On the topic of Hit Points Healing -- What about Stamina?


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After reading up Stamina I really like the system. Essentially making everyone have 2 smaller pools of Health and one that recharges. BUT how much would the game have to change to accommodate it? Honestly by looking it doesn't seem that much. Even going by how Resonance works the Stamina system would be perfect compliment to it. I think the best way would be to allow as many rests as your Con modifier+1. It seems to work great to me. Looking at a non healing party vs a healing party the healing party will still obviously have a huge advantage.

Take a 1st level Barbarian. He has 8 HP and 8+Con Stamina, let's assume +2 for a total of 10. So he gets his Race bonus to HP, let's say he's a Human so 8, giving him a total of 16 HP and 10 Stamina, so 26 total Health. Comparing it to how things are right now a Barbarian of the same level would have 12+2+8, so 22. Not all that different. So good there.

If HP can only be healed by Magic or Potions/Elixirs then he's bound to have at least 1 healing potion on since there's no Healer in the party. Our Barbarian isn't very charismatic so his current Resonance is 1. That means it really works out that he only would probably need 1 Healing Potion in an adventuring day.

So if the Barbarian takes only 8 damage in the first battle he encounters he might not even need to rest, as he still has 18 (16/2) left. In the next battle he takes 11, digging into his HP. He now has 7 health (7/0). He's pretty banged up. He asks the party to let him rest for 10 minutes and regains his Stamina pool. He's now at 17 (7/10). In the next battle he drops to a 19, those pesky crits!, but his friends manage to kill the threat before healing is required. He wakes up and has 1 HP. He decides to rest once more and drink his healing potion. He rolls a 3. He's now back at 14 (4/10). In the final boss fight he takes 13 damage. Barely standing. He only has 1 more rest for the day and decides to take it before leaving the dungeon. He's now at 11 (1/10). The party gets ambushed outside the cave by some returning monsters. He takes 9 damage leaving him at 2 Health (1/1) and no way to regain his Stamina and HP without resting for the day. It was a hard fight at their weakest moment of the day leaving the Barbarian almost dead but they prevailed. That is totally doable and requires no changing of Resonance at all, which I think Paizo would like honestly.

Now do that same experience with no Stamina and no healer. Barbarian has 22 HP. First fight take 8, down to 14. Second fight take 11, down to 3. By this time he has to drink his potion. He rolls a 3. He only has 6 HP left. Not wanting to leave he trudges on. The next fight he's dropped after a hit of 19. He wakes up at 1 HP. He now has to roll to see if he can overspend on resonance and use one of his party members healing potions to heal a Max of 8 HP. Let's say he succeeded and luckily rolled an 8. He's at 9. In the final boss fight he's dropped again. If his party did manage to win without him the ambush at the end of the day would definitely kill the party.

Now the same thing with Stamina and a healer, under the assumption that healing only works on HP. The Barbarian takes 8, down to 18 (16/2) . No healing required. The Barbarian takes 11, down to 7 (7/0), mid combat heal adds 7, up to 14. He's still only at 14 (14/0) so he decides to take a rest, bringing him to 24 (14/10). The next combat he takes that 19 damage but doesn't go down, he's at 5 (7/0). Another mid combat heal of 8 brings him up to 13 (13/0). He still needs to rest to be back in top shape, so he's now at 23 (13/10). In the boss battle he takes 12, he's now at 11 (11/0). The healer is out of heals, after patching everyone else up, so he's stuck at 11 HP for now (if he didn't bring healing potions). One more rest and he's at 21 (11/10). In the ambush he takes 11 leaving him without Stamina and no way to regain them and no more heals, but he's at 10 HP. So noticeably the healer in the party played a huge role. Instead of going down once and being on the brink of death he stayed up for the whole dungeon. The limit on Stamina refills means the adventuring day can't last forever but it's certainly a huge improvement over what we currently have.

Stamina just seems to be an excellent addition to the system, especially with Resonance, as now you want to have those potions to heal your HP if you don't have a Healer but it's still not spamable.

Seems a win/win. I honestly will probably house rule this into my games if it isn't implemented. It's awesome.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Redelia wrote:
If you do implement stamina, _please_ allow clerics to also have a way to restore stamina in combat. I really hate feeling so useless with my healer mystic when everyone is down lots of SP but no HP in the middle of a fight. And no, I'm not going to multiclass, the casting progression is already painfully slow.

Yeah that was really bizarre seeing the Mystic actually unable to heal people because the "right" pool wasn't damaged.

Sovereign Court

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Redelia wrote:
If you do implement stamina, _please_ allow clerics to also have a way to restore stamina in combat. I really hate feeling so useless with my healer mystic when everyone is down lots of SP but no HP in the middle of a fight. And no, I'm not going to multiclass, the casting progression is already painfully slow.

I was a bit surprised when I first realized my mystic could only heal HP, not Stamina damage; but it's part of the division of labor between the mystic and the envoy, who gets to heal Sta but not HP.

For me it's not such a problem though because my "combat plan" is to start out shooting people with a longarm, and only switch to healing if things get dire. You don't get so many spells in Starfinder that "being a caster all the time" is attractive.

Also, I think this problem fades a bit as you get towards level 6+. By then frontline PCs will be getting some DR and fairly large HP pools; a single hit isn't likely to drop them. Characters who might be dropped by a single hit really shouldn't be standing at the front in Starfinder.


Also if you made the HP/Stamina a little lower than what Starfinder recommends you wouldn't even have to adjust much in terms of total health, they would be almost exactly the same with it getting a little higher because of Con increases. So making it be as below would net almost exactly the same health with some small variables on odd numbers.

D12 to 6/6+con
D10 to 5/5+con
D8 to 4/4+con
D6 to 3/3+con

I don't know if this would be better or worse considering how the healing would be split.


Lord Norin wrote:
I believe that after playing Starfinder , that Stamina is a more elegant and simple fix than hitdice, or short rests...

There is very little difference between stamina that recovers after 10 minutes and short rest that can recover a bunch of your HP in 10 minutes, except you don't have two pools of health that don't work the same way.

You can get the same result without bringing in Stamina, which was after all meant to work with Resolve, which is a thing that doesn't exist in PF at all (while healing is far more common than in Starfinder).


Tridus wrote:
Lord Norin wrote:
I believe that after playing Starfinder , that Stamina is a more elegant and simple fix than hitdice, or short rests...

There is very little difference between stamina that recovers after 10 minutes and short rest that can recover a bunch of your HP in 10 minutes, except you don't have two pools of health that don't work the same way.

You can get the same result without bringing in Stamina, which was after all meant to work with Resolve, which is a thing that doesn't exist in PF at all (while healing is far more common than in Starfinder).

The problem with having it just go off one pool is it makes healing and resting to powerful when used together. Making them go off two different pools means you have to manage both of your resources more wisely in order to not fall behind in one or the other.


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Tridus wrote:
Lord Norin wrote:
I believe that after playing Starfinder , that Stamina is a more elegant and simple fix than hitdice, or short rests...

There is very little difference between stamina that recovers after 10 minutes and short rest that can recover a bunch of your HP in 10 minutes, except you don't have two pools of health that don't work the same way.

You can get the same result without bringing in Stamina, which was after all meant to work with Resolve, which is a thing that doesn't exist in PF at all (while healing is far more common than in Starfinder).

Actually, there is a significant difference. 4E D&D used one health pool and healing surges that you could activate on a short rest, and Pathfinder players didn't seem to like it.

Starfinder's Stamina system using two pools with different healing conditions is a feature, not a bug. It means that Envoys get to use their Stamina heal once per person per ten minute rest so that the Mystics don't feel obligated to blow their per-day spells if someone just gets scratched up by a feral cat.

Clerics should absolutely not be able to heal both, at least not with the same spell; be wise about your spell usage and don't overheal. Bards should be the ones who heal Stamina with a rousing song or words of encouragement. Alchemists may be able to sling either a healing potion or a pot of potent black coffee, but while one would heal Hit Points and the other heal Stamina, one concoction should only do one or the other. I could see Barbarians regenerating Stamina during a Rage, but definitely not Hit Points.

There's a lot you can do with it, really.


Dracomicron wrote:
Starfinder's Stamina system using two pools with different healing conditions is a feature, not a bug. It means that Envoys get to use their Stamina heal once per person per ten minute rest so that the Mystics don't feel obligated to blow their per-day spells if someone just gets scratched up by a feral cat.

Mystics can't do it, which led to one earlier in the thread complaining about how she couldn't use her heals very often.

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Clerics should absolutely not be able to heal both, at least not with the same spell; be wise about your spell usage and don't overheal.

That's two spells to do the same thing and juggling to avoid overdoing it becausae you have two pools that don't overlap instead of one. That's a lot of extra complexity that isn't needed here.


Tridus wrote:
Mystics can't do it, which led to one earlier in the thread complaining about how she couldn't use her heals very often.

In my significant experience with Starfinder Society (which is pointedly not as dangerous as regular play, generally), you get clocked into hit point damage reasonably often. At 5th level I got bit by a dinosaur for about 35 damage... twice. When we were playing AP1, by the final encounter, we were being held together by duct tape and bailing wire, even with a dedicated healer... not to mention the two deaths from the BBEG.

I think that any complaint that mystics not being able to heal as much as they want to be based on a small sample size... and also somewhat misguided, because GODS FORBID healers should have options for what to do other than buff out small dents in the tank's health.

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Clerics should absolutely not be able to heal both, at least not with the same spell; be wise about your spell usage and don't overheal.
That's two spells to do the same thing and juggling to avoid overdoing it becausae you have two pools that don't overlap instead of one. That's a lot of extra complexity that isn't needed here.

You have a point. Better to not let clerics heal Stamina at all. Worst case: the Stamina comes back with a rest. Best case: the Bard tops them off.


Dracomicron wrote:
Actually, there is a significant difference. 4E D&D used one health pool and healing surges that you could activate on a short rest, and Pathfinder players didn't seem to like it.

I don't know about Pathfinder players, but for me healing surges were not the problem with 4e. My problem had more to do with class homogenization and poorly calibrated math (fights lasted too long, and effective accuracy went down, not up, at higher levels).

IMO, the best things about 4e were:

* Healing surges allowing healing between encounters, but with a daily limit so there's still some attrition.
* Moving much of the utility magic and condition relief to rituals, making them easier to access without having just the right class, but adding a cost to their use.
* Monsters having interesting things to do instead of being bags of hit points.


Dracomicron wrote:
Actually, there is a significant difference. 4E D&D used one health pool and healing surges that you could activate on a short rest, and Pathfinder players didn't seem to like it.

How much of that is because of the system itself, and how much of it is because its 4E?


Dracomicron wrote:
You have a point. Better to not let clerics heal Stamina at all. Worst case: the Stamina comes back with a rest. Best case: the Bard tops them off.

So you've nerfed healers by cutting in half what they can heal, and created a situation where fully healing someone in combat requires TWO healing classes instead of one.

I'm really not seeing how this is better than not adding the extra complexity in the first place.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Tridus wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
You have a point. Better to not let clerics heal Stamina at all. Worst case: the Stamina comes back with a rest. Best case: the Bard tops them off.

So you've nerfed healers by cutting in half what they can heal, and created a situation where fully healing someone in combat requires TWO healing classes instead of one.

I'm really not seeing how this is better than not adding the extra complexity in the first place.

Stamina in Starfinder is able to restored by the individual PC's so for the most you don't need to have it healed... It reduces the need for "Pure" healers in the starfinder setting.

Some classes such as the envoy can restore some stamina immediately like during a fight but in general that is usually not necessary. My Starfinder Group has been running for months without a mystic in their party but they do have an NPC ally aboard their ship (The Ion Wraith) as part of their crew.


Dracomicron wrote:


So... you don't want another pool of health that you need to track, but you do want to expand the parry system and make casters more powerful by having them do more damage and grant... another pool of temporary health? Seems like you just got all that extra resource tracking back and then some.
Improving defensive actions draws out combat. Improving melee defense and making magic more powerful pigeon-holes melee into being MMO tanks and just standing there taking hits while casters take care of the problem... this also doesn't help the 15-minute work day problem, because those casters are still expending daily resources to complete encounters, and having to pick up slack because the melee people are parrying instead of attacking two or three times.
I'm not trying to come down on you, but I'd like for you to see that your solution to the 15-minute work day is to optimize and expand the elements that make the problem endemic to the system, instead of the Stamina system, which adds very mild complexity to dramatically expand the utility of all characters, including the healers.

You are correct. I absolutely do not want additional mechanics to track beside hit points to rule on characters ability to live and interact in the game world. Your replies to my suggestions are not solid and I will discuss them in turn.

1) Yes, making casters more powerful is a solid option. If you read the boards, a lot of caster players are complaining that their spells have been nerfed so badly that they cannot make meaningful contributions in combat. This causes the battles to linger on and increases the chances of monsters hitting and depleting hit points. Its just another version of the 15 minute workday where the casters burn all their spells and the martials are damaged so much that the party has to constantly rest. Placing the band aid of stamina will not solve this issue. The issue is party efficiency. IF the party cannot deal with multiple encounters because caster spells are too OP that is a problem. If they cannot deal with multiple encounters because caster spells are too weak that is also a problem

2) Improving defenses only draws out combats when both sides have access to the same defenses. If you notice, most humanoid monsters do not have access to shields in the playtest. Goblins, orcs, ogres, gnolls & kobolds don't carry them when they should. Shields are lifesavers in PF2, especially for monsters who don't care about a shield being destroyed after taking two hits. Shields would prolong combats by giving these monsters DR but they are not put in monster stats. Most monsters don't use swords, except for more militaristic ones such as hobgoblins. Hobgoblins also use shields so a hobgoblin using stride, strike, raise shield or strike, parry, raise shield as options once in a while is not the be all end of combat. Parry would mostly be used by PC's as a third action option so combat would not be grinding on and on as likely its a PC action and not a monster one.

3) Temp hit points are much better than stamina if they are used correctly. Create a spell or better yet a feat that buffs recipients with temp hit points and call it Fortifying magic. Whenever a caster provides himself or an ally with a beneficial spell he bestows 1D6 temporary hit points per spell level on the target(s). Once a recipient has temporary hit points they are bolstered against additional temporary hit points equal to or less than their current temporary hit point total. Temporary hit points are exhausted when used or at the end of the encounter and cannot be regained with healing magic or any effect that restores hit points.

4) Martials have to allow casters to play in the combat sandbox too, especially if they want to play in other sandboxes of social, exploration and downtime activity. They cannot exclusively hog combat and then demand to have equality in all other fields. If you want extreme balance in other areas you have to give up dominance in combat. Its really not a complicated issue to understand


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Zman0's idea of allowing Hero Points to heal pretty neatly sidesteps this discussion of Stamina Vs Health, is pretty thematic, and has the added benefit of Hero Points becoming important enough to player's decision making that they won't be routinely forgotten!


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Arrow17 wrote:
1) Yes, making casters more powerful is a solid option. If you read the boards, a lot of caster players are complaining that their spells have been nerfed so badly that they cannot make meaningful contributions in combat. This causes the battles to linger on and increases the chances of monsters hitting and depleting hit points. Its just another version of the 15 minute workday where the casters burn all their spells and the martials are damaged so much that the party has to constantly rest. Placing the band aid of stamina will not solve this issue. The issue is party efficiency. IF the party cannot deal with multiple encounters because caster spells are too OP...

Ideally the martials and the casters can contribute approximately the same amount each, based on their roles. Ideally, you wouldn't even need a caster, honestly. The problem is that, historically casters have contributed considerably MORE to combat because they just spam all their best spells right away and then want to rest after two fights; since they are such a tremendous resource, the prospect of going on without their juice is not tempting. This is a resource management problem as much as it is a gameplay problem, but apparently asking caster players to not blow their loads like a kid with a pocket full of quarters at the video arcade is going to be too much to ask. No wonder the spells got nerfed.

Stamina absolutely solves a good percentage of the 15-minute work day problem, because that's half the party's health the healer doesn't have to sit around healing after the fight (saving the healer's spells) so the martials can get in there and mix it up with more attacks, which don't expend considerable daily resources. I'm not sure how this is controversial.

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2) Improving defenses only draws out combats when both sides have access to the same defenses.

Improving defenses drags out combats because the martials are defending, not attacking. Your supposition only applies if you assume that the martials can't provide a meaningful amount of damage in the fight with their three actions. It has nothing to do with monsters with shields.

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3) Temp hit points are much better than stamina if they are used correctly. Create a spell or better yet a feat that buffs recipients with temp hit points and call it Fortifying magic. Whenever a caster provides himself or an ally with a beneficial spell he bestows 1D6 temporary hit points per spell level on the target(s). Once a recipient has temporary hit points they are bolstered against additional temporary hit points equal to or less than their current temporary hit point total. Temporary hit points are exhausted when used or at the end of the encounter and cannot be regained with healing magic or any effect that restores hit points.

An extra HP pool by any other name is still an extra HP pool. Stamina isn't that hard to keep track of. You can't say that you're against the added complexity and then create a whole extra system of extra magic that has to compete with all the other spells that the healer has to be slinging to keep up with the martials being nerfed by their relegation to meat shields for the casters. Can't you see how the solution to the 15 minute work day CAN NOT be "more spells?"

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4) Martials have to allow casters to play in the combat sandbox too, especially if they want to play in other sandboxes of social, exploration and downtime activity. They cannot exclusively hog combat and then demand to have equality in all other fields. If you want extreme balance in other areas you have to give up dominance in combat. Its really not a complicated issue to understand.

...can't everybody contribute in every situation? Casters have historically been so dominant for so long in EVERY situation that I can't even conceive of martials having to be generous with "allowing" casters to participate in combat. Like, I just don't get it at all.

It would be nice if they manage to work out the cantrip system so that there are abilities good enough for casters to use that don't waste daily resources, but I fear that many caster players will never use their unlimited resources if there are slightly more optimized limited resources available, and of course want to rest the moment those limited resources are half expended.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Redelia wrote:
If you do implement stamina, _please_ allow clerics to also have a way to restore stamina in combat. I really hate feeling so useless with my healer mystic when everyone is down lots of SP but no HP in the middle of a fight. And no, I'm not going to multiclass, the casting progression is already painfully slow.
Yeah that was really bizarre seeing the Mystic actually unable to heal people because the "right" pool wasn't damaged.

Why would you want to search for people to heal? So long as they haven't taken wound damage, you are good to do something else entirely! You can, if you are at a loss, use an assist action for another character. You can use those spells that you are normally hording for healing slots and use them to buff, making your party more effective in another way.


Azih wrote:
Zman0's idea of allowing Hero Points to heal pretty neatly sidesteps this discussion of Stamina Vs Health, is pretty thematic, and has the added benefit of Hero Points becoming important enough to player's decision making that they won't be routinely forgotten!

Thanks. IMO it "feels" like the heroic thing to do.

With a little tweak for hero points in general. Make them reset to 2 after a long rest. Change the cost of each heroic action to one hero point and we have a way to extend the adventuring day. The healing has opportunity cost. It feels thematic and heroic. And it gives the DM a way to extend the party when they're facing waves of enemies. When they are down on resources and they decide to press on instead of running the DM deems that heroic and gives them a hero point. Those that need the HP regain 50% HP, those who are lightly wounded eye consumables or spells to top of or leave it, or weight topping off against the other possible heroic actions. Those who came though the best eye the hero point know it means a reroll or an extra action, or can stave off dying.

And besides, what is more heroic than throwing down a hero point!?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Again, I like having half the HP becoming Stamina, which can be regenerated with short rests. You have a party who while they can benefit from a class that can heal, doesn't absolutely require one.

Regular cure spells may only work on HP, or can work on HP AND Stamina. I can ALSO see a Cantrip (positive plane energy) being able to heal stamina without being game breaking, probably at a base of 1d6 and touch, with a similar power progression and use as the Cure spell.

Dark Archive

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Please implement stamina.
Not needing a healer is awesome.


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I’m fine with a “hit point replenishment pool” type of mechanic, but I am not a fan of stamina (at least as presented in Starfinder). In that implementation, each character has FAR too many hit points, to the point that it get harder and harder to meaningfully challenge characters after about fourth or fifth level.

As for healing, if we need someone to take a healing role as conceived for the fantasy game assumptions to remain, we just need more meaningful sources of healing for multiple classes, that does not interfere with the classes’ main resource pools. Just as the cleric has channels separate from their domain powers and their spell slots, other healers need this resource as a separate pool, and it be widespread enough among other classes that multiple character ideas are valid for the party. It doesn’t have to be “just casters” either; investment in the medicine skill could serve this purpose, just less limited in results per day than it currently is in the playtest.

I think people most often reject “playing the healer” because it cuts into their character’s other resources, as well as proscribes them with certain role playing choices (such as being ‘beholden’ to a deity). They’re expected to sacrifice their fun and play style in a manner they don’t enjoy for the sake of the group. However, if there were multiple avenues to access healing resources in exploration mode that was a separate resource that didn’t touch their other resources, I think complaints would be far fewer, while still keeping the role of healer in the game,


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ENHenry wrote:
I’m fine with a “hit point replenishment pool” type of mechanic, but I am not a fan of stamina (at least as presented in Starfinder). In that implementation, each character has FAR too many hit points, to the point that it get harder and harder to meaningfully challenge characters after about fourth or fifth level.

That's just a matter of tweaking the exact numbers. PF2.0 doesn't have to have as high a stamina + hit point total as high as Starfinder.

As I said earlier, though I did a Subtier 5-6 adventure for Starfinder Society where a dinosaur was hitting us for 35 per hit and my vesk soldier was out of Stamina and into hit points after 2 rounds... and that is WITH a second vesk soldier helping to tank. Believe me, Stamina isn't the shield some people think it is. What it did do is make it so that I just needed two mk. 1 healing serums after the fight instead of using all of the healing in the party and still moving on injured.

5th level is where damage starts ramping way up, too, to compensate for resistances and damage reduction.

Society adventures are a little odd because they have to be written for a range of levels, while the APs know pretty well where the PCs will be, and a GM doing homebrew will know EXACTLY where they are, and be able to modify the encounter to issue a true threat.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Stamina system in Starfinder greatly contributed to my table's ability to run with only three PCs and push on for several combats without a full rest. I worry that Pathfinder will be more challenging to run with only three players. I can make anything work, but Starfinder's Stamina system has been very accommodating to my table's needs.

Sovereign Court

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Dracomicron wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
I’m fine with a “hit point replenishment pool” type of mechanic, but I am not a fan of stamina (at least as presented in Starfinder). In that implementation, each character has FAR too many hit points, to the point that it get harder and harder to meaningfully challenge characters after about fourth or fifth level.

That's just a matter of tweaking the exact numbers. PF2.0 doesn't have to have as high a stamina + hit point total as high as Starfinder.

As I said earlier, though I did a Subtier 5-6 adventure for Starfinder Society where a dinosaur was hitting us for 35 per hit and my vesk soldier was out of Stamina and into hit points after 2 rounds... and that is WITH a second vesk soldier helping to tank. Believe me, Stamina isn't the shield some people think it is. What it did do is make it so that I just needed two mk. 1 healing serums after the fight instead of using all of the healing in the party and still moving on injured.

5th level is where damage starts ramping way up, too, to compensate for resistances and damage reduction.

Society adventures are a little odd because they have to be written for a range of levels, while the APs know pretty well where the PCs will be, and a GM doing homebrew will know EXACTLY where they are, and be able to modify the encounter to issue a true threat.

I tanked that dinosaur with my soldier, but I had no buddy beside me; but I did have a healer behind me topping up my HP every round, and I just barely managed to hold out longer than the dino.

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be: healing is a viable tactic, but having a different role is also a viable tactic.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

I tanked that dinosaur with my soldier, but I had no buddy beside me; but I did have a healer behind me topping up my HP every round, and I just barely managed to hold out longer than the dino.

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be: healing is a viable tactic, but having a different role is also a viable tactic.

I bet your healer felt like a champ after that. Not to mention that you didn't need everything they had left to heal you going into the final battle, because you got your stamina back from a rest.

Great story, and a great illustration of the point here. There should be viable paths towards every problem, including healing issues.


I really like the Stamina idea, and I think you can implement it without needing to track a whole second health bar.

Second Wind: At the end of an encounter, characters that rest for at least ten minutes regain half of their maximum hit points, rounded down. They can't regain more hit points this way than the damage they took during the encounter.

Example: Amiri the Barbarian, Merisiel the Rogue, and Kyra the Cleric have defeated a squad of orcs. They were each hurt during the fighting and decide to rest.

Amiri's maximum Hit Points are 40, she started the fight with 40, and she took 25 damage. When she rests, she regains 20 Hit Points (half her maximum) and now has 35 Hit Points.

Meanwhile, Merisiel's maximum Hit Points are 20, she started the fight with 15, and she took 5 damage. When she rests, she regains 5 Hit Points, since she took less damage than half her maximum Hit Points. She now has 15 Hit Points again.

Finally, Kyra's maximum Hit Points are 30, she started the fight with 30, and she took 25 damage. When she rests, she regains 15 Hit Points, since she took more damage than half her maximum Hit Points. She now has 20 Hit Points.

In-universe, a Second Wind represents a character regaining their composure, bandaging minor cuts or bruises, and otherwise readying themselves. The upsides of this mechanic are many. First, it helps extend the adventuring day by reducing hit point attrition. Second, it prevent PCs from (in most situations) walking into a fight with less than half their Hit Points, which helps avoid nasty TPKs. Third, it keeps healing magic useful (but not absolutely required) since Second Wind cares about how much damage you took, not what your current hit points are. For this point I'll give an example:

In the same battle above, Valeros took a beating. His maximum Hit Points are 30, he started with 20, and he took over 40 damage that fight. Thankfully, Kyra was there to heal him up mid-battle, and he ended the fight with 10 Hit Points. When he rests, he regains 15 Hit Points, half his maximum since he took more than that much damage during the battle. He now has 25 Hit Points, more than he started the battle with, and he makes a smarmy remark about a good fight getting the blood pumping.

As a last benefit, this change does go a little way towards fixing the 'wand of cure light wounds' problem the Devs are worried about.


Is tracking the total damage they took during the last encounter any easier than tracking Stamina?

Scarab Sages

Singularity wrote:

No!!!! Please don't add Stamina to Pathfinder 2nd Ed (PF2e).

I'm a Starfinder GM, and have been totally frustrated by not being able to significantly hurt any of the PCs during Dead Suns. (PCs need to be hurt sometimes, in order to give them a sense of mortality.) I can usually get a couple of them to lose some or most of their Stamina in a single combat, but as soon as the combat is over they rest for 10 minutes, spend a resolve point, and viola! back to full health.

Our Mystic was totally frustrated. She had nothing to do. Medpatches? Who needs them? Medicine skill rolls? Only for diseases... I finally homebrewed a rule that the Mystic could "cure" Stamina instead of HP on a case by case basis.

I don't think that was a good solution, but at least it gave the Mystic something to do, at least until we made it to Eox. (But that's another story.)

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE... No Stamina in PF2e.

This is the reason I also hate Stamina systems, it's as if the party gets a long rest between challenges. The stamina system is just a disingenuous way of letting the party have 5 min work days. It becomes extremely difficult to have attrition in your game with stamina systems, which in turn guts the game of a very strategic and gratifying part of the challenges, many traps and hazards will become meaningless, imagine trying to GM a Dark Sun game. Also there is a reason why hit points alone have been the way 95% of RPGs have handled the game, Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, stamina, the skill to turn a powerful strike into a lesser powerful strike, the will to live, and luck. So yes hit points are abstract, they have served the hobby well for many years, we also have temp hp, that can simulate stamina also. I was in a 5ed campaign, where the GM switched to a stamina rule, it made an already relatively safe game (5ed has tons of healing BTW) into a situation I felt had 0 chance of death. Starfinder stuff is already inserted into PF2, and I don’t see any of them as improvements, an artificial flat footed rule to name one off the top of my head, like how can flat footed be totally divorced from losing your dodge abilities? And adding TAC to bonuses to armor? Which was taken from the EAC mechanic. How does chainmail block an incorporeal touch?

Scarab Sages

Zman0 wrote:
Azih wrote:

You know, this thread has made me think back on the speculative fiction I enjoy and yeah there aren't any dedicated healers along for the adventure pretty much ever.

IMO as long as we have a guaranteed 1-2 herop points after a long rest, this works. Sure, it is at DM discretion about awarding additional ones, but so it literally everything ie encounter design, if characters can rest, if their rest is interrupted, etc.

Why would you want to incentivise the 5 min work day even more?


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Luceon wrote:
The stamina system is just a disingenuous way of letting the party have 5 min work days.

To clarify: you're redefining 'day' to mean 'the amount of time you spend adventuring before you get your health back'? Even if you don't get back spell slots, spell points, resolve points, or whatever?

The main issues people have with the 15-minute work day are (a) it means adventurers don't have to conserve their resources because they know they're going to get them back soon, and (b) it makes for a bad narrative if the characters walk into a dungeon, have one battle, and then immediately retreat to their campsite for 23 hours.

I don't see how either of those problems apply to a Stamina system.


Yeah can we not redefine the little gaming terms I have enough trouble keeping track of their meanings already.


Luceon wrote:
Azih wrote:

You know, this thread has made me think back on the speculative fiction I enjoy and yeah there aren't any dedicated healers along for the adventure pretty much ever.

IMO as long as we have a guaranteed 1-2 herop points after a long rest, this works. Sure, it is at DM discretion about awarding additional ones, but so it literally everything ie encounter design, if characters can rest, if their rest is interrupted, etc.

Why would you want to incentivise the 5 min work day even more?

Using hero points for staminaesque healing isn’t a 5 minutes work day. You shouldn’t redefine generally accepted terms for arguments sake.

Using a resource, with a real opportunity cost, to continue on during the day so other resources can continually be depleted is very different that indiscriminately using resources to retreat for a full reset. Saying otherwise is disengenuous.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Is tracking the total damage they took during the last encounter any easier than tracking Stamina?

It's a little bit easier. You could simplify and say that you don't recover more hit points with a second wind than your hit points at the start of the encounter. It would be a little less friendly to healing magic but otherwise fine.

Luceon wrote:
This is the reason I also hate Stamina systems, it's as if the party gets a long rest between challenges ... It becomes extremely difficult to have attrition in your game with stamina systems, which in turn guts the game of a very strategic and gratifying part of the challenges, many traps and hazards will become meaningless, imagine trying to GM a Dark Sun game.

Well, you don't need to drain hit points to inflict Attrition on your party. Pathfinder 2.0 has a large number of conditions you can impose as a consequence for traps, hazards, and even regular attacks. Just to list a few: Enervated, Enfeebled, Fatigued, Hampered, Petrified, Sick, Slowed, Sluggish, and Stupefied. In your Dark Sun game, characters that go without water for a few hours could be fatigued. Falling into a pit trap could leave you Hampered 10 from a broken leg. Getting knocked to 0 Hit Points or having an enemy critically succeed on an attack against you could inflict a head injury that's represented with Stupefied 2.

Luceon wrote:
Also there is a reason why hit points alone have been the way 95% of RPGs have handled the game, Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, stamina, the skill to turn a powerful strike into a lesser powerful strike, the will to live, and luck. So yes hit points are abstract, they have served the hobby well for many years, we also have temp hp, that can simulate stamina also.

I'm usually a fan of the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought, but in this case I think it is broken, not because old-school hit points are bad, but because Pathfinder 2.0 is a very different beast from, say, D&D 2nd Edition. PF 2.0 is more high fantasy; an 8th level barbarian can literally turn into a bear when they Rage, a 12th level one can sprout wings or punch a wall of force into nothing. Characters are a lot larger than life, so mechanics that reflect (for example) exceptional recovery times make a lot of sense.

Silver Crusade

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Something I'm curious about, for all of those who are saying the Stamina system allowed them to adventure longer without a healer, how many groups had an Envoy aka Stamina healer?


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Luceon wrote:


This is the reason I also hate Stamina systems, it's as if the party gets a long rest between challenges.

You don't get spells, resolve points, or most other things back. In fact you lose a Resolve point to get the Stamina back, which makes travelling on MORE dangerous: Resolve is what you use to stabilize from the Dying condition! It's actually a fairly good example of what you claim to want, a risk/reward system, because you can continue on, but you might run out of resolve in a tough fight and die. I've seen it happen.

It also doesn't do anything for all of the poisons, diseases, and conditions that are the real threats in Starfinder.

Quote:
The stamina system is just a disingenuous way of letting the party have 5 min work days.

"5 minute work day" doesn't mean what you think it means.

Quote:
It becomes extremely difficult to have attrition in your game with stamina systems, which in turn guts the game of a very strategic and gratifying part of the challenges, many traps and hazards will become meaningless, imagine trying to GM a Dark Sun game.

My guess is that you haven't run into a trap in Starfinder yet. Every one I've seen does a ridiculous amount of damage and are intended to cut right through your Stamina and into your hit points. Regardless, even if it only hits your stamina, you're taking a risk moving on without spending a resolve point.

Quote:
Also there is a reason why hit points alone have been the way 95% of RPGs have handled the game, Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, stamina, the skill to turn a powerful strike into a lesser powerful strike, the will to live, and luck. So yes hit points are abstract, they have served the hobby well for many years

"Don't change it, it's the way we've done it forever." That's about the WORST reason not to change something. Just because most systems were too lazy to come up with a better system, you don't want to change? And to be clear, Hit Points still exist with the Stamina system, it's just a slightly greater abstraction. With all the crunch of Pathfinder, you'd think that tracking two linear pools of health wouldn't be that big a deal.

Quote:
we also have temp hp, that can simulate stamina also.

You're willing to simulate Stamina but not have Stamina? This isn't making any sense.


Rysky wrote:
Something I'm curious about, for all of those who are saying the Stamina system allowed them to adventure longer without a healer, how many groups had an Envoy aka Stamina healer?

I play Starfinder Society, and my group is never set.

I love it when we do have an Envoy, but we pulled a dungeon crawl the other day with two soldiers, a technomancer, and an operative. No healers of any sort. That is not an unusual state of affairs in SFS.

Also, not all Envoys are able to heal Stamina; they have to take a particular improvisation.

Scarab Sages

Zman0 wrote:
Luceon wrote:
Azih wrote:

You know, this thread has made me think back on the speculative fiction I enjoy and yeah there aren't any dedicated healers along for the adventure pretty much ever.

IMO as long as we have a guaranteed 1-2 herop points after a long rest, this works. Sure, it is at DM discretion about awarding additional ones, but so it literally everything ie encounter design, if characters can rest, if their rest is interrupted, etc.

Why would you want to incentivise the 5 min work day even more?

Using hero points for staminaesque healing isn’t a 5 minutes work day. You shouldn’t redefine generally accepted terms for arguments sake.

Using a resource, with a real opportunity cost, to continue on during the day so other resources can continually be depleted is very different that indiscriminately using resources to retreat for a full reset. Saying otherwise is disengenuous.

The reason I brought this up, is that if this guy was GMing and giving the party 2 hero points after a long rest, I would long rest every chance I got I would long rest after every fight, so that I started every fight with 2 hero points. Take doomsday level 1 dungeon for example. I would rest between every combat and get 2 hero points for each fight. The adventure allows you that much time. I realize that some adventures would not allow this but many of them do. Don’t we get enough perks resting overnight already, why add even more to that like 2 hero points.


That behavior is already strongly incentivized by the rules. "I want to always have all of my spells and spell points and resonance, so I will rest after every fight if I possibly can". If the adventure allows unlimited time and no consequences for retreating, it's always going to be the safest option.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dracomicron wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Something I'm curious about, for all of those who are saying the Stamina system allowed them to adventure longer without a healer, how many groups had an Envoy aka Stamina healer?

I play Starfinder Society, and my group is never set.

I love it when we do have an Envoy, but we pulled a dungeon crawl the other day with two soldiers, a technomancer, and an operative. No healers of any sort. That is not an unusual state of affairs in SFS.

Also, not all Envoys are able to heal Stamina; they have to take a particular improvisation.

*nods*


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Rysky wrote:
Something I'm curious about, for all of those who are saying the Stamina system allowed them to adventure longer without a healer, how many groups had an Envoy aka Stamina healer?

I play in 2 Starfinder games and am currently running 1. An envoy PC is present in the games I play in, but they don't have the stamina buffs/recovery abilties (at least, not yet). It hasn't been an issue and we're able to press on. If we had a big fight, everyone can use the 10-minute rest.

We are able to play longer, so no 15-min adventuring day.

We are still effective in subsequent combats.

We have resources to manage. (Stamina, Resolve Points)

"Pressing on" carries risks as Resolve Points go down.

Hit Points require longer healing. Everyone reacts to it as "real damage" and the true barometer for retreating and resting.

My mystic is still relevant for healing hit point damage and treating poison and disease but I don't have to center his build around healing.

Envoy stamina recovery is icing rather than the cake. It isn't required by a long shot.


Luceon wrote:
Zman0 wrote:
Luceon wrote:
Azih wrote:

You know, this thread has made me think back on the speculative fiction I enjoy and yeah there aren't any dedicated healers along for the adventure pretty much ever.

IMO as long as we have a guaranteed 1-2 herop points after a long rest, this works. Sure, it is at DM discretion about awarding additional ones, but so it literally everything ie encounter design, if characters can rest, if their rest is interrupted, etc.

Why would you want to incentivise the 5 min work day even more?

Using hero points for staminaesque healing isn’t a 5 minutes work day. You shouldn’t redefine generally accepted terms for arguments sake.

Using a resource, with a real opportunity cost, to continue on during the day so other resources can continually be depleted is very different that indiscriminately using resources to retreat for a full reset. Saying otherwise is disengenuous.

The reason I brought this up, is that if this guy was GMing and giving the party 2 hero points after a long rest, I would long rest every chance I got I would long rest after every fight, so that I started every fight with 2 hero points. Take doomsday level 1 dungeon for example. I would rest between every combat and get 2 hero points for each fight. The adventure allows you that much time. I realize that some adventures would not allow this but many of them do. Don’t we get enough perks resting overnight already, why add even more to that like 2 hero points.

No one I play with would do that. I can tell you that behavior would have you unanimously booted at my table. A long rest will always come with a substantial reward for retreating. Spell slots alone are a bigger incentive with the Hero Point reset would being a minor additional incentive for that... distasteful behavior.

What my suggestion does allow if for parties to feel less necessity to do that and builds in a tool for DMs to work around the necessity.

The real crux if the problem is an adventure being written in a way that allows that. Doomsday Dawn is special, as it doesn’t want to limit a party’s ability to rest when needed. In fact, they gain valuable information from it ie parties with a cleric are vastly more likely to have completed the dungeon in a single day.

Had the dungeon been constructed differently, it could be done in a way that promoted greater vetmisillitude. Ie you have a three day timer, and depending on when you fallback the enemies can be reinforced increasing the threat more adequate for the fully rested party. Or maybe an ambush. Or, if it’s too late, the boss could retreat, conceding and robbing the PCs of some loot. Either way, there should be consequences for when PCs abuse rest mechanics. IMO, we don’t want people resting likes it’s a video game dungeon where you could nova each fight except for the occasional level that disallowed it.

The suggested hero point mechanic and additional long rest reset does not fundamentall change the reward dynamic of falling back repeatedly, what it does do it allow greater flexibility in pressing forward while reducing the necessity to fallback.


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I'm casting raise thread on this thread to give an additional 2 cents on this topic following the inclusion of Treat Wounds. That being: I still prefer stamina. Presently, treat wounds is too strong I feel. The only cost to its use is time, the DC is low enough that only a crit fail is meaningful, and with sufficient time the party can do a full reset after each fight.

I'll confess that in my group, I've ruled that since a good aid check is likely enough to prevent a critical failure from being a reality in the vast majority of cases, we will forego rolling for it. This is because treat wounds VERY quickly became tedious to play "by the books", the party would just determine how much time they wanted to spend treating wounds, and we'd apply the healing.

In pale mountain's shadow especially falls apart under this system. Whereas before the party has to stop and start and rest often, in the new system they can finish half the adventure in one day.

My vision for why stamina would improve this scenario is as follows:

Since stamina refreshes with a 10 minute rest, resting players will always have at least half their health resources available.

Players will need to make the choice between resting or preparing for the next assault. (certain adventures come to mind as places where individuals resting to restore stamina would be much more interesting than one person treating wounds while another builds a barricade --- "stand still i need to bandage you" doesn't make much sense, how can these be done simultaneously?)

If players want to get up to full HP, they MUST use magical healing resources, battle medic, natural medicine, or sleep.

Parties who play smartly and mitigate damage as best they can will end combats with only a 10 minute rest needed to get up and going again, but parties who lost a lot of hit points must pony up and spend resources to get back into fighting shape.

Treat wounds as I've seen it played is not very fun, and I'd greatly prefer for stamina to make it into the core game.

At this time, this is on my shortlists to house rule.

Curious what others think

Liberty's Edge

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I am still firmly in the "Cut everyones HP bar in half and make it Stamina" camp.

Stamina allows for a multitude of new and interesting mechanics, allows PCs to "feel" winded without needing to artificially apply a fatigued condition, and allow them to play the Risk/Reward game more often. PLUS it plays to the flavor that not EVERYTHING can be instantly healed up with a just a magic spell.

Allowing for 2-3 short breaks a day to restore Stamina and giving the Occult, Divine, and Primal Spells lists access to a Stamina Restoring spell will help go a LONG way towards allowing a Party to leave town without the currently mandatory Cleric in tow.

Exo-Guardians

BPorter wrote:

I play in 2 Starfinder games and am currently running 1. An envoy PC is present in the games I play in, but they don't have the stamina buffs/recovery abilties (at least, not yet). It hasn't been an issue and we're able to press on. If we had a big fight, everyone can use the 10-minute rest.

We are able to play longer, so no 15-min adventuring day.

We are still effective in subsequent combats.

We have resources to manage. (Stamina, Resolve Points)

"Pressing on" carries risks as Resolve Points go down.

Hit Points require longer healing. Everyone reacts to it as "real damage" and the true barometer for retreating and resting.

My mystic is still relevant for healing hit point damage and treating poison and disease but I don't have to center his build around healing.

Envoy stamina recovery is icing rather than the cake. It isn't required by a long shot.

I have two characters I break out depending on what level of moderate insanity I'm feeling, my Envoy, who is actually a combat medic with too many stim packs, and an assault rifle, I don't heal stamina with that, in fact I do more combat than I do medic, though there has been times when I've had to shoot a soldier or mechanic up with a healing serum and maybe some other meds if they ate something they shouldn't have. It feels nice to be able to heal up if needed, but I mostly focus on the combat part of being a field medic.

The other character I play is a Mechanic geared for extreme computer hacking. No healing, not much HP, not much Stamina, basically a malnourished college student, I get concerned when I get hit, but unless I start taking HP damage I'm still willing to go on as long as I have resolve.


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Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:

I'm casting raise thread on this thread to give an additional 2 cents on this topic following the inclusion of Treat Wounds. That being: I still prefer stamina. Presently, treat wounds is too strong I feel. The only cost to its use is time, the DC is low enough that only a crit fail is meaningful, and with sufficient time the party can do a full reset after each fight.

I'll confess that in my group, I've ruled that since a good aid check is likely enough to prevent a critical failure from being a reality in the vast majority of cases, we will forego rolling for it. This is because treat wounds VERY quickly became tedious to play "by the books", the party would just determine how much time they wanted to spend treating wounds, and we'd apply the healing.

In pale mountain's shadow especially falls apart under this system. Whereas before the party has to stop and start and rest often, in the new system they can finish half the adventure in one day.

My vision for why stamina would improve this scenario is as follows:

Since stamina refreshes with a 10 minute rest, resting players will always have at least half their health resources available.

Players will need to make the choice between resting or preparing for the next assault. (certain adventures come to mind as places where individuals resting to restore stamina would be much more interesting than one person treating wounds while another builds a barricade --- "stand still i need to bandage you" doesn't make much sense, how can these be done simultaneously?)

If players want to get up to full HP, they MUST use magical healing resources, battle medic, natural medicine, or sleep.

Parties who play smartly and mitigate damage as best they can will end combats with only a 10 minute rest needed to get up and going again, but parties who lost a lot of hit points must pony up and spend resources to get back into fighting shape.

Treat wounds as I've seen it played is not very fun, and I'd greatly prefer for stamina to make it into the core game....

Preach it, brother! 100% agree.


Dracomicron wrote:
Dimity wrote:
One thing I have considered changing about the mechanic, however (and I'm not sure how to go about it), would be to have critical hits always interact with hp in some way. Whether that means applying the bonus critical hit damage to hp, or the entire hit to hp, or some other split I have no idea. But I like the idea of criticals causing *actual wounds* that last.
I think that one of the Star Wars games had that mechanic, where you had stamina and health, and most hits took stamina off first, but a critical didn't do much more damage, but it dealt damage directly to health. If you hit them hard enough, you could take someone out with one shot, despite their full stack of stamina.

Original d20 SW, I had a GREAT time running that game!

AC was replaced with Defense, and armor only provided DR, which only applied when you were critically hit.

I added a house-rule that ranged attacks always did wound damage unless you were in cover(or were a jedi;)

If I were going to add that system to PF2, I would require spending an action to dive, take evasive action, etc. unless you had a shield or were in cover.

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