paizo.com Recent Posts in Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedpaizo.com Recent Posts in Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headed2018-09-10T18:05:15Z2018-09-10T18:05:15ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedArrow17https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#862018-09-11T11:43:48Z2018-09-11T08:39:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tiona Daughtry wrote:</div><blockquote> Now let me say, I've played lots of variations off of D&d, and really got into the older pathfinder. However, I've noticed a strong bias in recent years, across the board, and definitely affecting this playtest version, toward 'absolute balance', and I'm going to illustrate why that's a problem. Perhaps as background, I should point out that I personally have been dealing with a host of mental and physical difficulties all my life, and one of the things I have always loved about rpgs is that you can take a character with pretty significant drawbacks, and really make them shine, with a little work. The problem I see right now is that this game and others are trying to basically demand that all player characters be on essentially the same level playing field. It does not really allow for what I consider 'exceptional' characters, because no one is really 'unbalanced' enough to show that even characters with significant drawbacks are valuable in the right situation. I resent the ableist viewpoint that you shouldn't go to 'extremes' with a character. It's a personal shot against people like me who have limitations but find ways to adapt to them. It is, therefore, a significant disappointment that the game industry in general is making it very difficult, if not impossible, to play characters that could be very fun to play, but require more delicate 'work' to put in. What I've seen of this makes it really, really hard to get into the game, because it's all a participation medal situation, rather than a challenge to be overcome with strategy and teamwork. It's too easy, too fair. And that's largely where it's going to lose players like my group. Because it simply isn't enough of a challenge to be fun. Sorry. I simply can't enjoy or support limiting players from expressing their uniqueness with characters that have such extremes. </blockquote><p>I agree with this post by the OP. If you look at the PF2 mechanics. They roughly boil down to a 50% chance if hitting an opponent of equal level based upon character optimization. The math is too tight and the stat generation system means you will be average at the vast majority of skills you try. PF2 does not seem to be an epic level fantasy game. It seems to be a grindTiona Daughtry wrote:Now let me say, I've played lots of variations off of D&d, and really got into the older pathfinder. However, I've noticed a strong bias in recent years, across the board, and definitely affecting this playtest version, toward 'absolute balance', and I'm going to illustrate why that's a problem. Perhaps as background, I should point out that I personally have been dealing with a host of mental and physical difficulties all my life, and one of the things I have always...Arrow172018-09-11T08:39:43ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedScythiahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#852018-09-11T08:16:33Z2018-09-11T08:16:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Laegrim wrote:</div><blockquote> It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?"</blockquote>It occurs to me, somewhat belatedly, that the Sin and Virtue Points from Rise of the Runelords and how they interacted with Runeforge are an example of precisely the sort of mechanics interacting directly with roleplay that I like and would like to see more of. </blockquote><p>That was probably my favourite part of running Anniversary RotRL for my group, keeping a tally card. I ended up adding new events and encounters based on the players' actions that would allow more chances for gaining points.the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:Laegrim wrote: It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?"
It occurs to me, somewhat belatedly, that the Sin and Virtue Points from Rise of the Runelords and how they interacted with Runeforge are an example of precisely the sort of mechanics interacting directly with roleplay that I like and would like to see more of. That was probably my favourite part of running...Scythia2018-09-11T08:16:33ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedVic Ferrarihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#842018-09-11T06:19:31Z2018-09-11T06:19:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Vic Ferrari wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :) </blockquote>According to some, that is all non-caster classes! </blockquote><p>Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing.
<p>One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon. </blockquote><p>Yeah, and take the Vow of Peace feat, and mean it!
<p>As I also DM much more than I play, I can commiserate. When I do play, I generally like a simpler character, it's a break from DMing (running complicated NPCs/monsters, the multiverse).</p>the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:Vic Ferrari wrote: thejeff wrote:
If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :)
According to some, that is all non-caster classes! Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing. One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon. Yeah, and take the Vow of Peace feat, and mean it! As I also DM much more than I...Vic Ferrari2018-09-11T06:19:31ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedEd Repperthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#832018-09-11T03:46:27Z2018-09-11T03:46:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Vic Ferrari wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :) </blockquote>According to some, that is all non-caster classes! </blockquote><p>Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing.
<p>One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon. </blockquote><p>Reminds me of a healer in Clan Lord, one of the first MMORPGs, and it's still going. Anyway the healer's name was Nohurt. He refused to even carry a weapon. :-)the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:Vic Ferrari wrote: thejeff wrote:
If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :)
According to some, that is all non-caster classes! Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing. One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon. Reminds me of a healer in Clan Lord, one of the first MMORPGs, and it's still going....Ed Reppert2018-09-11T03:46:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedthe nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarhhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#822018-09-11T00:28:04Z2018-09-11T00:28:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Laegrim wrote:</div><blockquote> It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?"</blockquote><p>It occurs to me, somewhat belatedly, that the Sin and Virtue Points from Rise of the Runelords and how they interacted with Runeforge are an example of precisely the sort of mechanics interacting directly with roleplay that I like and would like to see more of.Laegrim wrote:It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?"
It occurs to me, somewhat belatedly, that the Sin and Virtue Points from Rise of the Runelords and how they interacted with Runeforge are an example of precisely the sort of mechanics interacting directly with roleplay that I like and would like to see more of.the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh2018-09-11T00:28:04ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedthe nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarhhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#812018-09-11T10:25:47Z2018-09-10T23:45:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vic Ferrari wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :) </blockquote>According to some, that is all non-caster classes! </blockquote><p>Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing.
<p>One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon.</p>Vic Ferrari wrote:thejeff wrote:
If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :)
According to some, that is all non-caster classes! Personally, I love playing sidekick healbots; I DM much more than I play, and that role is relaxing. One of my lifelong goals is to take a character like that from 1st to 20th level without ever hitting an opponent with a weapon.the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh2018-09-10T23:45:55ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedLaegrimhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#802018-09-11T01:29:29Z2018-09-10T23:23:08Z<p>It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?" I'm glad it got brought up, because this is a question that really gets at the heart of one of my major concerns with 2E. </p>
<p>I've always viewed TTRPGs primarily as collaborative storytelling exercises, where the rules of the game form a contract between the DM and the players defining how the story will be told. Within this view the mechanics of how my character is built and how it works within the ruleset really do matter - they help guide and limit my characters roleplay, and shape my part of the story. A big reason I enjoy Pathfinder 1E, especially at this point in it's lifecycle, is that I can use the rules to build characters with the sort of mechanics that make for interesting roleplay. If I wanted to play a game where the mechanics didn't bind my roleplay so heavily I'd be playing something fundamentally different. Or writing round-robin short stories with my friends. </p>
<p>My concern with 2E is that characters lack that mechanical nuance and depth from 1E that allowed and encouraged nuanced and deep roleplay. To be fair, this is a playtest and not a system that's had years to accrete a broad set of supplemental rules. Even given this, it seems like in the drive to balance 2E the designers have taken away much of the opportunity for that depth and nuance. Proficiency is the biggest culprit, but the way stats are allocated, resonance, rarity, and the lack of multiclassing all play into that deficiency. These rules either take texture away from the game, as characters tend to be pretty much equally as good or bad at things as any other character, or feel like egregious limits.</p>
<p>TLDR: I agree some of the other posters in this thread that rules shape roleplay, and think that bland rules often mean bland roleplay. The attempts to balance 2E have made the rules kind of bland, in my opinion, by limiting opportunities to be extra good or bad at specific things, or generally limiting character opportunities. </p>
<p>Side Note: I don't think that rolling for stats is a good option here; if the idea is to be deliberately good or bad at things in the pursuit of crafting a specific kind of character the luck of the dice is not sufficient. Plus, I've seen rolling for stats cause way to many feel-bad moments.</p>It seems like the central debate in this thread can be summed up as "Should mechanics effect roleplay, and, if so, to what degree?" I'm glad it got brought up, because this is a question that really gets at the heart of one of my major concerns with 2E.
I've always viewed TTRPGs primarily as collaborative storytelling exercises, where the rules of the game form a contract between the DM and the players defining how the story will be told. Within this view the mechanics of how my character is...Laegrim2018-09-10T23:23:08ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedEd Repperthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#792018-09-10T20:49:48Z2018-09-10T20:49:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>You wind up with overpowered death machines trying desperately to avoid having to use those abilities they put so much effort into. </blockquote><p>Not in my experience with the game I mentioned.thejeff wrote:You wind up with overpowered death machines trying desperately to avoid having to use those abilities they put so much effort into.
Not in my experience with the game I mentioned.Ed Reppert2018-09-10T20:49:48ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedDarksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#782018-09-10T19:39:45Z2018-09-10T19:21:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Gamism superseded Simulationism for this edition.</p>
<p>It takes me out of the game knowing that it's a game first and a story/world second always. </blockquote><p>In my opinion, having it be a game first is a good thing. Generally, having it be primarily a dissociation from reality wasn't conveyed properly with it not being a game first, and there are several historical precedents supporting this, and any of you gamers of old most likely know what I'm referring to.
<p>I'm not saying having simulationism is badwrongfun or anything like that (the game still certainly has some of that aspect to it if done right), more that, from an objective standpoint, gamism makes for a more socially-progressive environment for players to feel comfortable playing in. That's something which makes players more inclined to join a table and have fun, and that's always a welcome sign in my eyes.</p>master_marshmallow wrote:Gamism superseded Simulationism for this edition.
It takes me out of the game knowing that it's a game first and a story/world second always.
In my opinion, having it be a game first is a good thing. Generally, having it be primarily a dissociation from reality wasn't conveyed properly with it not being a game first, and there are several historical precedents supporting this, and any of you gamers of old most likely know what I'm referring to. I'm not saying having...Darksol the Painbringer2018-09-10T19:21:45ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedRyan Freirehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#772018-09-10T22:07:31Z2018-09-10T18:19:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gorbacz wrote:</div><blockquote> So if a •player• with an arguably low IQ rolls an Int 18 Wizard, do you tell them that they need to quit playing the character because they can't realistically roleplay the rules? Will your group constantly pressure them to drop the "smart" aspect of the character? </blockquote><p>No what happens there is that the GM steps in with things an 18 int char may not overlook but the player might.Gorbacz wrote:So if a *player* with an arguably low IQ rolls an Int 18 Wizard, do you tell them that they need to quit playing the character because they can't realistically roleplay the rules? Will your group constantly pressure them to drop the "smart" aspect of the character?
No what happens there is that the GM steps in with things an 18 int char may not overlook but the player might.Ryan Freire2018-09-10T18:19:49ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedZoraehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#762019-09-15T04:59:25Z2018-09-10T18:04:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Irontruth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Zorae wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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Just because the rules have a lot of support for combat, doesn't mean role-playing isn't allowed as an option for circumventing it. </blockquote>Did someone claim that the game didn't allow role-playing? </blockquote><p>Tiona Daughtry's last three posts have made such claims. Alas, I am on mobile and doing quotes of multiple posts is more work than I'm willing to do. You'll have to scroll up some to read them.Irontruth wrote:Zorae wrote:
Just because the rules have a lot of support for combat, doesn't mean role-playing isn't allowed as an option for circumventing it.
Did someone claim that the game didn't allow role-playing? Tiona Daughtry's last three posts have made such claims. Alas, I am on mobile and doing quotes of multiple posts is more work than I'm willing to do. You'll have to scroll up some to read them.Zorae2018-09-10T18:04:44ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedTriOmegaZerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#752018-09-11T20:50:59Z2018-09-10T18:04:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">RazarTuk wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote>Taking Power Attack and Weapon Focus as a fighty-type isn't optimizing, it's just taking class appropiate feats. Taking a Spell Focus and Spell Penetration as a caster is not optimizing. It's just reading the feat section of the CRB and saying "that feat looks like it would help my class!". Which I think is something most players will want to do. And if not, your GM will probably glady help you out a bit.</blockquote>Spell Focus is complicated. I <i>would</i> call it optimization, but it's also required. A fighter's attack rolls will outpace enemy AC, even without feats, but a wizard actually needs those feats for DCs to stay competitive. </blockquote><p>Not a single one of my casters has taken Spell Focus for anything, as far as I recall.RazarTuk wrote:magnuskn wrote:Taking Power Attack and Weapon Focus as a fighty-type isn't optimizing, it's just taking class appropiate feats. Taking a Spell Focus and Spell Penetration as a caster is not optimizing. It's just reading the feat section of the CRB and saying "that feat looks like it would help my class!". Which I think is something most players will want to do. And if not, your GM will probably glady help you out a bit.
Spell Focus is complicated. I would call it optimization,...TriOmegaZero2018-09-10T18:04:38ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headednogoodscallywaghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#742018-09-10T17:56:01Z2018-09-10T17:56:01Z<p>Game balance is vital. Good players will find ways to have fun and create "unbalanced" characters. Every player has the option of removing one of their character's benefits in the interest of roleplaying: no GM should disallow this, anyway.</p>Game balance is vital. Good players will find ways to have fun and create "unbalanced" characters. Every player has the option of removing one of their character's benefits in the interest of roleplaying: no GM should disallow this, anyway.nogoodscallywag2018-09-10T17:56:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedIrontruthhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#732018-09-10T22:06:39Z2018-09-10T17:10:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zorae wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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Just because the rules have a lot of support for combat, doesn't mean role-playing isn't allowed as an option for circumventing it. </blockquote><p>Did someone claim that the game didn't allow role-playing?Zorae wrote:Just because the rules have a lot of support for combat, doesn't mean role-playing isn't allowed as an option for circumventing it.
Did someone claim that the game didn't allow role-playing?Irontruth2018-09-10T17:10:24ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedthejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#722018-09-10T22:06:25Z2018-09-10T16:39:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ed Reppert wrote:</div><blockquote> At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?" </blockquote><p>The other problem with making combat deadly so that players will try other solutions is that sometimes those other solutions fail and you wind up in a fight anyway. And then you're looking at a TPK if you haven't optimized your characters for combat.
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You wind up with overpowered death machines trying desperately to avoid having to use those abilities they put so much effort into.</p>Ed Reppert wrote:At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?"
The other problem with making combat deadly so that players will try other solutions is that sometimes those other...thejeff2018-09-10T16:39:14ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedVic Ferrarihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#712018-09-10T22:05:45Z2018-09-10T16:19:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ed Reppert wrote:</div><blockquote> At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?" </blockquote><p>Yeah, Arduin Grimoire has some outrageous critical hit results: "Buttocks torn off, fall. Shock."Ed Reppert wrote:At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?"
Yeah, Arduin Grimoire has some outrageous critical hit results: "Buttocks torn off, fall. Shock."Vic Ferrari2018-09-10T16:19:25ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedEd Repperthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#702018-09-10T15:57:29Z2018-09-10T15:57:29Z<p>At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?"</p>At least one game I know makes combat very deadly, and even if you survive you're likely to end up (explicitly) with scars and other bad results (lost fingers, hands, or other appendages, for example). One consequence of that is that people tend to avoid combat if at all possible. But I think most "high fantasy" RPG players would say "where's the fun in that?"Ed Reppert2018-09-10T15:57:29ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedZoraehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#692018-09-10T15:18:41Z2018-09-10T15:18:41Z<p>So the OP originally complained about lack of variation on starting abilities and that it meant party's were being too balanced and didn't leave room for people to be bad at things. And then shot down rolling for stats with no explanation for why as creating imbalanced characters is exactly what that does. </p>
<p>Now, they're complaining that apparently you can't circumvent combat with diplomacy or use the environment to your advantage when fighting people??? Where on Earth do the rules state that diplomacy is no longer a thing. Pretty sure it's a skill that exists. I'll give you that the rules don't really allow for attacking a chandelier to drop it on enemies, but everyone agrees that them leaving out rules for attacking an object seems to be an oversight as they do give plenty of support for the damaging of objects.</p>
<p>And with the upcoming removal of signature skills, any character will be able to be good at diplomacy or healing or whatever.</p>
<p>Just because the rules have a lot of support for combat, doesn't mean role-playing isn't allowed as an option for circumventing it.</p>So the OP originally complained about lack of variation on starting abilities and that it meant party's were being too balanced and didn't leave room for people to be bad at things. And then shot down rolling for stats with no explanation for why as creating imbalanced characters is exactly what that does.
Now, they're complaining that apparently you can't circumvent combat with diplomacy or use the environment to your advantage when fighting people??? Where on Earth do the rules state that...Zorae2018-09-10T15:18:41ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedVic Ferrarihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#682018-09-10T14:34:01Z2018-09-10T14:34:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">glass wrote:</div><blockquote><p>OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
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</blockquote>Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a playstyle it would be good if the game supported along with more balanced parties? </blockquote><p>That's fair, but it should be design, not "I picked the wrong class or made the wrong build choices, so I wound up playing second fiddle when I wanted to shine myself."
<p>If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :) </blockquote><p>According to some, that is all non-caster classes!thejeff wrote:the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote: glass wrote:OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a...Vic Ferrari2018-09-10T14:34:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedthejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#672018-09-10T22:04:34Z2018-09-10T13:43:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">glass wrote:</div><blockquote><p>OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
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</blockquote>Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a playstyle it would be good if the game supported along with more balanced parties? </blockquote><p>That's fair, but it should be design, not "I picked the wrong class or made the wrong build choices, so I wound up playing second fiddle when I wanted to shine myself."
<p>If there's a Sidekick class, that's a different story. :)</p>the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:glass wrote:OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a playstyle it...thejeff2018-09-10T13:43:33ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedthe nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarhhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#662018-09-11T20:49:21Z2018-09-10T13:07:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">glass wrote:</div><blockquote><p>OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
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</blockquote><p>Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a playstyle it would be good if the game supported along with more balanced parties?glass wrote:OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
Can we please stop default assuming that playing a sidekick, or characters with widely differing amounts of agency generally, must always be less fun? Rather than a playstyle it would be good if the game supported...the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh2018-09-10T13:07:32ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedBjørn Røyrvikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#652018-09-11T20:48:58Z2018-09-09T10:30:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">glass wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lyricanna wrote:</div><blockquote><b>Balance for Balance's Sake is NEVER a good idea. Ever.</b></blockquote><p>OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
<p>-
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glass.
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</blockquote><p>Which Lyricanna also said over the next three sentences.glass wrote:Lyricanna wrote:Balance for Balance's Sake is NEVER a good idea. Ever.
OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea. -
glass.
Which Lyricanna also said over the next three sentences.Bjørn Røyrvik2018-09-09T10:30:19ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedglasshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#642019-09-20T14:52:27Z2018-09-09T10:01:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lyricanna wrote:</div><blockquote><b>Balance for Balance's Sake is NEVER a good idea. Ever.</b></blockquote><p>OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea.
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glass.</p>Lyricanna wrote:Balance for Balance's Sake is NEVER a good idea. Ever.
OTOH, balance for the sake of making sure one player's fun is not diminished because he ends up playing a sidekick, or another player's fun is not diminished because she is constantly having to pull her punches to avoid overshaddowing others, is always a good idea. -
glass.glass2018-09-09T10:01:17ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedTiona Daughtryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#632018-09-10T17:19:13Z2018-09-09T09:36:23Z<p>perhaps, to me, one of the most integral parts of role playing is that the rules allow, and possibly encourage, solving any given situation 'off-script'. By strictly limiting the range of possible actions and the viability of any option, you make it difficult to impossible to solve challenges in a way that is 'unexpected'. Forcing us to follow a script to succeed at encounters is not 'role play'. It is in a way forbidding us to even consider alternate viewpoints or solutions. There was something I saw in either 3.0/3.5 or Pathfinder 1 that is important. Experience is generally awarded for overcoming a difficulty, rather than merely killing monsters or disarming a trap. By focusing on 'anything that neutralizes the problem' as acceptable, you have all sorts of options available, and it doesn't seem that this edition really considers that a lot of us do, in fact, want to be able to solve things all sorts of different ways.</p>perhaps, to me, one of the most integral parts of role playing is that the rules allow, and possibly encourage, solving any given situation 'off-script'. By strictly limiting the range of possible actions and the viability of any option, you make it difficult to impossible to solve challenges in a way that is 'unexpected'. Forcing us to follow a script to succeed at encounters is not 'role play'. It is in a way forbidding us to even consider alternate viewpoints or solutions. There was...Tiona Daughtry2018-09-09T09:36:23ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Disappointment in direction game (and rpgs in general) are headedTiona Daughtryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42921&page=2?Disappointment-in-direction-game-are-headed#622018-09-10T21:16:36Z2018-09-09T08:47:49Z<p>Having characters that are mechanically different on several levels, does, in fact, allow and encourage parties to alter their approach to obstacles to favor a specific combination of skills/talents/etc. With everything being so mechanically equal, it really doesn't seem that this ruleset even considers that your paladin is much more concerned with converting the enemy than killing them. Or that your fighter might have an interest in engineering, and see how he could cause a rock fall that would eliminate the threat the enemy poses. It is, in fact, largely based on what you focus on and how you attune it. Also, no one being really good at anything is completely unenjoyable. And the rules as written seem to enforce this standpoint. It is hard to make the story 'about the characters' if they don't really have any choices in how they handle the situations. If they have to approach just about every encounter the same way, well, a lot of us will simply give up and find something else to do. It's not engaging, and not allowing us to feel ourselves as doing anything worthwhile. And that last is, in fact, important.</p>Having characters that are mechanically different on several levels, does, in fact, allow and encourage parties to alter their approach to obstacles to favor a specific combination of skills/talents/etc. With everything being so mechanically equal, it really doesn't seem that this ruleset even considers that your paladin is much more concerned with converting the enemy than killing them. Or that your fighter might have an interest in engineering, and see how he could cause a rock fall that...Tiona Daughtry2018-09-09T08:47:49Z