I'm comparing two items that both count my bard level as higher for the inspiration do they stack or do I only get the higher of the two.
How about posting what two items you're looking at? If the 2 items give the same type of bonus, they probably don't stack. But being extremely vague when you are looking at 2 specific items is just stupid. Give us as much information as you can and maybe we can give you a better answer.
The two particular are the Banner of the ancient kings and the Three reasons to live.
The banner states:
"A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability."
The three reasons states:
"When a bard uses the horn to start a bardic performance, all effects of that performance are calculated as if the bard were 6 levels higher. This doesn’t grant the bard access to new bardic performances; it only enhances those to which the bard already has access."
Untyped bonuses from seperare sources? I'd say they stack. Just make sure you have enough hands to do both, can the horn be played with only one hand?
You do realize that both items take 2 hands to use? I suppose if you are a Kasatha bard you could use both? Strapping the banner to your back isn't 'carrying' the banner. The use of the item is defined earlier in the item description as using both hands. The same with the Three Reasons.
Neither of them state what kind of bonus this is, which generally means they can stack. Though if you don't like it you could declare them circumstance bonuses and only let the more powerful effect be used.
Meirril wrote: You do realize that both items take 2 hands to use? Where does it say that?
The way I read it only bonus that required 2 hands from the banner was the initiative bonus ... I can see that I could be 100% wrong here though, so what do people think?
Also for the 3 reasons to live - where does it say you need both hands? (you would obviously need one but I don't see anything saying it needs two).
My thoughts are that you could blow the horn to start the performance, then next round drop the horn (assuming it's on a chord around your neck or something) and grasp the banner. This means by round 2 you could have the effects of both ...?
(I'm just looking at archivesofnethys at the moment: BANNER - HORN )
MrCharisma wrote: Meirril wrote: You do realize that both items take 2 hands to use? Where does it say that?
The way I read it only bonus that required 2 hands from the banner was the initiative bonus ... I can see that I could be 100% wrong here though, so what do people think? I respectfully disagree. I have also read through its description and have added it below for reference, but all of the effects which have named bonuses require the use of two hands. I would further venture that because of this restriction, the magic item requires two hands to be effective at all (as a game mechanic and also using the logic of game designers that write rules to flow instead of be clear). Longspears and 10 foot poles (the closest we have to an eight foot pole) are both mechanically two handed items and since the banner is attached to one, logic dictates it too becomes a two handed item once employed in this manner, since the description is not clear on the matter.
Banner of the Ancient Kings wrote: This tattered white canvas banner looks like an old piece of sailcloth, or perhaps a winding shroud—a 4-foot-by-6-foot rectangle with loops that can fit over a spear haft or pole running up one side. If mounted on a longspear or pole at least 8 feet in length, the banner shifts in appearance to match the heraldry or coat of arms of the person who attached it. If that person has no device, the flag instead displays a device that echoes the owner’s personality (such as a favorite animal, favored weapon, or holy symbol of the wielder’s deity).
When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings— once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.
If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide 286), the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.
MrCharisma wrote: Also for the 3 reasons to live - where does it say you need both hands? (you would obviously need one but I don't see anything saying it needs two).
My thoughts are that you could blow the horn to start the performance, then next round drop the horn (assuming it's on a chord around your neck or something) and grasp the banner. This means by round 2 you could have the effects of both ...?
(I'm just looking at archivesofnethys at the moment: BANNER - HORN )
I also read the entry on the horn and it is described as a two foot musical instrument. Again, applying the logic of game designers, name any musical instrument that is two feet in length that does not require two hands to operate (quick thoughts go to drums, guitar, anything that uses a bow, even most small horns require one hand to hold and one to play). I suppose something like a kazoo would circumvent this, but by and large, musical instruments are two handed items. I also read the entry as two separate abilities, one which is a single use per day and does not affect bardic performance and one that is not restricted in number of uses, but does apply to bardic performances. That pesky grammar of adding the period makes them two separate thoughts. Again, quoted below for your convenience (it helps so much to have these for review without having to link away...sometimes you do not come back.
Three Reasons to Live wrote: The horns of three disparate creatures (chimera, dire ram, and satyr) make up this magical instrument, interlocking into one shofar about 2 feet long. Once per day the horn can be blown to affect all allies within 30 feet that can hear it. Affected creatures gain sonic resistance 10 and a +2 bonus on saves against spells and effects that deal sonic damage, are language-dependent, or must be heard to be effective. This protection lasts for 10 minutes. If a bard uses the horn to start a bardic performance, all effects of that performance are calculated as if the bard were 6 levels higher. This doesn’t grant the bard access to new bardic performances; it only enhances those to which the bard already has access. Now as far as stacking goes, that is going to be a DM call by group as that portion of their description implies an untyped bonus. I also feel the need to point out that the banner only affects the inspire courage bardic performance, while the horn applies to any currently known bardic performance. Personally, I could see using either item to start the inspire courage performance and gain the benefit, but since they both need two hands to use (even if only one of them needs two hands), mechanically, only one grants its effects to the bardic performance at a time. Grasping the banner after starting the performance will not allow the magic to come into play because the action has already been started and the effects are now in play. At least with the horn it specifies you must use it to start the performance, but it seems clear it is not necessary to carry on, but the effects do. DMs may vary on this point however, as I am sure some of my esteemed colleagues will no doubt point out with their view.
I would say yes since items that boost effective levels and don't stack together are called out as not being able to stack.
doomman47 wrote: I would say yes since items that boost effective levels and don't stack together are called out as not being able to stack. The way I read it the banner boosts your level and the horn gives you a bonus equal to if you were a higher level
The marxman wrote: doomman47 wrote: I would say yes since items that boost effective levels and don't stack together are called out as not being able to stack. The way I read it the banner boosts your level and the horn gives you a bonus as if you were a higher level Doesn't really matter how its worded if it doesn't have this line "This effect does not stack with other abilities that increase the effective level of(insert power here)" than they stack.
Thedmstrikes wrote: MrCharisma wrote: Meirril wrote: You do realize that both items take 2 hands to use? Where does it say that?
The way I read it only bonus that required 2 hands from the banner was the initiative bonus ... I can see that I could be 100% wrong here though, so what do people think? I respectfully disagree... Ok so I re-read it and after reading it more carefully I agree that you need to hold the banner in 2 hands to get any benefit from it. You're absolutely right there.
However I disagree that you need to start the performance with the banner in both hands to gain the benefit. The banner specifically calls out the saving-throw boost as needing to be in hand, but for all the others you should be able to drop it and pick it up as you like to use its bonuses:
If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings— once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect. I can't see any reason you wouldn't get the boost to your performance if you wield the banner half way through your performance.
As for the 3 Reasons to Live ... I'm not sure. It's actually an item from Plunder an Peril (and possibly Skulls and Shackles?), and is described here:
I feel like you wouldn't need 2 hands to start a performance with this horn, and since it doesn't specifically say you do I think you'd be unfairly punishing a player for making it 2-handed.
However I also suggest that a GM has the right to refuse such a specific campaign item unless you're playing that AP. If your GM lets you use this item I probably wouldn't argue too much for more advantages.
The bonuses should stack as they're untyped and have no language that would limit stacking.
The horn doesn't say it requires two hands to use, so it doesn't require two hands to use.
The banner says it requires two hands, so you need two hands for it.
Banner of the Ancient Kings wrote: When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings— once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.
If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide 286), the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.
The banner does some things when carried, and some more things when wielded. The longspear is a two handed weapon, so needs two hands to wield. A pole, however, is not a weapon, It might not needs two hands to wield. Both can easily be carried in one hand.
The bit about the bard should have been a separate paragraph. It also only requires "carry", not "wield".
Three Reasons to Live (the horn) wrote: The horns of three disparate creatures (chimera, dire ram, and satyr) make up this magical instrument, interlocking into one shofar about 2 feet long. Once per day the horn can be blown to affect all allies within 30 feet that can hear it. Affected creatures gain sonic resistance 10 and a +2 bonus on saves against spells and effects that deal sonic damage, are language-dependent, or must be heard to be effective. This protection lasts for 10 minutes. If a bard uses the horn to start a bardic performance, all effects of that performance are calculated as if the bard were 6 levels higher. This doesn’t grant the bard access to new bardic performances; it only enhances those to which the bard already has access. The bit about the bard should have been a separate paragraph.
This pic and video sure looks like a two foot cow horn being played in one hand.
Weapon chords are a great idea for this item.
As neither level increase has a type listed, they are by definition untyped and thus stack unless called out. They are not called out.
/cevah
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
