Alchemist as a healer


General Discussion

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At the moment no other character comes close to the performance of a positive energy cleric in terms of healing delivered and thus ability to keep adventuring. That's an issue as that makes Cleric an almost mandatory choice.
Alchemists atm struggle with healing as to extend the adventuring day they should really conserve their Resonance for Elixirs of Life, which limits the classes freedom to spend their own resources. Had an idea while trying to build an Alchemist that does healing. What if when another character drinks an Elixir of Life created by an Alchemist with Quick Alchemy and they spend a Resonance, the Alchemist then gains a point of Resonance. That way they Alchemist can regain Resonance spent on healing other characters.


You realise how hard it is to use healing elixirs with Quick Alchemy right?

The elixir will last only until the beginning of your next turn.

So you need 1 action to make it, 1 more to give it, and if weren't adjustent, one more to move to him.

And then the recipient requires 1 more action to drink it.

That's 3-4 actions for a single heal.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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You are better off using advanced alchemy for the life elixirs, not the Quick Alchemy, to pas them to your friends in advance. Less trouble with action economy, leaving only the resonance limitations.


Laik wrote:
You are better off using advanced alchemy for the life elixirs, not the Quick Alchemy, to pas them to your friends in advance. Less trouble with action economy, leaving only the resonance limitations.

It seems like if you really wanted to be a heal focused alchemist advanced alchemy is the way to go. That way you are getting better bang for the buck resonance wise and you can hand a bunch to your main combat folks so they have some ready to draw and chug without you having to try to do a rapid create move hand off in combat. Probably good to have a few resonance set aside to do this in a pinch but most you should be doing during downtime prep.

Dark Archive

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.


LuniasM: Huh. The sad thing is, that might actually be the best source of healing available to a PC.


LuniasM wrote:

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.

it's still 4 actions (and not one), you just have 1 extra round to spread them apart.

and for a level 16 feat, it's not that amzing (exactly due to the action economy hog).

when you need it (vs burst damage) anyone else can burst for more by using 2 spells.

so, it's a resource saver on burst healings, which is kinda... weird.

you optimally want: action economy savers on burst, and resource savers on sustain. That's the opposite.


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shroudb said wrote:

You realise how hard it is to use healing elixirs with Quick Alchemy right?

The elixir will last only until the beginning of your next turn.

So you need 1 action to make it, 1 more to give it, and if weren't adjustent, one more to move to him.

And then the recipient requires 1 more action to drink it.

That's 3-4 actions for a single heal.

It seems you can feed the potion to a willing participant as an Interact action (page 378 under activating potions). So if your adjacent it's just two actions to craft and then stuff it into their mouths. This does actually make alchemy easier to use as a healer in emergencies. Even though i still subscribe to using advanced alchemy to craft elixir of life and hand it out in the beginning of the day until level 16.


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HidaOWin wrote:
At the moment no other character comes close to the performance of a positive energy cleric in terms of healing delivered and thus ability to keep adventuring. That's an issue as that makes Cleric an almost mandatory choice.

Their should be a class feat that allows an alchemist to create Elixirs of Life that heal 1D6 + Int Mod. The boosting of the elixir lasts only 1 day.

Also in general, elixirs should not cost resonance to use. No double counting on resonance.

This way they could be (more) viable healers at low levels.

Dark Archive

shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.

it's still 4 actions (and not one), you just have 1 extra round to spread them apart.

and for a level 16 feat, it's not that amzing (exactly due to the action economy hog).

when you need it (vs burst damage) anyone else can burst for more by using 2 spells.

so, it's a resource saver on burst healings, which is kinda... weird.

you optimally want: action economy savers on burst, and resource savers on sustain. That's the opposite.

It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.


LuniasM wrote:
shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.

it's still 4 actions (and not one), you just have 1 extra round to spread them apart.

and for a level 16 feat, it's not that amzing (exactly due to the action economy hog).

when you need it (vs burst damage) anyone else can burst for more by using 2 spells.

so, it's a resource saver on burst healings, which is kinda... weird.

you optimally want: action economy savers on burst, and resource savers on sustain. That's the opposite.

It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.

Only if you're adjustent.

For out of combat, burst healing is irrelevant.

For the same RP ooc you could drink 2 premade potions for same/more heal without any feat investment.


On the note of Quick Alchemy. About the only time you wanna use that to make an elixir would be to save a dying person I think.
========
If one wanted to make Healing Alchemists more effective... (and in general to make Alchemist more effective) they really shouldn't cost others RP to use.

Also, as I referenced here they really should have a base substance they can add to their alchemcial items or use on its own.
The reason is, at base, the Elixirs are TOO inconsistent. Their spread of healing is too unreliable to put any faith into it at all. With the Alchemical Substance idea, if they had combined it into Elixir that morning and handed them out to their allies, there would be a base bonus healing of INT +1per extra die (or whatever, I'm just using my example. I'm positive the actual designers would come up with something better) at the least. Which means it would actually be worth using an elixir to heal.

In the current playtest, only once have I seen an elixir roll more than half. I haven't tried it at later levels yet, but it probably gets better once you're rolling 7d6 or 10d6. but when its 1d6, 3d6 and such.. it is waaaay to inconsistent. Having some base static amount you could rely on would help with some planning.


LuniasM said wrote:
It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.

Just to make sure everyone has seen it, your example is actually two actions.

"Activating Elixirs
You can activate an elixir by drinking it using the Operate
Activation action, or you activate it by using the Interact
action to feed it to another creature, which requires the
target to spend the Resonance Points that would have
been required for the Operate Activation. You can feed
an elixir only to a creature that is paralyzed, unconscious,
or willing. You usually need only one hand to consume
an elixir or feed it to another creature."
page 359

The fact that it's two instead of three actions, and they can all be performed by you (leaving the target to do defensive or aggressive stuff on his turn) is quite the difference.

I do still think alchemist is falling too far behind other healers, especially with the resonance cost (which I don't hate) so it would make sense to me that any elixir of life is crafted with +int modifier to healing.


Nettah wrote:
LuniasM said wrote:
It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.

Just to make sure everyone has seen it, your example is actually two actions.

"Activating Elixirs
You can activate an elixir by drinking it using the Operate
Activation action, or you activate it by using the Interact
action to feed it to another creature, which requires the
target to spend the Resonance Points that would have
been required for the Operate Activation. You can feed
an elixir only to a creature that is paralyzed, unconscious,
or willing. You usually need only one hand to consume
an elixir or feed it to another creature."
page 359

The fact that it's two instead of three actions, and they can all be performed by you (leaving the target to do defensive or aggressive stuff on his turn) is quite the difference.

I do still think alchemist is falling too far behind other healers, especially with the resonance cost (which I don't hate) so it would make sense to me that any elixir of life is crafted with +int modifier to healing.

yes, i've missed this fact.

but it's still 3 actions in most cases due to touch range.

in most cases you'll have to also Stride next to the recipient.

still 1 action too many for a heal that needs a 16level feat just to be able to compete with a -no staff boosted-, -no feat boosted-, -no anything boosted-, -ranged-, Heal that only uses 2 actions...

Or to be more precise:

2 actions for Alchemist heal vs 1 action for cleric heal (both range of touch) only with Cleric haveing WAY MORE options to actually make it ranged at will, heal for way more than anything an Alchemist can achieve ever, making it AoE, etcetcetc

Dark Archive

shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.

it's still 4 actions (and not one), you just have 1 extra round to spread them apart.

and for a level 16 feat, it's not that amzing (exactly due to the action economy hog).

when you need it (vs burst damage) anyone else can burst for more by using 2 spells.

so, it's a resource saver on burst healings, which is kinda... weird.

you optimally want: action economy savers on burst, and resource savers on sustain. That's the opposite.

It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.

Only if you're adjustent.

For out of combat, burst healing is irrelevant.

For the same RP ooc you could drink 2 premade potions for same/more heal without any feat investment.

Only the Alchemist can drink their Elixirs at no additional RP cost, allies have to spend 1RP per elixir. So while an Alchemist could spend 1RP and craft 2 True Elixirs of Life for 1RP and drink them at no additional cost for 28d6 HP (avg 98), allies would need to spend 2RP for the same amount of healing. A single maximized True Elixir of Life costs 1RP to craft with Quick Alchemy and only costs 1RP to drink, healing 84hp every time. That's significantly more efficient.


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LuniasM wrote:
shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
shroudb wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

At very high levels they can be good - you'll need Enduring Alchemy (Level 4: Quick Alchemy tools and elixirs last until the end of your next turn) and Perfect Medicine (Level 16: When you make an Elixir of Life using Quick Alchemy it heals the maximum amount at no extra cost). That causes the True Elixir of Life to heal 82hp for 1RP and 1 Action, which is very potent healing - it just about matches the healing of a Level 9 Heal spell, and you can easily have a ton of these per day. As long as the party can spare the RP, it's a fantastic resource.

That said, up until that point their healing is actually pretty lackluster.

it's still 4 actions (and not one), you just have 1 extra round to spread them apart.

and for a level 16 feat, it's not that amzing (exactly due to the action economy hog).

when you need it (vs burst damage) anyone else can burst for more by using 2 spells.

so, it's a resource saver on burst healings, which is kinda... weird.

you optimally want: action economy savers on burst, and resource savers on sustain. That's the opposite.

It does take more actions, true, but not 4 - it's 3 if you're handing it over to another person (1 to craft, 1 to pass, 1 to drink). It is indeed pretty hefty on action cost, but you wind up spending less resources with the True Elixir of Life than using Level 9 Heal. At Level 17 an Alchemist could craft this 8 times a day for free in addition to their normal resonance uses. Plus, if you use it outside combat then the action cost doesn't matter.

Only if you're adjustent.

For out of combat, burst healing is irrelevant.

For the same RP ooc you could drink 2 premade potions for same/more heal without any feat investment.

Only the Alchemist can drink their Elixirs at no additional RP cost, allies have to spend 1RP per elixir. So while an Alchemist could spend 1RP and craft 2 True Elixirs of Life for 1RP and drink them at no...

not so much at 16 level with around 18-22 points of RP each.

It IS more efficient, but hardly "significant more efficient".

Either way, RP cost from Infused elixirs has to go altogether, there's simply no justification that Alchemists have to pay double resources to be able to do what they're supposed to do in the first place.

Edit:

just to clarify:

it's not the fact that there's little gain in the feat. There is some gain, I don't dispute that at all.
it's the fact that there's little gain in the feat FOR A LEVEL 16 FEAT the problem.

At 16, you're competeing against permanent elixirs as an example.

Any utility potion that you'd want to use at every encounter, mean 3-5+ extra RP because you need only 1, plus 6-10 free actions/day. (that's 6-10 more elixirs of life and the actions to use them if you want to "heal" people at the very base of the abilitiy)

As opposed to... a few RP (10?) saved for your allies.

Later on, with permanent elixir you get to have things like permanent quick, permanent invisibility, etc due to your 18 feat, which if you don't pick permanet at 16, you lose the chance to get forever (since losing the spell elixirs would be terrible no matter what build you're going for)

the other options are permanent mutagens (also not that great imo, but still has it's uses), +5 to 6 different skills+at will mass telepathy, bombs basically ignoring elemental resistance and etc

edit2:

so, making the maximized elixirs take the place of "potent elixirs" and making every infused elixir having Class DC from the get go, like every other class in the game has (imagine if spells had a DC based only on spell level, that's the state of alchemists atm) then it would be fine.

but level 16?... nope. not by a long shot worth it.

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