Monks with less than 16 Dex are a trap.


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"Hold a weapon you are not proficient in so you can parry with it" is something that is very unlikely to survive the playtest.

Of course, so is "monks are proficient in no weapons".


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

"Hold a weapon you are not proficient in so you can parry with it" is something that is very unlikely to survive the playtest.

Of course, so is "monks are proficient in no weapons".

Considering that trying to do so with an item dedicated to "parry" attacks like a Light shield doesn't even work if you're not proficient with it, I agree.

Hence I keep pointing it out so that it can be fixed (because, frankly, it's stupid)

But I also want the whole shield proficiency rules to burn in hell.

I mean, if you're expert/master/legendary with your armor, and trained in shields, somehow losing AC by raising your shield is plain stupidity.

Shields should be either untrained or trained and be done with.

At most, you can have expert/master/legendary proficiency in shields raising their hardness/dents, but certainly NOT lowering your AC.

Grand Lodge

Mathmuse wrote:
shroudb wrote:

you don't need monastic weapons, or any sort of proficiency, to Parry with a Bo staff.

actually, since Bo's are twohanded, it's better, even for monks, to use a main-gause since it's one handed and gives the same +1.

but keep in mind, that some stances (wolf/tiger/crane) require your hands to deal their respective stance strikes, not "any body part" as per simply unarmed attacks (and dragon stance requires your legs, but that's besides the point).

I had not noticed that the bo staff is two-handed. I mix up bo staff and jo staff. Thank you for pointing that out. Under the current rules, changing the grip to two-handed takes an action. The dwarven clan dagger is also a one-handed parry weapon, but they are uncommon.

I added a correction to my comment in which proficiency might matter. If using a weapon with untrained proficiency to parry, would the monk's proficiency for AC drop to untrained?

Man it's satisfying to come back a few weeks later and find like minded individuals working together to form a solution. Makes me optimistic for the final release.

I really hope that this will happen, maybe just add the parry to monastic weapons feat but still have the separate feat for the "shield block" section?

Also, on the improvised weapon sections, wouldn't the broom just be considered a staff? and once broken, be considered clubs? I may be drawing some inspiration from the dreaded 5e, but I think its a solid point. I think a staff getting broken and downgrading to two clubs with the fragile condition is reasonable. your thoughts?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Gaterie, I'm curious what playtest experience you have had that you seem to find the game so unforgivingly deadly. Is Collete your GM or something?

I do agree that monks are a bit of a glass cannon right now. I wish their natural boost to armor was more than a +1; even just a +2 would probably be sufficient.

But with the ability to move, attack twice, and then move again, they are pretty effective glass cannons against anything that can't AoO (or has already wasted its reaction).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think in particular for low level monks (who do not get armor unlike other people who are expected to hang out in punching range) they really need some sort of defensive reaction like everybody else has access to.

I'd love for them to have a "Stepside" reaction* that lets them take a Step when they're targeted with a melee Strike (often forcing the attacker to burn an action to follow them). Seems to fit the hit & run flavor of the Monk.

*I know a feat of this name already exists but I think the current version is a bit lackluster.


MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that monks are a bit of a glass cannon right now. I wish their natural boost to armor was more than a +1; even just a +2 would probably be sufficient.

Odd thing is that once bracers of armor get into the picture, you get good at AC. A level 20 24 Dex monk with +5 Bracers has the highest AC and touch AC in the game, pretty much. High level monks have great defenses, low level monks are incredibly squishy; I am not sure how to fix this short of "frontload the class more."


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
I do agree that monks are a bit of a glass cannon right now. I wish their natural boost to armor was more than a +1; even just a +2 would probably be sufficient.
Odd thing is that once bracers of armor get into the picture, you get good at AC. A level 20 24 Dex monk with +5 Bracers has the highest AC and touch AC in the game, pretty much. High level monks have great defenses, low level monks are incredibly squishy; I am not sure how to fix this short of "frontload the class more."

keep in mind, that both bracers +5 and weapon/handwraps +5 are both a level 20 item.

you may even not have a level 20 item at level 20, let alone 2.


Azih wrote:

Uh, pretty much everything I wanted to communicate is in the subject.

To elaborate a little bit.

There's of course going to be ways to build a character in a game like pathfinder that is terribly unoptimized. Like a Barbarian that puts all their boosts into mental stats or an alchemist that doesn't boost int for whatever reason...

What makes the Monk a little different is that it's pretty MAD. It benefits from Str, Dex, Con, and Wis and it is very easy for someone to think that they should be able to mix and match these according to their character concepts.

Except that you can't make a slow bruiser that focuses Str and Con or a hard hitting mystic that boosts Str and Wis and leaves Dex behind as Dex is the ONLY way that I have found that can boost the monk's AC to an acceptable level for a melee martial class. It has to get at least three boosts in charater creation, if not four.

Monks need DEX then STR, CON and WIS are just nice to have.

Fists are finesse weapons so a monk can do all their attacks using DEX on their to hit roll. As magical weapons (handwraps) become available they gain extra damage dice and being a point or two behind in STR is less of a concern. Though it still effects your athletics rolls including Trip, Disarm, Grapple Shove.

They have a real problem with AC. Monks start lower than all the other classes who melee. They can all get to the design limit of AC bonus plus DEX modifier = 7, but Monks just can't till higher levels. In this game AC is important because of the critical hit rules.

Personally I wouldn't start a monk without 18 DEX and 16 STR, and I'd always rank both stats as the character levels.

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