From the Stream: Signature Skills are going the way of the dodo


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They discussed some things coming in the next update.
1) Signature skills are gone, bulk of the update will be about that
2) Soothe will gain range
3) cleric bonus spells will be adjusted so that none of them are divine

Very positive on the signature skills change.


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Signature skills going is a big shot in the arm for customisation across literally all characters, it's a great idea! Allows for more varied concepts without the "multiclassing" to have to get them.

Liberty's Edge

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Fantastic news!

This shows they are willing to rehaul systems that people don't like and/or are hard to justify.

I'm hoping this means all Classes can Train any Skill as long as they meet the normal level requirements.


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Wonderful. To all three, really.

Liberty's Edge

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They also announced that not in the next update but the update afterwards we are getting multiclass archetypes for the other 8 classes!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Frozen Yakman wrote:

3) cleric bonus spells will be adjusted so that none of them are divine

How do you mean? Like allowing Clerics to get domain spells that they couldn't get as normal spells?

Liberty's Edge

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Alchemaic wrote:
Frozen Yakman wrote:

3) cleric bonus spells will be adjusted so that none of them are divine

How do you mean? Like allowing Clerics to get domain spells that they couldn't get as normal spells?

Some domains gave spells that were already on the divine list so they actually got nothing


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Reads OP: Yaaaaas

lordredraven wrote:
They also announced that not in the next update but the update afterwards we are getting multiclass archetypes for the other 8 classes!

Yaaaas


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lordredraven wrote:
They also announced that not in the next update but the update afterwards we are getting multiclass archetypes for the other 8 classes!

Excuse me while I run around in circles in rampant celebration.

Paizo Employee Designer

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I did tell you guys a while back it would be significantly reduced and then Dan saw you guys asking in the stream and asked me "But how significantly does that mean when you say that it sounds like a lot?" and I said "Significantly reduced." I figured no one can say total removal is not a significant reduction ^_^


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lordredraven wrote:
They also announced that not in the next update but the update afterwards we are getting multiclass archetypes for the other 8 classes!

That's fantastic. I'm a huge fan.


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Hmm, interesting about the changes to signature skills, I do wonder how they will change it in the system they already have. Gaining signature skills out side your class was almost impossible {save for multi/prestige classing}, which could be limiting to a concept, more so if those skills were likely to be rank dependant, say for example Thievery. (Although I have also found the very limited skill increases to also be a bit of a problem to this.) I'm for greater options in character concepts, both in gameplay and roleplay.

The question becomes, how will they adjust from the system they already have. {As in will a character still gain some sort of benefit from choosing a skill in there class.) or will it be done away with entirely? And on a more fringe note will they change the "Skill Mastery" feat from the Rouge muti-class. One of the benefits, was to make a skill signature for you, provided it was a skill on the Rouges list.)

Also loving Sooth getting range. Now Bards won't have to rely on Soothing Ballad if they want to do some decent healing.


Mark Seifter wrote:
I did tell you guys a while back it would be significantly reduced and then Dan saw you guys asking in the stream and asked me "But how significantly does that mean when you say that it sounds like a lot?" and I said "Significantly reduced." I figured no one can say total removal is not a significant reduction ^_^

Definition:

sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy.

Seems like that counts!


Mark Seifter wrote:
I did tell you guys a while back it would be significantly reduced and then Dan saw you guys asking in the stream and asked me "But how significantly does that mean when you say that it sounds like a lot?" and I said "Significantly reduced." I figured no one can say total removal is not a significant reduction ^_^

Can't argue with that logic.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Very very happy that you guys aren't afraid to make big changes DURING the playtest adventure timeline. Gives people a chance to give feedback on the changes!


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This is nice to see. The classes are too straight-jacketed as is.


Hooray! Now my monk, whose ki powers are occult spells, no longer has a higher potential in religion than occultism.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is an excellent change, but we still need at least more trained skills at character creation for the martial classes.


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Shisumo wrote:
This is an excellent change, but we still need at least more trained skills at character creation for the martial classes.

I have to imagine that even though signature skills are gone, we still want some way to specify "clerics are good at religion, rogues are good at thievery, etc." so I have to wonder if part of this is going to be a "you are trained in n of these m skills, plus x+IntMod skills your choice".


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Signature skill did literally nothing prior to level 7, and after level 7 it just flat out said "nope" to certain builds. I wouldn't mind a different attempt at the same concept, but this incarnation definitely needed to go.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
I did tell you guys a while back it would be significantly reduced and then Dan saw you guys asking in the stream and asked me "But how significantly does that mean when you say that it sounds like a lot?" and I said "Significantly reduced." I figured no one can say total removal is not a significant reduction ^_^

Thank you sir for your hard work & dedication. I appreciate your commitment to the editorial process, and checking in with us here.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can we get a lot more, a lot more skill feat options? And better options? Right now I have to take a skill feat because I can't downgrade, but for some skills there aren't any legendary feats. And for some skills even feats they do have aren't really compelling.


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SuperSheep wrote:

Can we get a lot more, a lot more skill feat options? And better options? Right now I have to take a skill feat because I can't downgrade, but for some skills there aren't any legendary feats. And for some skills even feats they do have aren't really compelling.

Yeah, I'm with you. I had some skill feats to pick and even after going through the list multiple times I couldn't find any that really excited me. I just ended up picking some and neither came up during the chapter.


SuperSheep wrote:

Can we get a lot more, a lot more skill feat options? And better options? Right now I have to take a skill feat because I can't downgrade, but for some skills there aren't any legendary feats. And for some skills even feats they do have aren't really compelling.

Agreed. The difference of skill feats between Society and Arcana is pretty big. It's not a big problem since every PC has at least 3 skills, but it would be nice to encourage PCs to dip into skills for the feats. Minimum of two skill feats per T/E/M/L for each skill would be my desire for the final product.


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So Mark said that Signature Skills were the original reason for the current number of trained skills each class gets. I hope that now they're no longer anything but a suggestion, those totals can be seriously reconsidered. There's a great thread (though the title is a bit combative) concerning it here:
Link

Liberty's Edge

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I'm very pleased with the removal of Signature Skills, and am quite hopeful that total number of skills will also improve for martial characters. Multiclass stuff for the other Classes is also great.

I'm also very hopeful for more Skill Feats in the final version (and hopefully better ones for many skills), but too much new content is a big thing to ask during the playtest. Heck, I'm surprised (though, as noted, pleased) that we're even getting the multiclass stuff.

Silver Crusade

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This thread has THE BEST news


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Joe M. wrote:
This thread has THE BEST news

Now if we can just murder resonance and bulk, we'll be on our way to a fun game. ;)


lordredraven wrote:
They also announced that not in the next update but the update afterwards we are getting multiclass archetypes for the other 8 classes!

So very happy about that!

Can't wait for the next two updates now, do we have any idea when they will come out?


All great news...also more multi-class options are neat...though can we get Archetypes and PrC options that might actually see play?

And now they need to redo ancestries so they are interesting and meaningful and classes so that your have real options...

Scarab Sages

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I don't think we need more skill feats, we need more exciting skill feats - most of the ones I've seen are buying back base functionality from 1E. I want those legendary feats and new uses, with an expanded base function otherwise we have the same problem we did with 1E animal tricks (every new trick made the base animal less useful)


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Looks good, I'll delay my enthusiasm on Signature Skills until I see what replaces them. Signature Skills was infuriating for me, but it could have been worse. Cautious Optimism Engage!

Soothe is also very nice. I guess the cleric fix is good too, admittedly I haven't played the closest attention to cleric. Multiclass Archetypes is very exciting, I wasn't sure we'd see them before launch.


Now kill the level gating of Class feats and we can actually start making character creation tolerable


Greylurker wrote:
Now kill the level gating of Class feats and we can actually start making character creation tolerable

Umm... if we eliminated *level* gating wouldn't we have human fighters who start 1st level with Weapon Supremacy and Certain Strike?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Now kill the level gating of Class feats and we can actually start making character creation tolerable
Umm... if we eliminated *level* gating wouldn't we have human fighters who start 1st level with Weapon Supremacy and Certain Strike?

Not all need to lose the level gating, but it would be really nice if a lot of them weren't some high level just because they needed to pad out that level's list. If it were up to me, I'd split the feats into 3 ranges: 1-7, 8-14, 15-20 or something like that. Some really don't belong in the high level they are.

Think of Rogue Talents and Ki Powers in PF1. You always had a lot of options to start from, not just like 3.


Level gating is fine. We mostly just need more class feats as you level up and/or a few whole patched for some patches.

Liberty's Edge

IMO, a big way to improve things now that Sigs are dead, simply eliminate all the Class/General/Skill/Ancestry Gates from Advancement.

Let each PC Pick 1 Class, 1 Ancestry, Skill, and General Feat (Which would simply be a Trait assigned to the Feats instead of a segregated list) at 1st Level. Whenever they would normally gain one of these Feats in the current Playtest, just let them choose any of them they meet the other requirements for.

Maybe?


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Yea. Mark did say "significantly." With italics and everything. A big problem with language today is people often use so much hyperbole, that when someone actually says something meaningful, it isn't taken to mean what it means because they didn't use the MOST word they could use (how often do you hear someone say they're "starving"?). The word significant means exactly what it means. =P

That being said, I'm anxious to see how the changes come about. Since signature skills were the only ones that could be taken to master and legendary. I wonder if each class will be given so many slots of skills they can choose at character creation that will work like the old signature system, whereby they can be taken to higher proficiency ranks.
Sounds good so far.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:

Yea. Mark did say "significantly." With italics and everything. A big problem with language today is people often use so much hyperbole, that when someone actually says something meaningful, it isn't taken to mean what it means because they didn't use the MOST word they could use (how often do you hear someone say they're "starving"?). The word significant means exactly what it means. =P

That being said, I'm anxious to see how the changes come about. Since signature skills were the only ones that could be taken to master and legendary. I wonder if each class will be given so many slots of skills they can choose at character creation that will work like the old signature system, whereby they can be taken to higher proficiency ranks.
Sounds good so far.

Nope, you just raise whichever ones you like! Also, fighters, monks, and their other friends with fewer signature skills will now start at a total of 5 skills trained at 1st level before Intelligence modifier.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:

Yea. Mark did say "significantly." With italics and everything. A big problem with language today is people often use so much hyperbole, that when someone actually says something meaningful, it isn't taken to mean what it means because they didn't use the MOST word they could use (how often do you hear someone say they're "starving"?). The word significant means exactly what it means. =P

That being said, I'm anxious to see how the changes come about. Since signature skills were the only ones that could be taken to master and legendary. I wonder if each class will be given so many slots of skills they can choose at character creation that will work like the old signature system, whereby they can be taken to higher proficiency ranks.
Sounds good so far.

Nope, you just raise whichever ones you like! Also, fighters, monks, and their other friends with fewer signature skills will now start at a total of 5 skills trained at 1st level before Intelligence modifier.

Confirmation of better skills for martials and any skill raises that a character likes definitely tones down my caution and replaces a lot of it with enthusiasm, thanks Mark!

Liberty's Edge

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Yes! I am overjoyed by this news.

That makes the minimum 5 skills, with Rogue, Ranger and Bard having more, I guess. That sounds pretty solid. Those were the high skill Classes in PF1, after all.


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Mark Seifter wrote:


Nope, you just raise whichever ones you like! Also, fighters, monks, and their other friends with fewer signature skills will now start at a total of 5 skills trained at 1st level before Intelligence modifier.

You saying "Fighters, Monks and their other friends" has me worried here.

I hope you did not forget about the Druid and their measly 3 skills trained before INT modifier?

Mark Seifter wrote:
That makes the minimum 5 skills, with Rogue, Ranger and Bard having more, I guess

If such is the case then yes, it is a strong improvement.

If nothing changed for them and supposed "skill monkeys" are now only 2-3 skills ahead of characters that do not focus on this particular aspect of gameplay, it'll just reinforce the feeling that martials can now do it all and other classes have no niche.

Liberty's Edge

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dnoisette wrote:

You saying "Fighters, Monks and their other friends" has me worried here.

I hope you did not forget about the Druid and their measly 3 skills trained before INT modifier?

The actual line is 'their other friends with fewer signature skills'. That strongly implies everyone with less than 5 Signature Skills.

dnoisette wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
That makes the minimum 5 skills, with Rogue, Ranger and Bard having more, I guess

For clarity, I said this, not Mark.

dnoisette wrote:

If such is the case then yes, it is a strong improvement.

If nothing changed for them and supposed "skill monkeys" are now only 2-3 skills ahead of characters that do not focus on this particular aspect of gameplay, it'll just reinforce the feeling that martials can now do it all and other classes have no niche.

Eh. Rogues, and to a lesser extent Bards, still have serious skill advantages other Classes can't readily duplicate. Rogues in the form of double the number of skills, skill ups, and Skill Feats, and Bards in the form of Bardic Lore and Versatile Performance.

Rangers have a few notable Class Feats as well, though their edge there is smaller. Of course, it was smaller in PF1 as well.


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graystone wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
This thread has THE BEST news
Now if we can just murder resonance and bulk, we'll be on our way to a fun game. ;)

Definitely DO NOT get rid of Bulk, imo. Dunno about Resonance.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


For clarity, I said this, not Mark.

Damn, that's what I get for copy/pasting quote tags without checking it afterwards, thanks for the clarification! :)


DataLoreRPG wrote:
Shady Stranger wrote:


Definitely DO NOT get rid of Bulk

Ya, Bulk is fine. DMs that want to ignore it can do so just like many DMs ignored encumbrance before.

The way I see it, Bulk is just a decent way to track encumbrance if you DON'T want to ignore it.

And it allows for characters with less strength to carry more. Being a Rogue in 1e kinda sucked, because of that. It was always a balancing act.


Shady Stranger wrote:
DataLoreRPG wrote:
Shady Stranger wrote:


Definitely DO NOT get rid of Bulk

Ya, Bulk is fine. DMs that want to ignore it can do so just like many DMs ignored encumbrance before.

The way I see it, Bulk is just a decent way to track encumbrance if you DON'T want to ignore it.

And it allows for characters with less strength to carry more. Being a Rogue in 1e kinda sucked, because of that. It was always a balancing act.

Yes - bulk seems fine so far. I think the only issue might be with alchemists - which could be very fixable with some tweaks to equipment or the class.


Where is this stream? I can't seem to find it.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Where is this stream? I can't seem to find it.

You can find it here at their Twitch page. The videos for other streams are on there too.

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