Errata 1.2 is out


General Discussion


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http://com.paizo.downloads.watermarked.s3.amazonaws.com/139110/v5748aid7vrg w/v5748btpya25i/PathfinderPlaytestRulebookUpdatesPDF.zip

If that link doesn't work for people which it probably wont.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest#downloads

The 1.2 Errata dropped today.

*Signature Skills are gone. Ass classes get one trained skill for "free" before they select their X+Int skills. This results in most classes getting an additional skill or two.

*Multiclass feats no longer have a skill requirement, but grant that classes main skill.

*Fixed Taking damage while dying.

*Soothe is now 30ft.

*Frightened specifically affects AC.

*Dragon Totem has been toned down.

*Bards have a 10th level spell feat for 20th level.


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Thanks for the heads-up!

Didn't Paizo say at some point that once you downloaded an update, you'd automatically get email announcements of all further updates? I didn't get one for either 1.1 or 1.2. Maybe I dreamed it.


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Zman0 wrote:


*Dragon Totem has been toned down.

Toned down? breath changed to 1/rage with half effect if used in the last hour from 1/hour. That is better.

Dragon Transformation Now uses your ac and attack, and gets an extra weapon die and can now be dismissed.

That seems like all positives (barbarians need all the love they can get.


also animal totems can now use weapons, just not while raging (aka, dont rage and use a bow on ranged encounters so you can now participate) and superstition gets a 1/hour healing effect.


rayous brightblade wrote:
Zman0 wrote:


*Dragon Totem has been toned down.

Toned down? breath changed to 1/rage with half effect if used in the last hour from 1/hour. That is better.

Dragon Transformation Now uses your ac and attack, and gets an extra weapon die and can now be dismissed.

That seems like all positives (barbarians need all the love they can get.

And that is what I get for my quick read and rushing to get back to work.

Thanks. Now I wish we had a long term edit function on our posts.


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I think we might be moving in the right direction.


My alchemist got two more skills, so I'm happy to get a little buff. Not surprised to see anything in the resonance department, since it looks like paizo is working pn tweaking the whole system


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up!

Didn't Paizo say at some point that once you downloaded an update, you'd automatically get email announcements of all further updates? I didn't get one for either 1.1 or 1.2. Maybe I dreamed it.

I don't know if they said that or not. However, it's worth checking you have that setting enabled:

Go to your "My Account" page and scroll down to the bottom left. There's a privacy settings sidebar and I suspect you'll need the 'digital content updates' checkbox ticked.

Having said that, this may not technically be an update if it's a brand new file, so that might not work.

I expect it's a necessary condition, although perhaps not sufficient.


Superstition got a buff, but it still only looks playable if a 15 minute adventuring day is truly the expected norm. :\ Even with an alchemist pumping out elixirs of life, the barbarian just isn't ever going to regain enough HP to keep in fighting shape unless battles are spaced quite far apart from each other.

(Also, lawl, you're only expected to have enough gold to buy two potions of moderate healing. That'll restore, at best, about 4/5ths of your HP...)


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up!

Didn't Paizo say at some point that once you downloaded an update, you'd automatically get email announcements of all further updates? I didn't get one for either 1.1 or 1.2. Maybe I dreamed it.

I don't know if they said that or not. However, it's worth checking you have that setting enabled:

Go to your "My Account" page and scroll down to the bottom left. There's a privacy settings sidebar and I suspect you'll need the 'digital content updates' checkbox ticked.

Good point, but it looks like I do have it enabled.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Having said that, this may not technically be an update if it's a brand new file, so that might not work.

Also a good point. Looks like it shows up in My Downloads as a single entry, "Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook Updates," so I'd think it'd qualify.

I think I'll post about it under Website Feedback.


What does Dread Striker do now? Is it there specifically to allow sneak attack? The penalties don't stack so it seems like a weird interaction.

Scarab Sages

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Signature Skills are gone? Good. That alone is a huge step in the right direction. Now we just need to do a few feat updates, maybe change ancestry feat acquisition around a tiny bit, and give more options for playing support characters of ALL classes, and we'll be in business.


master_marshmallow wrote:
What does Dread Striker do now? Is it there specifically to allow sneak attack? The penalties don't stack so it seems like a weird interaction.

Why don't the penalties stack?

flat footed:
You take a –2 circumstance penalty to AC.

frightened:
You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to...

is there something I'm missing about stacking penalties?


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Davor wrote:
Signature Skills are gone? Good. That alone is a huge step in the right direction. Now we just need to do a few feat updates, maybe change ancestry feat acquisition around a tiny bit, and give more options for playing support characters of ALL classes, and we'll be in business.

All that's left, really, is to: remove the class-locked feats for generic abilities everyone should have, fix initiative and perception so the rogue isn't the worst character at them, dial back some of the magic over-nerfs, tweak the monster stats so they all are not +2 higher than the PC's at everything, drop the fussy exploration mode rules, fix the mess that is figuring out DC's for things, make ancestries logical, make backgrounds interesting and inspiring, make someone other than the cleric good at healing, figure out what can be done with the 3-action system so that every enemy including L0 ones can't triple-attack every round and swarm PC's to death, make the critical success/failure system less swingy and not as heavily biased towards monsters, stop treating basic class features as optional feats, fix Assurance and/or bring back taking 10 and 20, fix proficiency levels to have meaningful differences, make the dying rules less complicated, make the time to identify magic items reasonable, make familiars make sense, fix the Alchemist, update the

Exception in thread "ERRATA 1.2 IS OUT" paizo.forum.StackOverflowError

Sovereign Court

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1.2 wrote:

Updates that are new to this document have their

page references marked with bold text.

Is it me or is the boldface very hard to make out in this font?


I find that I need to enlarge the text on my phone to see the bold mode clearly. It's acceptable on the PC.

Scarab Sages

Aboleth Sticks wrote:
Davor wrote:
Signature Skills are gone? Good. That alone is a huge step in the right direction. Now we just need to do a few feat updates, maybe change ancestry feat acquisition around a tiny bit, and give more options for playing support characters of ALL classes, and we'll be in business.

All that's left, really, is to: remove the class-locked feats for generic abilities everyone should have, fix initiative and perception so the rogue isn't the worst character at them, dial back some of the magic over-nerfs, tweak the monster stats so they all are not +2 higher than the PC's at everything, drop the fussy exploration mode rules, fix the mess that is figuring out DC's for things, make ancestries logical, make backgrounds interesting and inspiring, make someone other than the cleric good at healing, figure out what can be done with the 3-action system so that every enemy including L0 ones can't triple-attack every round and swarm PC's to death, make the critical success/failure system less swingy and not as heavily biased towards monsters, stop treating basic class features as optional feats, fix Assurance and/or bring back taking 10 and 20, fix proficiency levels to have meaningful differences, make the dying rules less complicated, make the time to identify magic items reasonable, make familiars make sense, fix the Alchemist, update the

Exception in thread "ERRATA 1.2 IS OUT" paizo.forum.StackOverflowError

My point was not that those were the only things that needed fixing, but that once those major issues are sorted (updating feats, which you mentioned, giving all classes better supportive options [other classes good at healing, which you mentioned], and making ancestry a bit less fiddly, which you mentioned), the game will be a much better state. Yes, a lot of small issues are still present, but I called out what I believe are the biggest barriers atm. We don't want a huge list of complaints. Let's focus on big picture stuff first.


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Looks like it also fixed the issue with animal companions so that once they are nimble or savage their attacks count as magical. They also fixed the bag of holding issue that hurt my brain. Now a bag of holding would be really nice for an alchemist instead of something they would avoid like a plague.


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Now that Signature skills are gone, here's hoping that deity skills get another look over. I remember paizo saying that a deity couldn't grant Diplomacy because Clerics already had it as a Signature skill - but now that's no longer a restriction since Clerics only get Religion + their Deity's skill as trained by default.


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Aboleth Sticks wrote:
Davor wrote:
Signature Skills are gone? Good. That alone is a huge step in the right direction. Now we just need to do a few feat updates, maybe change ancestry feat acquisition around a tiny bit, and give more options for playing support characters of ALL classes, and we'll be in business.

All that's left, really, is to: remove the class-locked feats for generic abilities everyone should have, fix initiative and perception so the rogue isn't the worst character at them, dial back some of the magic over-nerfs, tweak the monster stats so they all are not +2 higher than the PC's at everything, drop the fussy exploration mode rules, fix the mess that is figuring out DC's for things, make ancestries logical, make backgrounds interesting and inspiring, make someone other than the cleric good at healing, figure out what can be done with the 3-action system so that every enemy including L0 ones can't triple-attack every round and swarm PC's to death, make the critical success/failure system less swingy and not as heavily biased towards monsters, stop treating basic class features as optional feats, fix Assurance and/or bring back taking 10 and 20, fix proficiency levels to have meaningful differences, make the dying rules less complicated, make the time to identify magic items reasonable, make familiars make sense, fix the Alchemist, update the

Exception in thread "ERRATA 1.2 IS OUT" paizo.forum.StackOverflowError

It could be expressed in a bit more polite/structured manner, but this post sums up pretty much all the things I think could be improved without going into hyperbole. Most of them aren't world changing, but will require some work without needing to mess with the basic game engine and I think they can be done by the release.


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Sanmei Long wrote:

Superstition got a buff, but it still only looks playable if a 15 minute adventuring day is truly the expected norm. :\ Even with an alchemist pumping out elixirs of life, the barbarian just isn't ever going to regain enough HP to keep in fighting shape unless battles are spaced quite far apart from each other.

(Also, lawl, you're only expected to have enough gold to buy two potions of moderate healing. That'll restore, at best, about 4/5ths of your HP...)

Technically they actually only work if you don't have a 15 minute adventuring day. As their healing is 1/hour, the more hours you have the better it is. If you only have an encounter every 4 hours a 1st level superstitious barbarian w/16 con heals 32 damage between fights and has 4 temps for those fights as well.

The problem with them is dungeon crawls where you have several fights in 1 hour. Maybe if they got a bonus like add your barbarian level to natural and alchemical healing? Probably still not enough.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Charon Onozuka wrote:
Now that Signature skills are gone, here's hoping that deity skills get another look over. I remember paizo saying that a deity couldn't grant Diplomacy because Clerics already had it as a Signature skill - but now that's no longer a restriction since Clerics only get Religion + their Deity's skill as trained by default.

Good point, we will definitely take that look.


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rayous brightblade wrote:
Sanmei Long wrote:
Superstition got a buff, but it still only looks playable if a 15 minute adventuring day is truly the expected norm. :\ (snip)
Technically they actually only work if you don't have a 15 minute adventuring day.

I meant "still" as in "this doesn't add enough to make it viable outside of a short day, after which you rest and the barbarian periodically yells incoherently at the wall for 18 seconds while regenerating a paltry amount of health."

Man, that's going to make keeping watch and resting "fun!"

To make it viable in a proper adventuring day where encounters occur more often than once every several hours, I think it'd have to have Fast Healing or something equivalent at all times. :\


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There's an error in the update. They said to change the Barbarian's Dragon Transformation to:

“At 18th level, your fly Speed is accelerated 20, your
damage bonus increases to +12, your breath weapon DC
increases to 30, and you gain a +14 conditional bonus to
breath weapon damage.”

But that's what it was to begin with. Presumably what is should be is:

"Your battle form is Huge, your fly Speed is
accelerated 20, your attacks have 10-foot reach (15 if they
previously had 10), your
damage bonus increases to +12, your breath weapon DC
increases to 30, and you gain a +14 conditional bonus to
breath weapon damage."


Sanmei wrote:
rayous brightblade wrote:
Sanmei Long wrote:
Superstition got a buff, but it still only looks playable if a 15 minute adventuring day is truly the expected norm. :\ (snip)
Technically they actually only work if you don't have a 15 minute adventuring day.

I meant "still" as in "this doesn't add enough to make it viable outside of a short day, after which you rest and the barbarian periodically yells incoherently at the wall for 18 seconds while regenerating a paltry amount of health."

Man, that's going to make keeping watch and resting "fun!"

To make it viable in a proper adventuring day where encounters occur more often than once every several hours, I think it'd have to have Fast Healing or something equivalent at all times. :\

It's not paltry.

At 8, starting with just a 14 con, you heal just slightly more than a 4th level heal boosted by a level 7 staff of healing. (38 for the barb, 37.5 for the cleric with the staff)

Which should be about the top healing a cleric could provide outside of heal specific class feats.

That's a max level spell/hour.

And you also have vigor as your 3rd action each round if you're getting a pounding for round by round temp HPs.

Keep in mind, that with the system as it's set, Superstition Barbs get one of the most broken martial abilities at 14.

Now that 90% of martial damage comes from their magic weapons, sunder enchantment on them is bonkers.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Huh, that works well, if the magic user takes one hour to identify that magic item looted from the monster.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
Huh, that works well, if the magic user takes one hour to identify that magic item looted from the monster.

I'm waiting for the alchemist multi archetype as well (should be in the next updates) to see if it'll allow healing potions as well.


One minor issue with the update document is it still has the listings to change the Alchemist and Druid's number of skills, as well as bloodlines adding signature skills, while this was overridden by the skill changes earlier in the document. This could cause some confusion. So probably best to delete those, at least in the next version of the update doc.


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I know tricky tinker and awakened intellect were mostly there to give alchemists more signature skills, but I'd like to see some more similar feats for expanding out the alchemist's skills.

Perhaps something that allows the alchemist to use int instead of wis for medicine (scientific study vs learned wisdom) and to restore hp using combat medic 1/hour instead of 1/day on a target would help ease some of the healing issues, and gives people more apothecary type options


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
Now that Signature skills are gone, here's hoping that deity skills get another look over. I remember paizo saying that a deity couldn't grant Diplomacy because Clerics already had it as a Signature skill - but now that's no longer a restriction since Clerics only get Religion + their Deity's skill as trained by default.
Good point, we will definitely take that look.

Why not just go back to a class skills type of format.

You start with X number of skill trainings that you can pick from your class skills, skills from intelligence bonus can be any skill, making them a class skill for you.
When you hit level 5 you may become expert in any class skill, or trained in a non-class skill.
At 9 you can become master in any signature skill, or expert in non-class skills.
At 13 you can become legendary in a class skill or master in a non-class skill.
At 17 you can become legendary in any skill.

Everyone can eventually become legendary in any skill.
Certain classes can get it sooner.
Multiclass feats can give you 1 skill from their list to yours, except rogue which would give 2.

Seems like everyone wins.


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shroudb wrote:

It's not paltry.

At 8, starting with just a 14 con, you heal just slightly more than a 4th level heal boosted by a level 7 staff of healing. (38 for the barb, 37.5 for the cleric with the staff)

If one healing spell per hour were all any PC needed, that'd be great! Monsters only hit once per combat, right? -_-

Also I haven't checked what it looks like at higher levels, but a level 5 barbarian would only heal about 20% of their max HP each time and I suspect that'll decrease sharply as maximum HP outpaces their healing, which just means that the higher level the character (and consequently, the more damage monsters are assumed to be able to deal), the less viable they'll be.

Quote:
And you also have vigor as your 3rd action each round if you're getting a pounding for round by round temp HPs.

I did poke at this a bit and it looks like vigor up until the mid levels should absorb one average attack from a monster of your level, and afterwards gets outpaced by monster damage. It's never a bad use of an action as far as I can tell (especially if it stacks? I'm assuming it doesn't, but didn't actually see anything saying it wouldn't), but it's a stiff race against the kinds of damage monsters deal.

Quote:

Keep in mind, that with the system as it's set, Superstition Barbs get one of the most broken martial abilities at 14.

Now that 90% of martial damage comes from their magic weapons, sunder enchantment on them is bonkers.

That'll help for monsters which use magic items, for sure (assuming you connect). Looking at the bestiary for level 14 monsters, there are four critters, one of which uses magic weapons (and it has a nasty backup attack). You'd be reducing its damage from 3d8+14 with 2d8 persistent bleed to 1d10+7 with 2d6 fire and 1d8 persistent fire, or just causing it to fly out of reach and use its 4d8+4 damage missile with 2d8 persistent fire.

That persistent damage is liable to be a killer, since you can never get the flat check DC below 15, and that's if you're spending actions to do things like douse the fire or perform Medicine checks (though by that level you should be making the DC 15 check to do so automatically -- hell, the barbarian himself, even with 10 WIS, probably can't fail that check even without a single point in Medicine).

That's a problem of persistent damage, but it's going to hurt even more for the character who only heals as much as a single healing spell every hour. :\


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Davor wrote:
My point was not that those were the only things that needed fixing, but that once those major issues are sorted (updating feats, which you mentioned, giving all classes better supportive options [other classes good at healing, which you mentioned], and making ancestry a bit less fiddly, which you mentioned), the game will be a much better state. Yes, a lot of small issues are still present, but I called out what I believe are the biggest barriers atm. We don't want a huge list of complaints. Let's focus on big picture stuff first.

This game needs a lot of work. It is not going to be fixed with a few adjustments.

Right now it plays like a video game or a MUD. Combat comes out the worst because it is so terribly spammy, like someone is hitting the same key on their keyboard as fast as they can. Demoralize, Demoralize, Grapple! Trip, Trip, Grapple! Grapple, Attack, Attack! It's because all of these things are 1 action, and everyone gets three of them no matter their level. And then you have combatants scurrying all around the battlefield like insects. It's just silly.

And that's just combat. The more I play this thing, the less I like it. It combines the worst elements of 4E and MMOs into one package, then layers on a "let's kill the party!" mindset.


Yes, all the actions being mutually exclusive and separate seems to create the 'press this macro' feeling.

Feats like Quickdraw or Skirmish seem to make this worse instead of better.

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