of opportunity, which can easily make a Paladin waste actions for no reason (because 3 actions for a heal spell for yourself or an ally while giving an enemy a free attack is not really worth it when you could have spent 2 actions going in and striking the bad guy).

Even if it is still a feat tax, that's a feat that could have instead went to something else to make the Paladin better at his duty, and I thought this edition was meant to eliminate the idea of feat taxing, which this basically is.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it...
He said that in reference to the bolded point, and I said that I think it is currently the bolded part thanks to errata.

I've got the errata right here.

Quote:

In Basic Actions, in Drop, at the end of the first

sentence before the period, add “or release your grip from
one hand while continuing to hold it in the other”.

'Drop' is a reaction that triggers "at the start of your turn, end of your turn, or as you start another action."

Also, because it's relevant:

Quote:

In Warded Touch feat, just before the final

period, add, “, and you can cast it and deliver your touch
with a hand holding a weapon or shield”.


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The fact that this thread has to exist is more indicative of the problem than any comment that could be made here.

This is my #1 concern for PF2, in that the actual class features don't function unless you take these feats and thus must take them or be vanilla characters.

I'd rather see the paladin as a whole gutted and replaced, the whole class is a mess.


Joey Cote wrote:

Could also multiclass into cleric and get the feat that lets you make a weapon or shield a holy symbol. The paladin lay on hands feat is hardly useless in combat. It is however, stupidly less effective then the channel energy they get at 4th.

I don't know if this is RAW, since the casting a spell section states:

Quote:
If you're a cleric [emphasis mine] Casting a Spell from the divine tradition while holding a divine focus, you don't have to have a free hand to take this action, and you can touch the target with the focus instead

Does multiclassing cause you to count as a cleric for this purpose? Because it feels ambiguous to me. I say this, because it's actually something interesting that came up with the most recent part of DD, where I nicked an idea from a poster for a Dwarven Wis-Paladin, and I wound up just going with Warded Touch for being less Ambiguous.

Silver Crusade

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Clerics getting access to a class feature that covers nearly all their spells is neat, but all the other classes struggle somewhat which two-handed weapon use which really isn't too great.

The recent change about losing your grip as a free action already helped significantly.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
This is my #1 concern for PF2, in that the actual class features don't function unless you take these feats and thus must take them or be vanilla characters.

I think the intent is that a basic Paladin only uses Lay on Hands in-between combats, which shouldn't be a problem if the Paladin isn't the party's main healer. Warded Touch is a bonus to the basic Paladin, in that it allows it to do something that would be difficult for it to do otherwise. I suppose the problem is that most people feel that LoH in combat should be the baseline, not something you need a feat (or play a Goblin Paladin of Irori) to get.


Draco18s wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it...
He said that in reference to the bolded point, and I said that I think it is currently the bolded part thanks to errata.

I've got the errata right here.

Quote:

In Basic Actions, in Drop, at the end of the first

sentence before the period, add “or release your grip from
one hand while continuing to hold it in the other”.

'Drop' is a reaction that triggers "at the start of your turn, end of your turn, or as you start another action."

Also, because it's relevant:

Quote:

In Warded Touch feat, just before the final

period, add, “, and you can cast it and deliver your touch
with a hand holding a weapon or shield”.

Oh, it's a reaction now? That's almost as bad as it costing an action, since that means you can't ready or utilize Retributive Strike (or even Attack of Opportunity if you decide to take the feat). That's still absolutely clunky and screws you out of numerous other actions, and also means you can't spend an action to regrip your weapon back to make attacks. And in order to circumvent that, you need to spend a feat tax, which just seems silly to me in relation to things that once didn't require a feat or something to do, and last I checked, one of the design goals of this game was to cut out feat taxing. Did I also mention you'll likely get attacked for trying to do this?

So, in other words, Zorro as the quintessential Paladin playstyle it is.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Oh, it's a reaction now? That's almost as bad as it costing an action, since that means you can't ready or utilize Retributive Strike (or even Attack of Opportunity if you decide to take the feat).

Sorry, it's a Free Action. The symbol next to it is almost the same as Reaction.

It still has a "trigger" line which doubly confuses things.


Darksol said wrote:

As the title.

One thing I have observed is that a Paladin's ability to use Lay On Hands requires a hand to use. This means a Paladin using sword and shield is out (including Light Shield, since in PF1, it only let you hold stuff in there, not do anything else with that hand, per RAW), which meant unorthodox ways of combat (such as a two-hander or just using a single weapon) was required to make use of this ability during combat for yourself or someone else.

With the current rules, even two-handing is now impossible. To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it, spend another action for your Lay On Hands (to yourself or an adjacent ally), then spend your last action re-gripping your two-handed weapon. Did I also mention you provoke Attacks of Opportunity the moment you let go of your weapon? Which means against enemies that have them, using Lay On Hands is just giving your enemies free reign to attack you without (much) penalty. It's extremely clunky and extremely punishing for no apparent reason. After all, you can't just heal yourself automatically, or just give your ally a poke with your weapon, or the GM might have to rule you deal damage to yourself or the ally, at the very least, if not outright say "You can't do that." The feat that removes the manipulate trait really only makes Lay On Hands no longer provoke, but that's circumvented when a player removes his grip on his weapon (which provokes), making it a very moot point. You still need a free hand (which takes actions and/or losing equipment to rectify at the least), and you still provoke at the part where it is most critical for it to not occur.

This means a Paladin, if he wants to make effective use of his Lay On Hands, has to use a single weapon (with no shield!), meaning a "swashbuckler" style of combat is required for this feature to have its use. Last I checked, every Paladin should not have to use a Zorro/duelist fighting art to be good at their class features; it's unfairly limiting and just doesn't make sense except for the most stringent and unique of characters. I should be able to play a Paladin, two-handed or sword-and-shield, and be able to make fair use of my class features. Telling me I have to throw away either my shield or my sword to heal others (or even myself!) can actually be grounds for anathema depending on Paladin codes, because it can also mean you're discarding your ability to fight Evil or protect innocents who may need it. Which is either silly, setting myself up for failure, or outright unplayable. (P.S., can we expect to get those deity-specific codes fleshed out? I seriously wonder if a Paladin of X deity can do Y action and have it not go against its code, but I can't know that for sure until it's released, and this isn't really something that requires much developer thought, since it's more of world-building rule than a mechanical one.)

Something like this needs to be fixed if I even want to consider playing a Paladin as a PC. As it stands, unless I want to play Zorro (which meshes poorly with the rest of the Paladin's schtick I might add), I'm not seeing how a Paladin's mechanics really sit together with the current rules set, making it both extremely limiting and unnecessarily clunky.

Well it's kinda hard to argue on the rules with a misunderstanding of the rules. With no class feats using LoHs in combat is arguably bad, needing a free hand or an extra action and enabling AoO if the enemy has it.

Standard Operation:
Drop action (free with the manipulate trait, but no AoO), Somatic action with lay on hands (manipulate), Interact action to reequip weapon or shield (manipulate).

The other scenario with Warded touch:
You just spend a Somatic action (without the manipulate trait) to heal yourself or an ally.

It can be argued whether it's too much of a feat tax or not, which is definitely a fair discussion. But saying that it's "impossible" to do without it is just plain silly. You could even step away from the enemy if you are that concerned about AoO.


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Nettah wrote:
Darksol said wrote:

As the title.

One thing I have observed is that a Paladin's ability to use Lay On Hands requires a hand to use. This means a Paladin using sword and shield is out (including Light Shield, since in PF1, it only let you hold stuff in there, not do anything else with that hand, per RAW), which meant unorthodox ways of combat (such as a two-hander or just using a single weapon) was required to make use of this ability during combat for yourself or someone else.

With the current rules, even two-handing is now impossible. To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it, spend another action for your Lay On Hands (to yourself or an adjacent ally), then spend your last action re-gripping your two-handed weapon. Did I also mention you provoke Attacks of Opportunity the moment you let go of your weapon? Which means against enemies that have them, using Lay On Hands is just giving your enemies free reign to attack you without (much) penalty. It's extremely clunky and extremely punishing for no apparent reason. After all, you can't just heal yourself automatically, or just give your ally a poke with your weapon, or the GM might have to rule you deal damage to yourself or the ally, at the very least, if not outright say "You can't do that." The feat that removes the manipulate trait really only makes Lay On Hands no longer provoke, but that's circumvented when a player removes his grip on his weapon (which provokes), making it a very moot point. You still need a free hand (which takes actions and/or losing equipment to rectify at the least), and you still provoke at the part where it is most critical for it to not occur.

This means a Paladin, if he wants to make effective use of his Lay On Hands, has to use a single weapon (with no shield!), meaning a "swashbuckler" style of combat is required for this feature to have its use. Last I checked, every Paladin should not have to use a Zorro/duelist fighting art to be good at their class

...

by level 4, you're either using warded touch for wielding stuff and self healing, or you abandom lay on hand for Heal at the same cost but much more efficiency (but you need free hand).

so, in that sense, it's not a feat tax since there are certainly builds that won't use it (i mean, if you're going for a Heal build, it's kinda a wasted feat), and when you get it, it's actually an enhancement on an ability that already works for some things.

personally i consider "feat taxes" feats that seve no other purpose than to actually allow you to use your stuff and offer nothing more. Like the reduced onset on mutagens: without it, you don't use mutagens in combat, with it, you can just use mutagens. There's no alternative.

Old combat experitse was one such feat: it only allowed you to pick up other feats (since the actual "benefit" of expertise was so horrible no one was using it). But, again imo, power attack wasn't a "tax". It offered a tangible benefit rather than being a strict requirement.


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shroudb wrote:
Nettah wrote:
Darksol said wrote:

As the title.

One thing I have observed is that a Paladin's ability to use Lay On Hands requires a hand to use. This means a Paladin using sword and shield is out (including Light Shield, since in PF1, it only let you hold stuff in there, not do anything else with that hand, per RAW), which meant unorthodox ways of combat (such as a two-hander or just using a single weapon) was required to make use of this ability during combat for yourself or someone else.

With the current rules, even two-handing is now impossible. To put it simply, while wielding a two-handed weapon, you must spend 1 action to remove grip on it, spend another action for your Lay On Hands (to yourself or an adjacent ally), then spend your last action re-gripping your two-handed weapon. Did I also mention you provoke Attacks of Opportunity the moment you let go of your weapon? Which means against enemies that have them, using Lay On Hands is just giving your enemies free reign to attack you without (much) penalty. It's extremely clunky and extremely punishing for no apparent reason. After all, you can't just heal yourself automatically, or just give your ally a poke with your weapon, or the GM might have to rule you deal damage to yourself or the ally, at the very least, if not outright say "You can't do that." The feat that removes the manipulate trait really only makes Lay On Hands no longer provoke, but that's circumvented when a player removes his grip on his weapon (which provokes), making it a very moot point. You still need a free hand (which takes actions and/or losing equipment to rectify at the least), and you still provoke at the part where it is most critical for it to not occur.

This means a Paladin, if he wants to make effective use of his Lay On Hands, has to use a single weapon (with no shield!), meaning a "swashbuckler" style of combat is required for this feature to have its use. Last I checked, every Paladin should not have to use a Zorro/duelist fighting art to

...

I believe many players feel it is a "tax" because they are expending a class feat to get Lay on Hands back up to its basic functionality in 1E: A heal that, when used on yourself, is fast and viable to use mid-combat without having to worry about juggling items or taking AoOs.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

The fact that this thread has to exist is more indicative of the problem than any comment that could be made here.

This is my #1 concern for PF2, in that the actual class features don't function unless you take these feats and thus must take them or be vanilla characters.

I'd rather see the paladin as a whole gutted and replaced, the whole class is a mess.

Urgathoa approves of gutting the paladin.


If a party desperately needs a lot of in combat healing, they need a cleric more than they need a paladin, and if a paladin is doing a lot of in combat healing, they need to come to terms with the fact that they're really a cleric.


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Madame Endor wrote:
if a paladin is doing a lot of in combat healing, they need to come to terms with the fact that they're really a cleric.

Paladins in PF1 were probably the class that did more in-combat healing than any other, because they could do it as a Swift action.

I don't recall anyone saying that made them Clerics.

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