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This example will be simplified, but currently extends to most aspects of PF2. Mostly, it boils down to changing terminology when you don't have to because you want to be different. Also, I want to clarify, I'm writing this after a good discussion about terminology with my group where they expressed these concerns and I'm summarizing everything here.
Toughness in Pathfinder 1 reads:
You gain +3 hit points. For every Hit Die you possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point. If you have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level).
In PF2, you get:
You can withstand more punishment than most before going down. Increase your maximum Hit Points by your level or 4, whichever is higher. When you reach level 5 and every time you gain a level thereafter, adjust your maximum Hit Points gained from Toughness accordingly (for example, at level 7, this feat would increase your maximum Hit Points by 7). You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to recovery saves.
Reading this as a GM, I can see that it's largely unchanged (I'm 90% sure, anyway), but my players wanted to know if this means at 5th level, you get 5 extra hit points, or only 1. It can be interpreted as I gain 4 hit point, but starting at 5th level I gain hit points equal to my level at every level. It's wrong, but at least 1 person has thought so.
Why?
What about the way you write PF2 means you have to write Toughness in this way? There's no mechanical reason, no keyword there that would explain the extra paragraph of text. You could change the PF 1 version to +4 hit points to start, and at every level beyond 4, you gain +1. Oh, and you also get +1 circumstance on recovery saves (I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the gist I hope).
I know it's a new edition, and that some things have to change how they're written in order to fit in the new car smell keywords we all have to learn anyway, but things like this become weird as a result.
I like the playtest so far. Seemingly, it has worked better for my group than a lot of others from what I've read, but that's because I've given it a fairly thorough read-through (I totally didn't get dying, but that's fixed now anyway) and keep a document that places changes side-by-side between editions.
If the goal is to transition willing players into 2e from 1e, don't do what 4th edition D&D did by alienating them with the text/format. Start with the current game as a basis, and upgrade only where it makes sense/is necessary to include new terms and phrases. The ground-up approach is great for Starfinder, where you already know you're playing something quite different. If you're making a fighter today and a fighter tomorrow, he should read like a fighter on both days.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cp.
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This example will be simplified, but currently extends to most aspects of PF2. Mostly, it boils down to changing terminology when you don't have to because you want to be different.
Yes! I'm glad someone else feels the same way.
As I try to convert people from PF1 to PF2, this is just another barrier to them learning the game. It irritates me as well. There are enough barriers to learning this game already.
Basically, in PF2 there are too many unnecessary changes, terminology being one of them. And it's a real barrier to learning the game.
Examples of unnecessary changes:
1) Changed "Bull Rush" to "Shove".
2) Changed "Disguise" to "Impersonate".
3) Changed "Bluff" to "Lie".
4) And more from other posts which I won't go into.
Some of the changes are good, but these are the ones, along with changing the wording unnecessarily for Toughness, bother me.
I'd like them changed back. I'd like PF2 to share as much common terminology with PF1 as possible.
... (for example, at level 7, this feat would increase your maximum Hit Points by 7)...
As I read it, at Level < 5, the bonus is +4, otherwise the bonus = +Level. The example supports that.
The only reason is Humans.
Humans can get Toughness at level 1, and with that reading it grants them 4 hp.
Back when Kyra's sheet was first published, me (and others) thought Toughness would grant +2hp, and +2 per level, following the logic of ancestry/class hit points. It turned out to be wrong, but it would be a better, more logical way to do it.
It should just be
"Your Ancestry and Class HP are each increased by 1"
or
"You gain 1 bonus hp per level"
Screw Humans.
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I'm glad more people are speaking up about this. I've been trying to make the case for this for weeks since my co-GM flat out hates all the changes in names of things that were in 1e.
This is a serious barrier to some veterans.
Newbies won't know the difference in terminology.
And veterans that don't care about it are a moot point.
Make naming conventions consistent between editions as much as possible and you avoid alienating part of your current customer base.
No-brainier.
Easy win.
PS- If I were going to rewrite Toughness it would be like this:
Increase your maximum Hit Points by +1 per level. If your level is below 4, treat your level as if it were 4. You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to recovery saves.
Neat, clean, no room for misinterpretation.
no room for misinterpretation
So I can treat my level as 4 for all purposes? That'll really make hitting my enemies easier!
Shame it's just a one-off bonus to HP that doesn't give you another bonus hit point every time you level up...
Based on the math, if you were to get the feat at level 3, and then go +1 each level, when you hit the example level of Level 7, you'd be at a +8 to your maximum hit points, which doesn't line up with the example.
Are you getting that +1 each level from the PF1 version? The PF2 rule is:
"Increase your maximum Hit Points by your level or 4, whichever is higher. When you reach level 5 and every time you gain a level thereafter, adjust your maximum Hit Points gained from Toughness accordingly."So if you get it at level 1 you have +4HP compared to what you'd have without Toughness. At level 4, you still have +4HP compared to what you'd have without Toughness. At level 5, you adjust the total to match your current level, so you have +5HP compared to what you'd have without Toughness. At level 6, you adjust it again, so you have +6HP compared to what you'd have without Toughness. At level 7, you have +7HP compared to what you'd have without Toughness, which is what the example is trying to say. It's pretty unambiguous.
It's a bit mediocre, but that's better than a feat that requires the GM to scale up the enemies.
Side note, I couldn't find anywhere under humans that they could get Toughness at level 1. I'm using a PDF version and searching the word 'toughness'
General Training, Human Ancestry feat.
Personally, for word count purposes I would prefer it to read in this way.
You gain a number of hit points equal to your level. (Minimum +3)
In PF2, you get:
You can withstand more punishment than most before going down. Increase your maximum Hit Points by your level or 4, whichever is higher. When you reach level 5 and every time you gain a level thereafter, adjust your maximum Hit Points gained from Toughness accordingly (for example, at level 7, this feat would increase your maximum Hit Points by 7). You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to recovery saves.Reading this as a GM, I can see that it's largely unchanged (I'm 90% sure, anyway), but my players wanted to know if this means at 5th level, you get 5 extra hit points, or only 1. It can be interpreted as I gain 4 hit point, but starting at 5th level I gain hit points equal to my level at every level. It's wrong, but at least 1 person has thought so.
I...what?
I'm not even sure how you arrive at "at 5th level you only get 1 hp."
That is, what part of "your level or 4 (whichever is larger)" is not unclear?
Not saying you don't have an argument, but that I literally can't even see that argument.
no room for misinterpretationSo I can treat my level as 4 for all purposes? That'll really make hitting my enemies easier!
Shame it's just a one-off bonus to HP that doesn't give you another bonus hit point every time you level up...
Sure, if you're trying to purposefully misinterpret it.
But point taken.Frankly, I would drop the initial HP boost, since you can't get this until at least level 3 in most cases. It's just a holdover from 1e anyway.
Toughness
Increase your maximum HP by your level. Each time you gain a new level hereafter, further increase your maximum HP by +1. You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to recovery saves.
Personally, for word count purposes I would prefer it to read in this way.
You gain a number of hit points equal to your level. (Minimum +3)
Lemme borrow that a sec...
Toughness
You gain a number of maximum Hit Points equal to your level. (Minimum +4) Starting at 5th level and at each level thereafter, further increase your maximum HP by +1. You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to recovery saves.
I'm not even sure how you arrive at "at 5th level you only get 1 hp."
You do only get one extra HP compared to the 4HP Toughness gives you at level 4. The alternative (wrong) interpretation they were debating was if it gave you an extra 5HP on top of the extra 4HP you had from level 4.
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One of my friends pointed out something to me, and I felt the need to adjust my previous reply.
You gain a number of hit points equal to your level. This increases as gain additional levels. (Minimum +3)