Consume all the base clases


General Discussion


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Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot of the class feat lists to be, restrictive. I'm no fan of the level gating, and I think it's there to make the game more complicated than it has to be. Plus, not all the feats are balanced at all levels creating some dead choices.

When trying to think of ways to fix this, I thought about the fact that a lot of the old combat feats are incorporated into the new weapon traits. Finesse, TWF, etc. When considering this, I came to the conclusion that each weapon trait oughta have more influence on combat more directly in the numbers, rather than mandating a feat. For instance, heavy weapons like the greatsword could include a trait called [Powerful] or some such jargon to have an effect similar to the titan mauler. Sluggish 1 in exchange for double/triple/quad STR modifier depending on the weapon quality. But what would that mean for feats?

I want the long incremental chains to die in a fire. I'd rather have a short list of powerful options that scaled based on level/proficiency. In PF1 most classes had large pools of abilities before 10th level and after. This granted a lot of freedom with the builds and should be looked at.

For ideas, consider taking the best of the base classes from before and simply consuming them into the core classes here:

Alchemist- Investigator, Occultist
Barbarian- Bloodrager, Skald
Bard- Mesmerist, Summoner, Spiritualst
Cleric- warpriest (kinda there already and it shows)
Druid- Shaman, Shifter
Fighter- Brawler (more), Gunslinger
Monk- Kineticist, Ninja
Ranger- Slayer, Hunter
Paladin- Cavalier, Samurai, Inquisitor
Rogue- Swashbuckler, Vigilante
Sorcerer- Oracle, Psychic, Shaman, Witch
Wizard- Magus, Arcanist

Ideally, we could have a small number of feats that cover what abilities overlapped these classes, and a couple that made them all distinct, and make two lists of feats, one for low levels, and one for high levels.


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Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.


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thflame wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.

I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

The level gated class feats are what makes character creation relatively fast and easy in PF2. Get back to the giant feat pool, and this is lost.


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gwynfrid wrote:
thflame wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.

I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

The level gated class feats are what makes character creation relatively fast and easy in PF2. Get back to the giant feat pool, and this is lost.

Then sort feats based on "class" but don't force people to stick to their class.

Compromises exist.

Furthermore, killing the character customization of PF1 will be a death sentence for this game. As it stands, I'd much rather play core 5e over PF2, as the customization is fairly similar, and a heck of a lot easier to play.


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gwynfrid wrote:
thflame wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.

I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

The level gated class feats are what makes character creation relatively fast and easy in PF2. Get back to the giant feat pool, and this is lost.

I'm saying this more because people are wanting far more options, varity, and "Oh we hate X do we HAVE to play the class with X".

Just go classless and maybe then we can stop all that.

It won't. But it'd be funny to see the reactions for a few days. What's the point of a Class if half is removable and no one seems to like the remaining half or goes "Hey but could we swap this out".

I dunno, maybe I'm getting bitter again. I'll take a week off from the playtest.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot of the class feat lists to be, restrictive. I'm no fan of the level gating, and I think it's there to make the game more complicated than it has to be. Plus, not all the feats are balanced at all levels creating some dead choices.

When trying to think of ways to fix this, I thought about the fact that a lot of the old combat feats are incorporated into the new weapon traits. Finesse, TWF, etc. When considering this, I came to the conclusion that each weapon trait oughta have more influence on combat more directly in the numbers, rather than mandating a feat. For instance, heavy weapons like the greatsword could include a trait called [Powerful] or some such jargon to have an effect similar to the titan mauler. Sluggish 1 in exchange for double/triple/quad STR modifier depending on the weapon quality. But what would that mean for feats?

I want the long incremental chains to die in a fire. I'd rather have a short list of powerful options that scaled based on level/proficiency. In PF1 most classes had large pools of abilities before 10th level and after. This granted a lot of freedom with the builds and should be looked at.

For ideas, consider taking the best of the base classes from before and simply consuming them into the core classes here:

Alchemist- Investigator, Occultist
Barbarian- Bloodrager, Skald
Bard- Mesmerist, Summoner, Spiritualst
Cleric- warpriest (kinda there already and it shows)
Druid- Shaman, Shifter
Fighter- Brawler (more), Gunslinger
Monk- Kineticist, Ninja
Ranger- Slayer, Hunter
Paladin- Cavalier, Samurai, Inquisitor
Rogue- Swashbuckler, Vigilante
Sorcerer- Oracle, Psychic, Shaman, Witch
Wizard- Magus, Arcanist

Ideally, we could have a small number of feats that cover what abilities overlapped these classes, and a couple that made them all distinct, and make two lists of feats, one for low levels, and one for high levels.

Different class breakdowns:

Classes that are just a tweaks difference from each other and could be handled with something similar to orders, totems, muses, bloodlines, archetypes, or feat chains are:
* Cavalier and Samurai
* Rogue and Ninja
* Oracle and Shaman
* Monk and Brawler
* Wizard, Witch, and Arcanist

Classes on a continuum (or that should be) are:
* Fighter - Ranger - Swashbuckler - Rogue - Slayer - Ranger - Fighter
* Fighter - Barbarian - Bloodrager - Sorcerer
* Fighter - Magus - Wizard
* Fighter - Ranger - Hunter - Druid
* Fighter - Cavalier - Paladin - Cleric
* Alchemist - Investigator - Rogue
* Fighter - Barbarian - Skald - Bard

Groups of classes that would be hard to draw the line between in history, folklore, mythology, and literature are:
* Cavalier and Paladin
* Alchemist, Wizard, Arcanist
* Wizard, Druid, Shaman, Witch
* Mesmerist and Psychic
* Oracle, Medium, Spiritualist, Witch, Psychic, Summoner, Sorcerer
* Rogue, Swashbuckler, Vigilante
* Ninja and Slayer
* Fighter, Ranger, Swashbuckler, and Rogue
* Oracle, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Witch
* Shifter, Bloodrager, Druid, Shaman
* Hunter, Ranger, Barbarian

High Tier Physical Combatants (High BAB):
* Fighter, Swashbuckler, Cavalier, Samurai, Ranger, Barbarian, Shifter, Paladin, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler

High Tier Spellcasters:
* Wizard, Arcanist, Witch, Sorcerer, Druid, Oracle, Shaman, Psychic, and Cleric

Mid Tier Physical Combatants (Mid BAB):
* Rogue, Ninja, Vigilante, Magus, Monk, Investigator, Summoner, Hunter, Warpriest, Oracle, Cleric, Bard, Alchemist

Mid Tier Spellcasters:
* Alchemist, Magus, Bard, Summoner, Hunter, Investigator, Mesmerist, Warpriest, Skald, Inquisitor, Spiritualist

Classes with Companions:
* Druid, Hunter, Summoner, Cavalier, Samurai, Spiritualist, Paladin, Ranger

Scarab Sages

I would keep class feat locked but :

- Allow WEAKER version for the other classes (general feat or dedication feat) for some abilities (definitively not all of them and not the iconic ones).
You want some AAO ? Sure but take a -4 while the fighter has -2. Maybe a weaker trigger also.
You want Ki power ? Go Monk or rot in Hell.

I don't know the righ balance but you get the idea.

- End chain feats. You put a feat and it scales as you level up. Sneak attack scale Alone but you currently need 2 feats to increase your ability to use poison on weapon. Just make it one feat that is upgraded automatically at one predetermined level.

Note that this would need that each class have 2 or 3 times more feats that currently to have a good variability between builds. This won't work in the currently system.


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gwynfrid wrote:
thflame wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.

I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

The level gated class feats are what makes character creation relatively fast and easy in PF2. Get back to the giant feat pool, and this is lost.

Star Wars Saga Edition had no level gated talents, and only had at most 2 prerequisite talents. It failed to produce the character generation problems you think will happen. If characters got more than one talent at once this might be a problem, but they don't so it's not. All a beginner has to do is look at the list and see something that looks interesting for them. If a player wants to be a tank in Saga, they'll look at things like Draw Fire or Armor Mastery. Hardly "impossible to navigate". When I made these examples for how a Soldier 5 could do multiple different things in just core (for the record, the second Devastating Attack in example 3 should be Penetrating Attack) I just looked at the mere 20 core talents and picked ones that synergized well

Speaking of Saga Edition, PF2E could follow the example of it, d20 modern and Unearthed Arcana (generic classes) that began the concept of selected class abilities over fixed ones in a d20 system and have fewer classes. Why have fighter, barbarian, paladin, monk, ranger as seperate classes when you can have one Warrior class with talent trees for rage, divine guidance, wilderness stalking, martial arts, ki manipulation, armor mastery, and weapon mastery (among others) that can be mixed and matched?


deuxhero wrote:


Speaking of Saga Edition, PF2E could follow the example of it, d20 modern and Unearthed Arcana (generic classes) all the way and decrease the number of classes. Why have fighter, barbarian, paladin, monk, ranger as seperate classes when you can have one Warrior class with talent trees for rage, divine guidance, wilderness stalking, martial arts, ki manipulation, armor mastery, and weapon mastery (among others)?

Yeah, like Fighter with kits ('scuse me, "arcehetypes") to fill out variants.

Then people want more variety and more codified abilities and new mechanics and they start pushing the limits of the generic classes you have, then you get new classes.


deuxhero wrote:
gwynfrid wrote:


I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

Star Wars Saga Edition had no level gated talents, and only had at most 2 prerequisite talents. It failed to produce the character generation problems you think will happen. If characters got more than one talent at once this might be a problem, but they don't so it's not. All a beginner has to do is look at the list and see something that looks interesting for them. If a player wants to be a tank in Saga, they'll look at things like Draw Fire or Armor Mastery. Hardly "impossible to navigate". When I made these examples for how a Soldier 5 could do multiple different things in just core (for the record, the second Devastating Attack in example 3 should be Penetrating Attack) I just looked at the mere 20 core talents and picked ones that synergized well

I don't know Saga. It's possible that a universally accessible list of feats works in other games. I know, however, that it doesn't work in PF1. I guess the difference is in the number of published feats. Does Paizo intend to publish less material moving forward, and would fans like it that way? I don't think so.


How many beginners start with every book at once instead of core only or core+some specific book?


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gwynfrid wrote:
thflame wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Just axe them at this rate. People want to play wahtever they want with nothing to hold them back.

I agree.

Have examples for people who want to play a "class" and just let people pick and choose which feats they want.

I disagree. This solution leads us to the massive feat database of PF1. Very hard to handle without tools for an experienced player, and impossible to navigate for a beginner.

The level gated class feats are what makes character creation relatively fast and easy in PF2. Get back to the giant feat pool, and this is lost.

One of the reasons it's impossible to navigate is that you can't see them all on the same page.

Pathfinder (and 3.5e) did a good job with the Feat Tree showing all the feats available.

Level gating feats (especially in the presence of feat trees) without providing a feat tree is what makes character creation painful, especially for a new player.


They seem set on these 12 classes.
I'll want those classes cleaned up, and the feat lists to be robust so I get actual choices.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:

They seem set on these 12 classes.

I'll want those classes cleaned up, and the feat lists to be robust so I get actual choices.

they have mentioned that witch will get their own class so I think we will get more. And I think the increase in class Feats to class lists will make this options happen given time. That increase is sort of a given


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lordredraven wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

They seem set on these 12 classes.

I'll want those classes cleaned up, and the feat lists to be robust so I get actual choices.
they have mentioned that witch will get their own class so I think we will get more. And I think the increase in class Feats to class lists will make this options happen given time. That increase is sort of a given

But I want a functional game at launch.

The game needs to work before we talk about supplements, because a failed game won't have them.


I've noticed that Mystic wasn't included among all of the other classes mentioned. I feel sad for my cursed friends.


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The Once and Future Kai wrote:
I've noticed that Mystic wasn't included among all of the other classes mentioned. I feel sad for my cursed friends.

It's the Oracle, not the Mystic. There is no class called "Mystic" in Pathfinder.


Could be...


Xenocrat wrote:
The Once and Future Kai wrote:
I've noticed that Mystic wasn't included among all of the other classes mentioned. I feel sad for my cursed friends.
It's the Oracle, not the Mystic. There is no class called "Mystic" in Pathfinder.

Derp. That's what I get for posting after my bedtime. Thanks for the correction! I did indeed mean Oracle...Mystic was a far less interesting spontaneous divine caster from the 3.5 Dragonlance Campaign Setting rulebook.


The Once and Future Kai wrote:
Mystic was a far less interesting spontaneous divine caster from the 3.5 Dragonlance Campaign Setting rulebook.

And it was the really awesome monk class in BECMI.

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