The extra costs for heavy armor add extra complication


Magic Items

Liberty's Edge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

There are several places in the rules (such as Property Runes) where the cost for heavy armor is greater than the cost for light/medium armor.

Pros:
-Adds flavor for heavy armor.
-Slightly justified by heavy armor (at higher levels) providing superior AC (due to proficiency) and fortification.

Cons:
-Adds extra complication to the rules.
-Uses up extra space.
-Medium armor can also be fortified, but doesn't get the extra cost.
-Heavy armor does not feel significantly more powerful than light or medium (and at low level feels worse due to all its penalties).

In my opinion, the game rules would be simpler and shorter by omitting these cost increases for heavy armor.


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I would say that Heavy armor Is worse than other armor most of the time.

Leather max +6 AC +5 TAC. Check Penalty 0. Speed 25
Full plate max +7 AC +5 TAC. Check Penalty -5. Speed 15

I would use leather armor every time. And if i don't have the dex for that I would pick Studded leather or Hide.

I think most characters will have 18 dex at level 10 or latest level 15.


I'm of the opinion the complication isn't worth the flavor. But maybe if heavy armor gets better I'd change my mind.


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Has Heavy Armor ever been worth it? I rarely see people go above Medium.


I'm ok with heavy, medium and light armor giving the same AC (adding item bonus plus dex bonus), but so they should cost the same...

Also, the extra complication is too bad and go in an opposite direction for the game purpose. Please, unify and standardize that rules to become more player-friendly.


MerlinCross wrote:
Has Heavy Armor ever been worth it? I rarely see people go above Medium.

Not since 3rd edition started heavily penalizing everyone for wearing armor. Prior to that everyone tried to get the best armor they could equip.


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I mean, heavier armor should almost always be better than lighter armor. It was developed for a reason.


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It's sort of disappointing that not even Dwarfs can manage full plate without a speed reduction before high levels. I really think "double the benefit of unburdened" would be a reasonable mid-level dwarf feat.

Because I have a number of characters where I really just do not want to invest heavily in dexterity.


Archimedes Mavranos wrote:

There are several places in the rules (such as Property Runes) where the cost for heavy armor is greater than the cost for light/medium armor.

Pros:
-Adds flavor for heavy armor.
-Slightly justified by heavy armor (at higher levels) providing superior AC (due to proficiency) and fortification.

Cons:
-Adds extra complication to the rules.
-Uses up extra space.
-Medium armor can also be fortified, but doesn't get the extra cost.
-Heavy armor does not feel significantly more powerful than light or medium (and at low level feels worse due to all its penalties).

In my opinion, the game rules would be simpler and shorter by omitting these cost increases for heavy armor.

This is only at level 3/4. At level 7, the next armor rune level, all armor costs the same.

The reason is that each level of item has a price cap. If you exceed the price cap you go to the net level. At level 3 the cost of the base armor + rune is enough to bump heavy armor into the level 4 price range.


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Ultimatecalibur wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Has Heavy Armor ever been worth it? I rarely see people go above Medium.
Not since 3rd edition started heavily penalizing everyone for wearing armor. Prior to that everyone tried to get the best armor they could equip.

Yes, in 1e, there are plenty of situations where you prefer heavy armor to light or medium. The same is true of 5e (where Heavy Armor Proficiency is highly valued).

The obvious example in 1e is any character with a Dexterity capped at +1 to +3 (so 12-16). Heavy armor will give you a +1 AC advantage over medium armor, and while it does penalize skills additionally, it doesn't slow your movement any more than does medium.

Do you play pathfinder in large groups? Have you never seen someone wearing Heavy Armor at the table? Did you always assume they were wrong?


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There's no reason to take it. I mean heck, look at its traits. There's many, many reasons NOT to take it.


tivadar27 wrote:
Do you play pathfinder in large groups? Have you never seen someone wearing Heavy Armor at the table? Did you always assume they were wrong?

No I tend to play with a small circle of friends that tries to get new blood in every so often. I've tried stepping out of my circle and usually ends up being dungeon crawlers and min-max.

As for never..., well not never. But I can probably count the amount of people I've seen use Heavy Armor in PF1.

And were they wrong? I don't know. I haven't seen enough Heavy Armor users to think "Hey this is wrong". Considering through that I rarely see it, few people talk about it, and guides seem to skip over it, along with the stats and costs...,

Well I don't know if picking Heavy Armor is wrong. But I don't see anything suggesting it's a good idea either.


I agree. Those extra costs are unnecessary.

Heavy armor is really only worth it at high levels for classes that get extra bonuses to it like Fighter or Paladin. The downsides in speed and ACP(Even if dropped to -1/-2) are considerable.

Those rules might be somewhat flavorful, but they are clutter and really unnecessary.

Seconded.


Heavy armor is a stat-boost item...in its own way.
Allows you to invest stats elsewhere.


Full plate has a +1 dex mod cap, and comes with the Clumsy trait.

Clumsy This armor’s Dexterity modifier cap also applies to Reflex
saves and to all Dexterity-based skill and ability checks that
don’t have the attack trait.

Splint mail is the same.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Which is why halfplate is the best heavy armor if you want to have a decent reflex save.

The biggest issue for heavy armor is the -10 ft. movement speed. Granted, at level 17 fighters and paladins reduce that to -5 ft. (and grey maidens at level 18). But that's a level that won't see much play.

Clumsy is the next big issue. This basically means that any heavy armor user will be easier to trip than any other class, because there is no reason for anyone not wearing heavy armor to not put one of the 4 stat boosts at level 5/10/15/20 into dex. (The other 3 stat boosts will go to con (fort + hp), wisdom (will + perception) and class stat or charisma if class stat is dex or wis already.)

The next issue is ACP. This is however fixed over the levels by item quality and using mithral. Paladins at level 17 and Grey Maidens at level 18 using legendary mithral full plate actually have 0 ACP.

The final issue is that wearing heavy armor offers no direct benefit over light or medium armor. All the benefits come online very late when the proficiency modifiers start to come online (level 11/17 for fighters, level 7/13/17 for paladins and level 8/14/18 for grey maidens).

It would be nice if there was a rune or special material that removes clumsy from heavy armor.

Dark Archive

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It's still bizarre to me that heavy armour is seen as such a detriment to mobility compared with light. I'm sure by now we've all seen videos of someone sprinting in full plate, doing somersaults, and generally having no issue with movement.

Right now, there is no reason why heavy armour proficiency should be feat locked when it's functionally the same as medium and light armour when the max Dex bonus is met. If I make a ranger and spend a feat on heavy armour proficiency, my reward at the end is to have a higher AC penalty. I know I don't have to raise Dex as high, but I was probably going to anyway because ranged attacks are a factor. It's also easy to raise Dex now with four stats being increased every 5 levels.


Damanta wrote:
Clumsy is the next big issue. This basically means that any heavy armor user will be easier to trip than any other class, because there is no reason for anyone not wearing heavy armor to not put one of the 4 stat boosts at level 5/10/15/20 into dex. (The other 3 stat boosts will go to con (fort + hp), wisdom (will + perception) and class stat or charisma if class stat is dex or wis already.)

It's easy to come up with cases where this isn't true, though. Like if I have a cleric of a deity that has a good sacred weapon (e.g. Shelyn) and I want to both fight and heal, I want to invest in Wisdom (to cast), Charisma (to heal), Strength (to hit), which leaves me with 1 more stat boost and since I'm a d8 class I would prefer to put those into constition so choosing heavy armor lets me boost those four stats. I can just take lightning reflexes with a general feat to shore up my reflex saves and stop at 14 dex so I can wear splint mail.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Damanta wrote:
Clumsy is the next big issue. This basically means that any heavy armor user will be easier to trip than any other class, because there is no reason for anyone not wearing heavy armor to not put one of the 4 stat boosts at level 5/10/15/20 into dex. (The other 3 stat boosts will go to con (fort + hp), wisdom (will + perception) and class stat or charisma if class stat is dex or wis already.)
It's easy to come up with cases where this isn't true, though. Like if I have a cleric of a deity that has a good sacred weapon (e.g. Shelyn) and I want to both fight and heal, I want to invest in Wisdom (to cast), Charisma (to heal), Strength (to hit), which leaves me with 1 more stat boost and since I'm a d8 class I would prefer to put those into constition so choosing heavy armor lets me boost those four stats. I can just take lightning reflexes with a general feat to shore up my reflex saves and stop at 14 dex so I can wear splint mail.

and another general feat for heavy armour proficiency which, unless you're human, you're not getting at level 1. So you'd be at sub-par AC for at least 2 levels.


CommanderCoyler wrote:
and another general feat for heavy armour proficiency which, unless you're human, you're not getting at level 1. So you'd be at sub-par AC for at least 2 levels.

I had considered being human *and* having 16 Str at Chargen so I could take the fighter dedication at level 2 for heavy armor proficiency and snag lightning reflexes at 3.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Damanta wrote:
Clumsy is the next big issue. This basically means that any heavy armor user will be easier to trip than any other class, because there is no reason for anyone not wearing heavy armor to not put one of the 4 stat boosts at level 5/10/15/20 into dex. (The other 3 stat boosts will go to con (fort + hp), wisdom (will + perception) and class stat or charisma if class stat is dex or wis already.)
It's easy to come up with cases where this isn't true, though. Like if I have a cleric of a deity that has a good sacred weapon (e.g. Shelyn) and I want to both fight and heal, I want to invest in Wisdom (to cast), Charisma (to heal), Strength (to hit), which leaves me with 1 more stat boost and since I'm a d8 class I would prefer to put those into constition so choosing heavy armor lets me boost those four stats. I can just take lightning reflexes with a general feat to shore up my reflex saves and stop at 14 dex so I can wear splint mail.

Honestly, yeah, if you want to do all these things I agree. I wanted to play a Cleric who could both heal a lot and fight, and that was easy by tanking Wisdom (more heals from Charisma > ~4 extra health per heal from Wisdom). Yeah, it meant that SP was harder to come by (spent a feat to get +3 from Advanced Domain for Weapon Surge), but still, it was, overall, pretty effective, and I managed a starting Strength of 16, Dexterity of 14.

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