Excerpts from Dragoncon


General Discussion

Silver Crusade

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I attended the 2e panel hosted by Jason Bulmahn and John Compton so I'll do my best to remember stuff that was talked about. Just a forewarning that none of these were explicit "we're going to 100% do this", but more "how we're leaning/what we want to do".

Witches

Witches are well loved (and they have an in-game country full of them) and they have enough stuff to stand on their own mechanically that making them an Archetype would be a disservice, so "we'll get them sooner rather than later".

Paladins

Again they stated the reason they went with LG only for the Playtest was because there was absolutely no consensus anywhere on what people wanted from the Paladin (Group A, B, C, D wanted them to be LG only, Group E, F, G, H wanted them to be any Good, Group I, J, K, L wanted them to be any alignment, etc) but at this point there's little to no chance of an any/no alignment Paladin and they are instead heavily leaning towards paladins of Any Good "because that's [Good] the part that matters".

Ancestries

Bulmahn himself isn't happy with them atm, and he came up with them, that combined with the mostly negative feedback with how they're currently implemented means they are likely to get a major overhaul.

Location of Monster making rules

Bulmahn expressed interest in putting these somewhere else rather than in the first Bestiary which would a) mean not everyone has to buy the first Bestiary to make monsters and b) it would free up a lot of space in said bestiary for actual monsters. Where it would be moved? Core Rulebook? Gamemastery Guide? *shrugs* Thing's they're considering atm.

I'm definitely not remembering a whole lot, which there was, this is just bits that stood out to me.

P.S. Compton is a kickass GM.


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Cool, but aside from Ancestries, pretty particular, I would like to see some solid considerations/comments on over-aching stuff (+Level, 4-tiers of success, monster stats/maths, spells, etc).

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+1 to the previous comment. Paladin alignment is an easy thing to houserule in a blink, but when half of the spell list is unsatisfying, it might be the reason to play another game instead.

Thanks for sharing what you heard though, every piece of info from devs is great!

Silver Crusade

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Monster math and presentation was brought up so they are looking over that to fine tune it.

Spells weren't brought up by anyone. *shrugs*

(someone might have and it might have been answered real quick so I didn't catch it but I don't think so)

Silver Crusade

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Ancestry fixes and "Paladins of any Good alignment" sound, erm, good.


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Yep, I could get behind that.

Silver Crusade

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*nods*


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I SEVERELY hope the monster making rules are SOMEWHERE AT LAUNCH. And not released in some supplement later on. It is an ABSOLUTE MUST HAVE for me. My home brew world does not use ANY monsters from the bestiary, instead has its own entirely unique bestiary. So I must have some way to convert over all of my monsters from my current campaigns. I will be severely disappointed if its not there at launch.

Scarab Sages

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- Make that you pick at level 1 several racial feats that scale with level (kinda like cantrip with maybe choice when they are scaled)

- Supress Racial Feats when leveling (since you take several at level 1) and replace it with class feat (allowing combo between several "path" in a class and thus more versatility + open to multiclassing more easily)

- Add a lot of class feats (Trip reaction as Aoo for monk for example)

I would eventually try to homebrew this someday too see how well it works or if it is bad.

But my most important request is :

- Add naked dryade picture in the bestiary.

Silver Crusade

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Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:


- Add naked dryade picture in the bestiary.

As long as 80% of Pathfinder market is United States, not gonna happen.

Silver Crusade

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I suggest posting requests unrelated to the OP in another thread.

Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:
Add naked dryade picture in the bestiary.

We have gotten some sexy Dryad boys recently, that would be a nice sight.

Also all the puns :3


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Rysky wrote:

Location of Monster making rules

Bulmahn expressed interest in putting these somewhere else rather than in the first Bestiary which would a) mean not everyone has to buy the first Bestiary to make monsters and b) it would free up a lot of space in said bestiary for actual monsters. Where it would be moved? Core Rulebook? Gamemastery Guide? *shrugs* Thing's they're considering atm.

Would PF2e benefit from going back to having a Player's Guide and a Gamemaster's Guide? I guess it's still smaller than the PF1e CRB at the moment, but with all the extra mess of stuff that's apparently going to be added on top of the current layout issues, it might actually be worth considering. Maybe drop the prices down to match, so where the CRB would normally be $40 or something the two books are $20 apiece.


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Vic Ferrari wrote:
Cool, but aside from Ancestries, pretty particular, I would like to see some solid considerations/comments on over-aching stuff (+Level, 4-tiers of success, monster stats/maths, spells, etc).

I would think they'll touch more on those topics once they have playtest data from higher level adventures - with primarily only 1st level play to pull data from, a lot of spells and aspects of the proficiency system won't have come up yet.

Mark's been in a thread of two discussing how some of the monster stats may be off due to an earlier generation method, so some of that may be an easy fix as well.


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At this point, given all of the yelling, I'd be for removing paladin from the Core, and replacing it with an alignments Champion/Zealot class. Then, release paladin in a later book for folks who want that specific flavor.


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Good on you for sticking out the line for that panel, it wrapped most of the way around the building and I bailed on it.

Also Dragoncon was awesome, Jason DMed one of the quick players sessions I was in and he is incredibly fun to play with.

Silver Crusade

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MuddyVolcano wrote:
At this point, given all of the yelling, I'd be for removing paladin from the Core, and replacing it with an alignments Champion/Zealot class. Then, release paladin in a later book for folks who want that specific flavor.

And you honestly think that would reduce the yelling?

Silver Crusade

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Wolfism wrote:

Good on you for sticking out the line for that panel, it wrapped most of the way around the building and I bailed on it.

Also Dragoncon was awesome, Jason DMed one of the quick players sessions I was in and he is incredibly fun to play with.

I got there early is all ^w^

And awesome! I had a blast in the demon Compton ran for us.


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How is it that the Paladin LG alignment thing is still raging within the Pathfinder community, but nowadays I hear hardly a blip from anyone over the D&D5 Paladins and their acceptance of all alignments?

...and they did a darned good job of it, too, with the Oaths of Devotion and Redemption for 'traditional' Paladins, and the Oaths of Vengeance/Conquest/Oathbreaking for all those 'Eye for an Eye' and evil Paladins. I personally don't play paladins that often, so I just chalk it down to not understanding the nuances to the problem.


ENHenry wrote:
How is it that the Paladin LG alignment thing is still raging within the Pathfinder community, but nowadays I hear hardly a blip from anyone over the D&D5 Paladins and their acceptance of all alignments?

The "Paladins should be LG" philosophy is based largely on tradition - "That's what Paladins are in Golarion; people you can count on to help wherever they can. Why violate canon?"

Non-LG-Paladins have been around in D&D long enough that they're established as the new tradition.

Silver Crusade

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ENHenry wrote:
How is it that the Paladin LG alignment thing is still raging within the Pathfinder community, but nowadays I hear hardly a blip from anyone over the D&D5 Paladins and their acceptance of all alignments?

Oh there are arguments about it.

For why you haven't seen much I suppose it's simple, it's harder to publicly have things locked after they're out, and instead you just have GMs restricting in their home games as they see fit but also and mostly since starting debates about it won't accomplish anything. WotC don't have forums anymore do they?

Silver Crusade

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HWalsh incoming in 3,2,1...


ENHenry wrote:
How is it that the Paladin LG alignment thing is still raging within the Pathfinder community, but nowadays I hear hardly a blip from anyone over the D&D5 Paladins and their acceptance of all alignments?

Because pf1 was founded on sticking with the older generation of game. It was literally a coat of paint over 3.5's rules so they could keep playing.


I definitely want a non-good Paladin-esque class/variant for people who want to play the divinely enhanced warrior archetype.

Heck, just ban it from PFS and make it an optional class/archetype if you are worried about "cannon".

I'd also like Paladins that resemble Paladins, but that's PF2 for ya.


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Given what we've seen so far, I suspect the core elements of designing a witch to be fairly straightforward. I'd expect a Witch to be an int-based, prepared spellcaster that uses the Occult list. The choice of patron and familiar would be the baked in class ability (a la Wizard school or Sorceror bloodline), and hexes would come from Class Feats. Of course, I'm not claiming the design would be easy: balancing hexes will probably take some serious development to get right. But if someone wanted to homebrew a witch *right now*, I suspect they could do a pretty passable job at it.

Silver Crusade

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First World Bard wrote:
Given what we've seen so far, I suspect the core elements of designing a witch to be fairly straightforward. I'd expect a Witch to be an int-based, prepared spellcaster that uses the Occult list. The choice of patron and familiar would be the baked in class ability (a la Wizard school or Sorceror bloodline), and hexes would come from Class Feats. Of course, I'm not claiming the design would be easy: balancing hexes will probably take some serious development to get right. But if someone wanted to homebrew a witch *right now*, I suspect they could do a pretty passable job at it.

*nods*


Rysky wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
At this point, given all of the yelling, I'd be for removing paladin from the Core, and replacing it with an alignments Champion/Zealot class. Then, release paladin in a later book for folks who want that specific flavor.
And you honestly think that would reduce the yelling?

To a degree, yeah. I don't expect it to go away entirely. I would expect if Paizo fulfilled their promise and kept the community in the loop as the paladin was developed, it would go a long way. Communicating can generally be a good thing, and if your community has faith in you, it's even stronger.

The fighting and putdowns, snarking, and personal attacks, not a favorite part.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
How is it that the Paladin LG alignment thing is still raging within the Pathfinder community, but nowadays I hear hardly a blip from anyone over the D&D5 Paladins and their acceptance of all alignments?

The "Paladins should be LG" philosophy is based largely on tradition - "That's what Paladins are in Golarion; people you can count on to help wherever they can. Why violate canon?"

Non-LG-Paladins have been around in D&D long enough that they're established as the new tradition.

Well if we cared about tradition/canon, we wouldn't have core goblins... :P


thflame wrote:

I definitely want a non-good Paladin-esque class/variant for people who want to play the divinely enhanced warrior archetype.

Heck, just ban it from PFS and make it an optional class/archetype if you are worried about "cannon".

I'd also like Paladins that resemble Paladins, but that's PF2 for ya.

For my PF1 game, I've been trying to build an alternate class to the Paladin tentatively called "Champion", which would be a divine martial class that zealously ties to a code of conduct of a higher power or cause that don't necessarily have to be LG. Like other alternate classes, they would have some similar powers to the Paladin, but other different abilities to differentiate them.

I'd like for future editions to continue to have that one "absolutely good guy" class that the traditional LG Paladin provides. But I think another, less restrictive, divine warrior archetype is possible without needing to replace paladins.


From playtesting front - I personally ran a metric ton of PF2 Playtests at DragonCon.

I converted 4 5e groups to PF2 and got a new PFS Group to start on their PF2 experience.

It's safe to say, apart from a couple snags PF2 was well liked.


HWalsh wrote:
I converted 4 5e groups to PF2

Interesting, how did that come about, and is it permanent?


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Vic Ferrari wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
I converted 4 5e groups to PF2
Interesting, how did that come about, and is it permanent?

How?

I ran games.

Afterward they asked to talk to me. I walked them through things (like character creation) and explained the virtues of customization in the system. I showed some of my own builds, showing what I was able to do mechanically (Healadin, Chargadin, and Iomedean Sword Maiden from Paladin - A Ranger/Fighter Longbow Specialist, etc - Even a Clonk (Monk/Cleric))

A bunch of them had left a 10 hour Waterdeep game on Saturday that my roommates were in. My roomies had dragged them to me because they (utterly) hated the event and (being their first exposure to 5e) had turned them off to it. I was tapped to run for them.

So I did, they liked my PF2 adventure, I hooked them up with the website so they could download PF2.

I literally ran for nearly 3 solid days. Even when I wasn't scheduled.


HWalsh wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
I converted 4 5e groups to PF2
Interesting, how did that come about, and is it permanent?

How?

I ran games.

Afterward they asked to talk to me. I walked them through things (like character creation) and explained the virtues of customization in the system. I showed some of my own builds, showing what I was able to do mechanically (Healadin, Chargadin, and Iomedean Sword Maiden from Paladin - A Ranger/Fighter Longbow Specialist, etc - Even a Clonk (Monk/Cleric))

A bunch of them had left a 10 hour Waterdeep game on Saturday that my roommates were in. My roomies had dragged them to me because they (utterly) hated the event and (being their first exposure to 5e) had turned them off to it. I was tapped to run for them.

Ah, yeah, all sounds like very extenuating (extreme, unusual) circumstances.

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Removed a derail and replies relating to art and naked dryads. That's not a tangent that this thread needs to go down.


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...Reacting to the other news,

Witches:
"Yes, Please" to seeing Witches soon. I think there could be some awesome design space with Witches - I can easily see Hexes being adapted to the Powers system, but I could just as easily see Hexes being all Cantrips that raise in power, with "bolstered" applied on a successful save.

Prehensile Hair Class feats for the win! :)

Ancestries:
I'm middle of the road on them, myself. The feats were fine to me, but they weren't very exciting, either, and a lot of people seem to see them as too restrictive, so if they change, I wouldn't be surprised.

Monster Rules:
I REALLY, REALLY wish they had included those in the Bestiary - after all, they weren't printing a version of the Bestiary anyway, so space from the extra 10 or 20 pages needed wasn't a huge concern, I would have thought. Plus, it would really extend the life on the playtest well past December or so to be able to create monsters on the fly with the same math. Then again, I'm pretty sure clever posters will reverse-engineer it using the existing monsters, if they haven't already. :)


ENHenry wrote:

...Reacting to the other news,

Witches:
"Yes, Please" to seeing Witches soon. I think there could be some awesome design space with Witches - I can easily see Hexes being adapted to the Powers system, but I could just as easily see Hexes being all Cantrips that raise in power, with "bolstered" applied on a successful save.

Prehensile Hair Class feats for the win! :)

Ancestries:
I'm middle of the road on them, myself. The feats were fine to me, but they weren't very exciting, either, and a lot of people seem to see them as too restrictive, so if they change, I wouldn't be surprised.

Monster Rules:
I REALLY, REALLY wish they had included those in the Bestiary - after all, they weren't printing a version of the Bestiary anyway, so space from the extra 10 or 20 pages needed wasn't a huge concern, I would have thought. Plus, it would really extend the life on the playtest well past December or so to be able to create monsters on the fly with the same math. Then again, I'm pretty sure clever posters will reverse-engineer it using the existing monsters, if they haven't already. :)

I'm kinda at the point where I'm relying on people to reverse engineer the monster building rules with the final release if they don't have it there at launch. As I said earlier, it's an absolute must have for me. Without it, just won't work period.


First World Bard wrote:
Given what we've seen so far, I suspect the core elements of designing a witch to be fairly straightforward. I'd expect a Witch to be an int-based, prepared spellcaster that uses the Occult list. The choice of patron and familiar would be the baked in class ability (a la Wizard school or Sorceror bloodline), and hexes would come from Class Feats. Of course, I'm not claiming the design would be easy: balancing hexes will probably take some serious development to get right. But if someone wanted to homebrew a witch *right now*, I suspect they could do a pretty passable job at it.

That sounds pretty much what I'm thinking too, except I think their spell list might depend on patron much like Sorcerers and bloodlines. So you can get a divine witch, occult witch etc.

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