Can perception be added to like a skill?


Creating a Character


Can perception be added to like a skill?
If you have an extra skill during character creation can I invest that extra skill into perception and raise it up from expert to master?

Liberty's Edge

No, perception is not a Skill and cannot be advanced independently from Class Level.


where does it say that in the rules, respectfully?

Liberty's Edge

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Page 301-302 detail most of what you need to know, each class have various different starting levels of Perception Training, but you CAN take Skill Feats to improve your Perception to Expert although a quick search reveals that this seems to be the ONLY way to advance this Training outside of your Class.


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I feel like it's a bit silly for perception to be a completely independent stat, rather than a skill as it always was.


Oh, I thought you wanted to like your skills more.

I guess I misread that.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
sherlock1701 wrote:
I feel like it's a bit silly for perception to be a completely independent stat, rather than a skill as it always was.

It makes perfect sense since Perception was the number one must have skill that everyone invested in barring few exceptions.

If it’s a skill that everyone takes, that everyone has to take, it feels kinda odd keeping it lumped in with skills.


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Rysky wrote:
sherlock1701 wrote:
I feel like it's a bit silly for perception to be a completely independent stat, rather than a skill as it always was.

It makes perfect sense since Perception was the number one must have skill that everyone invested in barring few exceptions.

If it’s a skill that everyone takes, that everyone has to take, it feels kinda odd keeping it lumped in with skills.

It needs to be a skill so that it can be advanced like a skill up to legendary, and so you can have skill unlock feats for it.


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With the short supply of skills in the game, Perception does seem like it's less taxing by comparison.

The new initiative mechanic also seems to encourage other skill usage.


master_marshmallow wrote:

With the short supply of skills in the game, Perception does seem like it's less taxing by comparison.

The new initiative mechanic also seems to encourage other skill usage.

I agree, but I'm disappointed that there are virtually no ways to improve it. Most classes start trained or expert and there's 1 feat to raise it to expert. I think Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue are the only classes that ever see it rise to Master and Legendary and it happens automatically at set levels.

Grand Lodge

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Personally I'm glad perception isn't a skill anymore.

Skills are not a fundamental part of the characters abilities, they are like iceing on the cake. They look nice but dont improve the taste.

Having a skill like perception that is a "must have" makes no sense. It also made little sense in relation to its purpose. how can one learn to be more perceptive? I know perception was originally the attempt to reduce the number of skills by combining spot and listen into one but again the same argument stands, you cant really train someone to be better at seeing or hearing. People can be trained to look out for key things like a guard trained to spot poick pockets, a scout trained to find tracks or a rogue listening out for movement in the next room, but picking out details or listening for key sounds is different to what the general perception is about.

In the past there have been house rules and such that have added perception as a 7th stat which felt more balanced. In PF2, having Perception as a seperate mechanic (it basically replaces initiative) makes sense but what seems to confuse people is its connection to the skills proficiency system.

It would be nice to see more circumstance benefits to perception due to your skills, class or ancestry but I like that only certain classes can get to mastery+.


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The thing is that perception has also consumed sense motive, and classes that used to be strong at that like the paladin are now gonna lose out on what used to be a pretty important RP skill as well.

Perception covers more, but it's given less options.

Grand Lodge

But wasn't the reason paladins where good at sense motive was because it was a class skill and was wisdom based? same could be said for the cleric, no? That's not changed here. A paladin is good at perception due to wisdom by default so using perception to counter deception (Lie) makes them one of the best in PF2.
If I recall rangers where better against their favoured enemy and that's still a part of perception with hunt.

Sense motive was not exclusive to any specific class. and again isnt something you can teach really.

Unless I'm forgetting something about Paladins, they where only good at sense motive because of their other abilities to detect evil and detect lies.


Quijenoth wrote:

But wasn't the reason paladins where good at sense motive was because it was a class skill and was wisdom based? same could be said for the cleric, no? That's not changed here. A paladin is good at perception due to wisdom by default so using perception to counter deception (Lie) makes them one of the best in PF2.

If I recall rangers where better against their favoured enemy and that's still a part of perception with hunt.

Sense motive was not exclusive to any specific class. and again isnt something you can teach really.

Unless I'm forgetting something about Paladins, they where only good at sense motive because of their other abilities to detect evil and detect lies.

Since PF1, paladins had been charisma focused, WIS actually was a dump stat for them.

In PF2, the detect evil stuff is locked behind a feat, and I don't think you can take it until 8th level because of the level gating.


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Quijenoth wrote:

Personally I'm glad perception isn't a skill anymore.

Skills are not a fundamental part of the characters abilities, they are like iceing on the cake. They look nice but dont improve the taste.

Having a skill like perception that is a "must have" makes no sense. It also made little sense in relation to its purpose. how can one learn to be more perceptive? I know perception was originally the attempt to reduce the number of skills by combining spot and listen into one but again the same argument stands, you cant really train someone to be better at seeing or hearing. People can be trained to look out for key things like a guard trained to spot poick pockets, a scout trained to find tracks or a rogue listening out for movement in the next room, but picking out details or listening for key sounds is different to what the general perception is about.

In the past there have been house rules and such that have added perception as a 7th stat which felt more balanced. In PF2, having Perception as a seperate mechanic (it basically replaces initiative) makes sense but what seems to confuse people is its connection to the skills proficiency system.

It would be nice to see more circumstance benefits to perception due to your skills, class or ancestry but I like that only certain classes can get to mastery+.

Skills were never icing on the cake. They're a core part of your character build that dictates what you are and are not good at aside from casting/fighting.


What's interesting to me is that "does your class care about wisdom" is going to have as big an effect on "how perceptive you are" as proficiency. Like everybody's going to end up with an 18 eventually, most likely but the additional +2 that the druid and cleric get from boosting Wis to 22 (or higher with magic items) is going to balance out how other people can become masters of perception, and the alertness feat will balance out legendary.

Grand Lodge

master_marshmallow wrote:

Since PF1, paladins had been charisma focused, WIS actually was a dump stat for them.

In PF2, the detect evil stuff is locked behind a feat, and I don't think you can take it until 8th level because of the level gating.

So where does your " Paladins are strong in sense motive " argument come from then? if its related to detect evil that has nothing to do with sense motive as a skill.

sherlock1701 wrote:
Skills were never icing on the cake. They're a core part of your character build that dictates what you are and are not good at aside from casting/fighting.

With the exception of rogues I have to disagree. While skills have become an intricate part of the rules, the core concept of the game (based on the original AD&D) never even had a skill system. It wasn't until 2nd edition non-weapon proficiency list came in to help flesh out characters backgrounds. This evolved into the skill system of 3rd edition. The clunky rogue "open locks/pick locks" table was the only thing that benefited from the port into a skill system.

Casting/fighting are the backbone of encounters, you couldn't "win" an encounter with skills alone unless the encounter was non-combat like negotiating a dangerous rope bridge.

Yes systems as they evolve find new ways to link skills to encounters. PF2 's use of hazards are an ingeneous way to mix skills into an encounter for example. but the skills of 3.5 where still a choice. If they where core, everyone should be able to do them all, but they can't.
Thats why people choose the ones that will get used the most over "fluff" skills and why perception has now been removed from the skill system because its "THAT" important. I mentioned before in another post about diplomacy/gather information/bluff/sense motive etc. how useful are they in a campaign set on a deserted island populated by dinosaurs? Over time fluff skills have gained combat uses (feint for example) to try and entice people to take ranks in those skills.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
the additional +2 that the druid and cleric get from boosting Wis to 22 (or higher with magic items) is going to balance out how other people can become masters of perception, and the alertness feat will balance out legendary.

Wait.

Why does this need to be "balanced" so that everyone has the same end score?


Dudewut?

Paladins had it as a class skill so they had a strong base.

They weren't based on WIS for spell casting...


Draco18s wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
the additional +2 that the druid and cleric get from boosting Wis to 22 (or higher with magic items) is going to balance out how other people can become masters of perception, and the alertness feat will balance out legendary.

Wait.

Why does this need to be "balanced" so that everyone has the same end score?

What I'm saying is that you don't need to do much to make your druid the best spotter in the party, even if they don't advance perception proficiency naturally. If everybody could just "invest skill ranks in perception" considering how important +1s are in this math the most perceptive classes would automatically be the cleric and druid with some monks coming in third, whereas based on the flavor text one would imagine rangers and rogues should be the best at it.

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