Creating a debuff character


Creating a Character


Hi all, not sure if I'm posting in the right area I apologize if I'm not. I'm going to be making my first character and I'd like to make a debuff character just wondering which options are best at this point. I have my eyes set right now on one Cleric domain which might fit the billing (Nightmare domain), but I'm not sure if there are others that are even better for it. I use to play a Bad touch Cleric of the Madness/Trickery domain in Pathfinder for the Vision of Madness ability of course. Thanks for all your help.


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At the mo only Lamashtu gets the nightmare domain and her clerics are chaotic evil. Also the way saves work an equal level creature gives you about a 50% chance of success (with almost no means of boosting the chance), and failure on that nightmare advanced domain power means you are confused. I wouldn't recommend it. The destruction domain (Nethys, Gorum) to lower resistances or the earth domain (Erastil, Torag) to knock enemies prone without consequences to you seem much safer. Gorum or Erastil get true strike as a spell option which looks good.

You probably want the intimidate skill. It's one of those very few ways of boosting the chance of landing spells/powers.

A sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline also looks like a possible debuffer BTW. A sorcerer isn't a particularly powerful class overall though, be warned.


A Bard with Dirge of Doom and appropriate spells is a good debuffer.


avr wrote:

At the mo only Lamashtu gets the nightmare domain and her clerics are chaotic evil. Also the way saves work an equal level creature gives you about a 50% chance of success (with almost no means of boosting the chance), and failure on that nightmare advanced domain power means you are confused. I wouldn't recommend it. The destruction domain (Nethys, Gorum) to lower resistances or the earth domain (Erastil, Torag) to knock enemies prone without consequences to you seem much safer. Gorum or Erastil get true strike as a spell option which looks good.

You probably want the intimidate skill. It's one of those very few ways of boosting the chance of landing spells/powers.

A sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline also looks like a possible debuffer BTW. A sorcerer isn't a particularly powerful class overall though, be warned.

Good to see a familiar name on the 2E forums, glad you made it over. Thank you as always. I will look into your two recommendations.


Reading through them, would Localized quake also knock down allies including myself (everything within the aura)?

And Destructive Aura lowers everyone's resistances including my own? Eeek


Localized quake specifically targets enemies. Unless you have serious problems that's not you. And reducing your resistances is only a problem if you have any, which normally you won't as a PF2 PC.

The dirge of doom bard isn't bad and is definitely better than the sorcerer when you're stabbing people, buffing, being attacked or for using a variety of skills. It doesn't get the option of metamagic though as a sorcerer does, dirge of doom itself isn't necessarily better than demoralize via intimidate, it's way worse at healing than a cleric while not necessarily being better at stabbing/buffing/resisting attacks (it does get a lot more skills).


I was hoping to create a touch attack Cleric with a domain power geared towards that but couldn't find anything as good as my last characters (Vision of Madness). For touch attacking domain powers do you suggest any? Touch of Obedience or Shadows? Or any others you see as potential.


Savor the sting (pain domain) has its uses but you must have noticed by now that magic has been nerfed hard. There is no equivalent of vision of madness and this is by design; there may not ever be an equivalent of vision of madness in PF2. Spells which give a penalty of 2 on a failed save are top of the line debuffs in this edition, even at high levels.


avr wrote:
Savor the sting (pain domain) has its uses but you must have noticed by now that magic has been nerfed hard. There is no equivalent of vision of madness and this is by design; there may not ever be an equivalent of vision of madness in PF2. Spells which give a penalty of 2 on a failed save are top of the line debuffs in this edition, even at high levels.

:( That is true. I've been looking hard to find something comparable but I couldn't. R.I.P vision of madness old friend. Hello Savor the Sting!


avr wrote:

Localized quake specifically targets enemies. Unless you have serious problems that's not you. And reducing your resistances is only a problem if you have any, which normally you won't as a PF2 PC.

The dirge of doom bard isn't bad and is definitely better than the sorcerer when you're stabbing people, buffing, being attacked or for using a variety of skills. It doesn't get the option of metamagic though as a sorcerer does, dirge of doom itself isn't necessarily better than demoralize via intimidate, it's way worse at healing than a cleric while not necessarily being better at stabbing/buffing/resisting attacks (it does get a lot more skills).

Intimidate seems quite a bit better in this version than PF1 which is good to see. Would you say it's viable with the type of build I'm going for? I could intimidate to demoralize and cast a spell in one round if I'm not mistaken?


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Atalius wrote:
Intimidate seems quite a bit better in this version than PF1 which is good to see. Would you say it's viable with the type of build I'm going for? I could intimidate to demoralize and cast a spell in one round if I'm not mistaken?
avr, in a post you favorited wrote:
You probably want the intimidate skill. It's one of those very few ways of boosting the chance of landing spells/powers.

Yes. Most spells are two actions, intimidate is one, you get three total. If you don't need to move or something you can combine them.

It's not that intimidate is better really aside from going down to the equivalent of a move or swift action (which you could do in PF1 at least 3 ways), just that it hasn't been wrapped in nerf tape like most other things.


If I did go the route of Zon Kuthon (LN) I would gain Intimidation as a signature skill which would go nice with the theme I'm going for. I wanted to ask you would losing the ability to channel positive energy be a big hit? Or is not too bad?


I'm pretty sure signature skills are going to get a do-over before you're likely to reach the level where they matter. What the result of that will be I don't know. The flavour of Z-K isn't likely to change too much however. Make sure you're OK with his edicts and anathema though -
Edicts bring pain to the world, mutilate your body
Anathema create permanent or long-lasting sources of light,
provide comfort to those who suffer

Channel positive energy is certainly better than the negative version for your party. For you personally? A damaging spell might be useful enough.


Since we get one domain I think I may go with that (Pain) even though Earth looks clearly superior I just like the touch flavor. Then when I get a second domain through a feat I may take Touch of Shadows, i figure being a single action and using that with Savor the Sting would that make a good debuff combo?

One question I had was is there a way to make intimidate a free action eventually like there was for PF1? I wouldn't mind combining all 3 if I could (if it's even a good idea?) As you can see I'm trying my best to stack negatives.


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If you take rogue multiclass feats you can get a free intimidate when you drop someone (You're Next, rogue 1). The Battle Cry skill feat could help too. There's probably other similar means, but my knowledge of PF2 isn't as encyclopedic as it could be.

I can't make myself think touch of shadows is a good use of a spell point. A 20% miss chance for 1 round, if you hit on a melee touch attack which does nothing else and which is either at -4 attack (second attack, +1 for savor the sting), or which puts the attack to land savor the sting at -5... no. Don't do it.


avr wrote:

If you take rogue multiclass feats you can get a free intimidate when you drop someone (You're Next, rogue 1). The Battle Cry skill feat could help too. There's probably other similar means, but my knowledge of PF2 isn't as encyclopedic as it could be.

I can't make myself think touch of shadows is a good use of a spell point. A 20% miss chance for 1 round, if you hit on a melee touch attack which does nothing else and which is either at -4 attack (second attack, +1 for savor the sting), or which puts the attack to land savor the sting at -5... no. Don't do it.

I can feel PF2 making some serious changes. There is still hope Avr. I wanted to ask you about which deity I should go with from a completely mechanical standpoint. Torag with Earth as the primary domain and if I choose a secondary one later Protection seems viable. If I went the Saranerae route he Light domains ability of Dazzling Flash looks very strong however with an average Undead Bane first level power :( As a secondary domain for Saranerae nothing seems particularly strong besides Healing correct? Out of the two deities which one would you recommend for me, I'm trying to go for the one with the more potent domain powers and preferably a viable second domain. Zon Kuthon with Pain is enticing however with no prosotive channeling I just don't feel as if it's worth it and a weak secondary domain whatever that may be (possibly Destruction).


You're right about the positives and negatives of those deities. Thematically a cleric of Torag who goes on to pick up a rogue multiclass is pretty weird. Not impossible, but look at these:
Edicts be honorable and forthright, keep your word, respect the forge, serve your people
Anathema show mercy to the enemies of your people, tell lies or cheat someone, intentionally create inferior craftwork
It'd work with the battle cry skill feat well though.

Sarenrae's a lot easier as a concept for a rogue multiclass even with the apparent demise of her true neutral clerics. I'd probably look at the truth domain for glimpse of truth because positive channeling clerics are said to be overkill in the healing department already, or even not get a second domain. There are other uses for your feats especially if you multiclass.


avr wrote:

You're right about the positives and negatives of those deities. Thematically a cleric of Torag who goes on to pick up a rogue multiclass is pretty weird. Not impossible, but look at these:

Edicts be honorable and forthright, keep your word, respect the forge, serve your people
Anathema show mercy to the enemies of your people, tell lies or cheat someone, intentionally create inferior craftwork
It'd work with the battle cry skill feat well though.

Sarenrae's a lot easier as a concept for a rogue multiclass even with the apparent demise of her true neutral clerics. I'd probably look at the truth domain for glimpse of truth because positive channeling clerics are said to be overkill in the healing department already, or even not get a second domain. There are other uses for your feats especially if you multiclass.

Hmm do you feel as if I would have to multiclass to make the character viable? Is going straight class just too weak?


Would losing out on True Strike be a big loss? (The Torag route). I do like the idea of my first character being a straight class as to keep things simple. I'm a big fan of using primarily domain powers so I could see myself using Earth and possibly Protection or Family domain for Soothing Words?


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If you want to reduce the action cost of intimidate a rogue multiclass is good. If you're willing to mostly live with it and just pick battle cry for an occasional free intimidate, no worries. Torag's a very solid battle-god.

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