paizo.com Recent Posts in Power Attackpaizo.com Recent Posts in Power Attack2018-09-11T17:54:18Z2018-09-11T17:54:18ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackVidmaster7https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#462018-09-13T04:08:05Z2018-09-13T04:08:05Z<p>So what have we decided. Is taking into account the weapon potency bonus what is necessary to make power attack suitable or was that to strong?</p>So what have we decided. Is taking into account the weapon potency bonus what is necessary to make power attack suitable or was that to strong?Vidmaster72018-09-13T04:08:05ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#452018-09-13T03:49:09Z2018-09-13T03:49:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ninja in the Rye wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.</p>
<p>I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn to figure out how much of a hit/damage ratio could kill the enemy the best. I much preferred PF1's straight upgrade to define the combat style. Once Unchained rolled out, TWF competed for the best weapon style in the game. </p>
<p>I want that depth back. </blockquote>What did Unchained do to make TWF the best weapon style in the game? </blockquote><p>It let you split a single action into two attacks, so you could move and still make multiple attacks. The damage added up to rival power attack once you realized you could use the feat every turn. Rogues got fixed instantly, as Improved Feint became tactically viable while you could still move and strike with both weapons.Ninja in the Rye wrote:master_marshmallow wrote:If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.
I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn...master_marshmallow2018-09-13T03:49:09ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackNinja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#442018-09-13T03:19:39Z2018-09-13T03:19:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.</p>
<p>I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn to figure out how much of a hit/damage ratio could kill the enemy the best. I much preferred PF1's straight upgrade to define the combat style. Once Unchained rolled out, TWF competed for the best weapon style in the game. </p>
<p>I want that depth back. </blockquote><p>What did Unchained do to make TWF the best weapon style in the game?master_marshmallow wrote:If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.
I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn to figure out how much...Ninja in the Rye2018-09-13T03:19:39ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#432018-09-13T02:36:35Z2018-09-13T02:36:35Z<p>If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.</p>
<p>I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn to figure out how much of a hit/damage ratio could kill the enemy the best. I much preferred PF1's straight upgrade to define the combat style. Once Unchained rolled out, TWF competed for the best weapon style in the game. </p>
<p>I want that depth back.</p>If I take a feat that defines my combat style, then I wanna use it. They seem to be trying this with stances but it feels too clunky and unintuitive.
I get some feats are meant to cover your ass in weird situations. But the ones that are meant to identify how I attack with my weapon should not over complicate the already complex turn. It's one of the better upgrades from 3.5 to PF1 where in the former you had to play a guessing game every turn to figure out how much of a hit/damage ratio...master_marshmallow2018-09-13T02:36:35ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackUltimatecaliburhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#422018-09-13T02:26:50Z2018-09-13T02:26:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote>That would bring back the full round argument. Power Attack needs to be better than just making two attacks. </blockquote><p>Not always better. It should be the better option in enough situations that it is not considered niche but not so many that it gets constantly spammed.
<p>I don't think being an open action really helps Power Attack and unnecessarily hurts it. I also kinda wish it had a "Finisher" benefit (i.e. something like only costing one action if made with a -8 or worse MAP).</p>master_marshmallow wrote:That would bring back the full round argument. Power Attack needs to be better than just making two attacks.
Not always better. It should be the better option in enough situations that it is not considered niche but not so many that it gets constantly spammed. I don't think being an open action really helps Power Attack and unnecessarily hurts it. I also kinda wish it had a "Finisher" benefit (i.e. something like only costing one action if made with a -8 or worse MAP).Ultimatecalibur2018-09-13T02:26:50ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#412018-09-13T00:25:10Z2018-09-13T00:25:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Previloc wrote:</div><blockquote> Power Attack is more versatile (it and Sudden Charge are the only lvl1 Fighter Feats usable with Polearms - both are usable with any melee loadout), and might not do the DR niche better than Double Slice (depends on AC). Perhaps simply dropping the 'counts as 2 attacks for MAP' would be enough. </blockquote><p>That would bring back the full round argument. Power Attack needs to be better than just making two attacks.Previloc wrote:Power Attack is more versatile (it and Sudden Charge are the only lvl1 Fighter Feats usable with Polearms - both are usable with any melee loadout), and might not do the DR niche better than Double Slice (depends on AC). Perhaps simply dropping the 'counts as 2 attacks for MAP' would be enough.
That would bring back the full round argument. Power Attack needs to be better than just making two attacks.master_marshmallow2018-09-13T00:25:10ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackPrevilochttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#402018-09-13T00:09:59Z2018-09-13T00:09:59Z<p>Power Attack is more versatile (it and Sudden Charge are the only lvl1 Fighter Feats usable with Polearms - both are usable with any melee loadout), and might not do the DR niche better than Double Slice (depends on AC). Perhaps simply dropping the 'counts as 2 attacks for MAP' would be enough.</p>Power Attack is more versatile (it and Sudden Charge are the only lvl1 Fighter Feats usable with Polearms - both are usable with any melee loadout), and might not do the DR niche better than Double Slice (depends on AC). Perhaps simply dropping the 'counts as 2 attacks for MAP' would be enough.Previloc2018-09-13T00:09:59ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#392018-09-12T17:04:24Z2018-09-12T17:04:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Data Lore wrote:</div><blockquote><p> They do have weapon techniques though - those live in weapon properties and critical specialization effects. </p>
<p>It could just be nomenclature and folks' expectations based on previous play experiences. If they called it "Penetrating Strike" and added in some DR piercing, most people would be fine with it, I think. </blockquote><p>Yes there are those things, and I want more of them. I want Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, TWF, and all the other combat identity feats to be absorbed straight into weapon proficiency.
<p>If weapon proficiency scaled to include these tactics as well as crit specialization then the system would be robust and offer many free choices which leads to more customization.</p>
<p>It would also mean something like Power Attack wouldn't need too much of a change to really make it matter, but having it as a feat that isn't very useful given the damage curves compared to the rate at which resistance grows isn't helping the feat's case.</p>
<p>I <b>really</b> want the weapons section to be expanded and include the combat techniques. Then no one gets feat taxed unless they want to spend feats to improve their weapon proficiency, and then weapon proficiency becomes a very good feat to take. It would also make the racial weapon feats seem much better, because they have expanded lists which would mean you get access to more styles with varied weapons instead of needing to invest into entire feat lines which tax all your choices away.</p>Data Lore wrote:They do have weapon techniques though - those live in weapon properties and critical specialization effects.
It could just be nomenclature and folks' expectations based on previous play experiences. If they called it "Penetrating Strike" and added in some DR piercing, most people would be fine with it, I think.
Yes there are those things, and I want more of them. I want Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, TWF, and all the other combat identity feats to be absorbed straight into...master_marshmallow2018-09-12T17:04:24ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#382018-09-12T16:44:22Z2018-09-12T16:44:22Z<p>They do have weapon techniques though - those live in weapon properties and critical specialization effects. </p>
<p>It could just be nomenclature and folks' expectations based on previous play experiences. If they called it "Penetrating Strike" and added in some DR piercing, most people would be fine with it, I think.</p>They do have weapon techniques though - those live in weapon properties and critical specialization effects.
It could just be nomenclature and folks' expectations based on previous play experiences. If they called it "Penetrating Strike" and added in some DR piercing, most people would be fine with it, I think.Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T16:44:22ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#372018-09-12T16:38:50Z2018-09-12T16:38:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Data Lore wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Then maybe the issue is the rarity of the niche. So enemy design rather than the feat itself. •shrug•</p>
<p>Either way, whatever solution Paizo comes up with, it shouldn't be to make a fighter spam button.</p>
<p>•Edit• Piercing resistances might be a neat idea. How much exactly would be tricky. Maybe something like 5 points when you first get it and 10 points when it grants you an additional die at fighter 10? On the plus side, that would expand the usefulness of the feat to sword and board users. </blockquote><p>I think the issue comes from the identity of the feats being that certain feats exist to identify a style or method that defines how the character fights normally. Power Attack is one of those feats that clearly has (or had rather) the identity which enshrined what it meant to use a big two-handed weapon effectively.
<p>It just so happened that before Unchained came out, it was the mathematically best style. In PF1 it also had the least amount of feat investment required so it didn't tax the characters much, which is another reason it was used so much on any build that wasn't a ranger or fighter. Even then it was still used the most often for melee.</p>
<p>Honestly the more I read into the design goals and desires of the devs to get away from needing feats like this (and I've been spouting this all over the boards) I think it would be better for options like Power Attack to not exist as feats at all, but rather to include weapon techniques into the weapon traits themselves, and enhance them with proficiency. If combat styles were defined by how well you can use the weapons you have rather than how you spend your feats then the feats can be used for things like niche powers that would otherwise be situational, but wouldn't interfere in your capacity to demonstrate the style of combat that is meant to identify your character's strengths.</p>
<p>Similar to how the different skills have breakdowns of the different actions that can be taken in combat, old combat feats could be absorbed into weapon qualities/categories and gated by proficiency for access. Then they don't have to re-write all these feats for every class and the feats you do take can be the class specific upgrades resembling the class features from before.</p>Data Lore wrote:Then maybe the issue is the rarity of the niche. So enemy design rather than the feat itself. *shrug*
Either way, whatever solution Paizo comes up with, it shouldn't be to make a fighter spam button.
*Edit* Piercing resistances might be a neat idea. How much exactly would be tricky. Maybe something like 5 points when you first get it and 10 points when it grants you an additional die at fighter 10? On the plus side, that would expand the usefulness of the feat to sword and...master_marshmallow2018-09-12T16:38:50ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#362018-09-12T16:14:26Z2018-09-12T15:45:48Z<p>Then maybe the issue is the rarity of the niche. So enemy design rather than the feat itself. •shrug•</p>
<p>Either way, whatever solution Paizo comes up with, it shouldn't be to make a fighter spam button.</p>
<p>•Edit• Piercing resistances might be a neat idea. How much exactly would be tricky. Maybe something like 5 points when you first get it and 10 points when it grants you an additional die at fighter 10? On the plus side, that would expand the usefulness of the feat to sword and board users.</p>Then maybe the issue is the rarity of the niche. So enemy design rather than the feat itself. *shrug*
Either way, whatever solution Paizo comes up with, it shouldn't be to make a fighter spam button.
*Edit* Piercing resistances might be a neat idea. How much exactly would be tricky. Maybe something like 5 points when you first get it and 10 points when it grants you an additional die at fighter 10? On the plus side, that would expand the usefulness of the feat to sword and board users.Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T15:45:48ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#352018-09-12T15:44:00Z2018-09-12T15:44:00Z<p>In fact if that is by design it's niche... then let it also pierce resistances. Make it actually good at it's niche & also clear to someone who isn't running simulators/spreadsheets that it's intended for that purpose rather than scratching their head going "so is that more or less damage?"</p>In fact if that is by design it's niche... then let it also pierce resistances. Make it actually good at it's niche & also clear to someone who isn't running simulators/spreadsheets that it's intended for that purpose rather than scratching their head going "so is that more or less damage?"Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T15:44:00ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#342018-09-12T15:36:22Z2018-09-12T15:36:22Z<p>My numbers are based on 1,000,000 simulated rounds at each level against each AC from 10 to 47. Crits were taken into account fully & I ran the simulations a few times to make sure the 1,000,000 was sufficient to even out randomness. External factors were not but most like flanking or buffs or assists actually skew it the other way by lowering the enemy AC so you actually have to find something CR+5/+6 if you can count on flanks or buffs reliably.</p>
<p>I'm fine with a niche feat, but if it's niche it should be good in it's niche commensurate to the rarity of the niche. Averaging 3-4 more DPR against specifically enemies with 10 resistance but only if you're able to identify the DR to know... or an increase against enemies which if you knew it applied you'd have known you should run anyway... that's way too weak.</p>My numbers are based on 1,000,000 simulated rounds at each level against each AC from 10 to 47. Crits were taken into account fully & I ran the simulations a few times to make sure the 1,000,000 was sufficient to even out randomness. External factors were not but most like flanking or buffs or assists actually skew it the other way by lowering the enemy AC so you actually have to find something CR+5/+6 if you can count on flanks or buffs reliably.
I'm fine with a niche feat, but if it's...Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T15:36:22ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#332018-09-12T15:24:52Z2018-09-12T15:24:52Z<p>They have stated they want the Fighter to be a sort of "martial wizard" who has lots of tools in the toolbox for various situations. If you just want to be more rawr-smash, I think thats more the Barbarian's bag the way its designed.</p>
<p>That being said, I would argue the niche feats do indeed model a character who is better trained with thier weapons. The combat grab line absolutely exemplifies this but the 2H and TWF lines are similarly varied and have feats that you would not use round after round. But, by loading up on them, I think you are meant to switch between heavy hits, fast hits, parries and the like.</p>They have stated they want the Fighter to be a sort of "martial wizard" who has lots of tools in the toolbox for various situations. If you just want to be more rawr-smash, I think thats more the Barbarian's bag the way its designed.
That being said, I would argue the niche feats do indeed model a character who is better trained with thier weapons. The combat grab line absolutely exemplifies this but the 2H and TWF lines are similarly varied and have feats that you would not use round after...Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T15:24:52ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power Attackmaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#322018-09-13T04:45:56Z2018-09-12T15:20:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Data Lore wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Not sure I see eye to eye with that math especially when you factor in crit chance and the like. This is doubly true when you consider that major threats may often be outside the typical level range and may increase the value of a feat like this.</p>
<p>Anywho, while I agree the feat could use a little love, I am firmly in the camp of not wanting one ability to be a fighter's (even a 2H fighter's) overwhelmingly default spam option in every combat. </p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with a feat being niche especially when you consider how many feats martials get (especially fighters with their flexibility class abilities) and the ability to retrain. </blockquote><p>No one likes niche feats.
</p>
I want my feats to show that I'm better at using my chosen weapon style better, to represent the fact that I've trained that technique.</p>
<p>Niche situational abilities are better as spells. Feats are permanent (or semi now) and their utility needs to be there or the feat will never get taken.</p>Data Lore wrote:Not sure I see eye to eye with that math especially when you factor in crit chance and the like. This is doubly true when you consider that major threats may often be outside the typical level range and may increase the value of a feat like this.
Anywho, while I agree the feat could use a little love, I am firmly in the camp of not wanting one ability to be a fighter's (even a 2H fighter's) overwhelmingly default spam option in every combat.
There is nothing wrong with a...master_marshmallow2018-09-12T15:20:51ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#312018-09-12T15:13:39Z2018-09-12T15:13:39Z<p>Not sure I see eye to eye with that math especially when you factor in crit chance and the like. This is doubly true when you consider that major threats may often be outside the typical level range and may increase the value of a feat like this.</p>
<p>Anywho, while I agree the feat could use a little love, I am firmly in the camp of not wanting one ability to be a fighter's (even a 2H fighter's) overwhelmingly default spam option in every combat. </p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with a feat being niche especially when you consider how many feats martials get (especially fighters with their flexibility class abilities) and the ability to retrain.</p>Not sure I see eye to eye with that math especially when you factor in crit chance and the like. This is doubly true when you consider that major threats may often be outside the typical level range and may increase the value of a feat like this.
Anywho, while I agree the feat could use a little love, I am firmly in the camp of not wanting one ability to be a fighter's (even a 2H fighter's) overwhelmingly default spam option in every combat.
There is nothing wrong with a feat being niche...Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T15:13:39ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#302019-01-31T12:41:25Z2018-09-12T15:05:10Z<p>It's actually not good against high AC enemies though. It's good on a narrow niche of 15 to 18ish to hit (varies slightly by level but it's typically negative or negligible outside this).</p>
<p>It's incredibly rare to find any level appropriate enemy in that range. When I went looking in the bestiary I took a few sample levels and the highest I found was 12 (admittedly didn't check all levels, just a few to sample). This basically means CR+3 enemies, which means only single enemy severe difficulty encounters that happen to also be one of the highest AC enemies & that you can actually work out have such a high AC... Talk about niche!</p>It's actually not good against high AC enemies though. It's good on a narrow niche of 15 to 18ish to hit (varies slightly by level but it's typically negative or negligible outside this).
It's incredibly rare to find any level appropriate enemy in that range. When I went looking in the bestiary I took a few sample levels and the highest I found was 12 (admittedly didn't check all levels, just a few to sample). This basically means CR+3 enemies, which means only single enemy severe difficulty...Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T15:05:10ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#292018-09-12T15:01:03Z2018-09-12T14:56:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tim Schneider 908 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Perhaps it is meant to only barely break even against enemies with at least 5 DR on it's better levels and take at least 10 DR to get an appreciable bonus - that would make it a very lacklustre feat though. Especially when most enemies have shifted to weaknesses (which it's even worse against).</p>
<p>The 2 action aspect is already somewhat situational. It doesn't also have to eat 20% of your damage in the vast majority of encounters. Enemies with weaknesses are another example of where it's woefully bad but at least that's one an average person can understand without a spreadsheet or simulator. </blockquote><p>Its also more valuable against high AC opponents where MAP would severely reduce your chance to hit (even with Furious Focus).
<p>So, high DR and/or high AC enemies, smash them with a strong first hit. Other stuff, lean on Furious Focus.</p>
<p>I guess I just don't see a problem. I agree it could use a small boost (see my original post) but people assuming they should be able to spam this one thing from 1 all the way to 20 seem to be missing the core design of the PF2E fighter.</p>Tim Schneider 908 wrote:Perhaps it is meant to only barely break even against enemies with at least 5 DR on it's better levels and take at least 10 DR to get an appreciable bonus - that would make it a very lacklustre feat though. Especially when most enemies have shifted to weaknesses (which it's even worse against).
The 2 action aspect is already somewhat situational. It doesn't also have to eat 20% of your damage in the vast majority of encounters. Enemies with weaknesses are another...Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T14:56:45ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#282018-09-12T14:55:42Z2018-09-12T14:55:42Z<p>Actually it's quite a nice bonus at level 1 - nothing huge, only a few percentage point increase, but at least a bonus against anything up to AC 26 (which you shouldn't fight at level 1). It's not til magic weapons it actually becomes a negative.</p>Actually it's quite a nice bonus at level 1 - nothing huge, only a few percentage point increase, but at least a bonus against anything up to AC 26 (which you shouldn't fight at level 1). It's not til magic weapons it actually becomes a negative.Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T14:55:42ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#272018-09-12T14:46:52Z2018-09-12T14:46:52Z<p>Doomsday Dawn has 5 DR (pierce/slash) enemies at level 1.</p>Doomsday Dawn has 5 DR (pierce/slash) enemies at level 1.Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T14:46:52ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackThatGuyStevehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#262019-01-31T12:40:59Z2018-09-12T14:35:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Data Lore wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Maybe the ability is not meant to be used in all combats. Instead, it may be more situational (high dr enemies, for example). Fighter does also get Furious Focus.</p>
<p>If you are just meant to spam one thing, would be pretty boring. </blockquote><p>How many level 1 enemies have DR? When you only have 1 class feat you want to be able to make use of it right away, not wait for it to be effective at higher levels.
<p>Point blank shout fighter and double slice fighter will be using their feats every fight without doubt.</p>Data Lore wrote:Maybe the ability is not meant to be used in all combats. Instead, it may be more situational (high dr enemies, for example). Fighter does also get Furious Focus.
If you are just meant to spam one thing, would be pretty boring.
How many level 1 enemies have DR? When you only have 1 class feat you want to be able to make use of it right away, not wait for it to be effective at higher levels. Point blank shout fighter and double slice fighter will be using their feats every...ThatGuySteve2018-09-12T14:35:47ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#252018-09-12T14:35:18Z2018-09-12T14:32:09Z<p>Perhaps it is meant to only barely break even against enemies with at least 5 DR on it's better levels and take at least 10 DR to get an appreciable bonus - that would make it a very lacklustre feat though. Especially when most enemies have shifted to weaknesses (which it's even worse against).</p>
<p>The 2 action aspect is already somewhat situational. It doesn't also have to eat 20% of your damage in the vast majority of encounters. Enemies with weaknesses are another example of where it's woefully bad but at least that's one an average person can understand without a spreadsheet or simulator.</p>Perhaps it is meant to only barely break even against enemies with at least 5 DR on it's better levels and take at least 10 DR to get an appreciable bonus - that would make it a very lacklustre feat though. Especially when most enemies have shifted to weaknesses (which it's even worse against).
The 2 action aspect is already somewhat situational. It doesn't also have to eat 20% of your damage in the vast majority of encounters. Enemies with weaknesses are another example of where it's...Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T14:32:09ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackData Lore (alias of Datalore)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#242018-09-12T14:23:35Z2018-09-12T14:22:26Z<p>Maybe the ability is not meant to be used in all combats. Instead, it may be more situational (high dr enemies, for example). Fighter does also get Furious Focus.</p>
<p>If you are just meant to spam one thing, would be pretty boring.</p>Maybe the ability is not meant to be used in all combats. Instead, it may be more situational (high dr enemies, for example). Fighter does also get Furious Focus.
If you are just meant to spam one thing, would be pretty boring.Data Lore (alias of Datalore)2018-09-12T14:22:26ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackTim Schneider 908https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#232018-09-12T14:20:19Z2018-09-12T14:12:20Z<p>Having ran the math, power attack from level 5 up (first magic weapon) is currently typically about a 0 to 18% dpr reduction over just taking two swings against enemies you need a 10 to hit (which is about things at your CR). It varies by level, but it's basically universally a reduction in damage unless either you need a 15 to hit or the enemy has resistance.</p>
<p>I've never even looked at double strike, just power attack vs use both actions to Strike. Have also done the math with true strike on the first swing which is still not enough to make power attack have a positive effect on dpr.</p>
<p>With your change power attack would be a tiny (1-2 dpr) increase at levels 10-12 and still a negative for 5-9 and 13-20.</p>
<p>And yeah, in the suggestion I made a +2 d12 weapon would power attack for 6d12 instead of 4d12 (or 5d12 for level 10+) by the current one. This is possibly a touch too strong, but it's the only non-convoluted fix I could think of. Maybe a minor accuracy hit could help narrow in on what they consider an appropriate power increase for a level 1 feat but magic items have such an impact on the math that any model not considering them has huge effectiveness spikes when magic damage kicks in. This resulted in a fairly stable bonus across the levels (as a % of average dpr) which is something you can balance from to find the % you want.</p>Having ran the math, power attack from level 5 up (first magic weapon) is currently typically about a 0 to 18% dpr reduction over just taking two swings against enemies you need a 10 to hit (which is about things at your CR). It varies by level, but it's basically universally a reduction in damage unless either you need a 15 to hit or the enemy has resistance.
I've never even looked at double strike, just power attack vs use both actions to Strike. Have also done the math with true strike on...Tim Schneider 9082018-09-12T14:12:20ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Power AttackVidmaster7https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429kl?Power-Attack#222018-09-12T11:18:43Z2018-09-12T11:18:43Z<p>Hmm interesting. You might be right double slice does seem pretty good.</p>Hmm interesting. You might be right double slice does seem pretty good.Vidmaster72018-09-12T11:18:43Z