Is the 1.1 update broken on the dying rule?


Running the Game


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

So if I follow, before the update we had :

Initial Playtest Rulebook P295 (Getting Knocked Out) wrote:
If you already had the dying condition, instead increase your dying condition by 1. If the attack was a critical hit, you gain the dying 2 condition (or increase your dying condition by 2).

So if the monster kept hitting me (coup-de-grâce story) while I was dying, my dying condition was increasing. Seems legit.

But now...

Update 1.1 (Getting Knocked Out) wrote:
If the damage came from a lethal source, you gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead.

You do not increase anymore the dying value by hitting a dying character? Seems so because of the two following rules:

Update 1.1 (Taking Damage while Dying) wrote:
If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out by that damage, except you don’t move your initiative position.

So you do not ADD to the dying value, you just ADD a new independent dying condition+value, but then :

Initial Playtest Rulebook P319 (CONDITION VALUES) wrote:
If you’re affected by a condition with a value multiple times, you apply only the higher value, although you might have to track both durations if one has a lower value but lasts longer.

Tada! The monster can never get you above dying 2 even if it keeps on hitting your lying body.

Say you have the diehard feat (you die at dying value = 5), then even if you critically fail your recovery check (dying value = 2 from the monster criticaly hitting you 20 times + 2 from your critical failure), you are still not dead???? Something I misunderstood because I'm not a native english speaker?
BROKEN???
Someone forgot something when updating the rules.... IMHO


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interesting...I did not notice this.


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There's a whole thread going on about that here.

You got it right: right now you just can't die anymore, unless you roll incredibly badly on your Fort saves.
It doesn't matter whether the ancient black dragon of doom is breating fire at your dying body, once you're unconscious, you're "safe".

I can't wait for new, more sensical rules that restore some sense of danger and lethality to combat.


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Frencois wrote:

You do not increase anymore the dying value by hitting a dying character? Seems so because of the two following rules:

Yep, it's a problem.

And the other big problem is that Administer First Aid doesn't have a DC of 15 anymore, it's now the recovery DC. It's better if PCs don't even try now. Or ever.

Scarab Sages

Pretty sure it is bad working and the intent is that it stack


Jason S wrote:
Frencois wrote:

You do not increase anymore the dying value by hitting a dying character? Seems so because of the two following rules:

Yep, it's a problem.

And the other big problem is that Administer First Aid doesn't have a DC of 15 anymore, it's now the recovery DC. It's better if PCs don't even try now. Or ever.

On the plus side, it gives you an option to increase the Dying condition on such "impossible to kill" characters the OP mentioned.

Just have the monster "Administer First Aid" to the character and have it voluntarily critically fail the skill check.
"Critical Failure A creature with 0 Hit Points has its dying condition increased by 1. A creature with persistent bleed damage takes damage equal to the amount of its persistent bleed damage."

(I am not sure if you can actually voluntarily crit-fail, but...)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:
Pretty sure it is bad working and the intent is that it stack

This is the most logical reason. So I'll hold off judgement until the next official errata comes out.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Asmodeus' Unholy Barrister wrote:
Jason S wrote:
Frencois wrote:

You do not increase anymore the dying value by hitting a dying character? Seems so because of the two following rules:

Yep, it's a problem.

And the other big problem is that Administer First Aid doesn't have a DC of 15 anymore, it's now the recovery DC. It's better if PCs don't even try now. Or ever.

On the plus side, it gives you an option to increase the Dying condition on such "impossible to kill" characters the OP mentioned.

Just have the monster "Administer First Aid" to the character and have it voluntarily critically fail the skill check.
"Critical Failure A creature with 0 Hit Points has its dying condition increased by 1. A creature with persistent bleed damage takes damage equal to the amount of its persistent bleed damage."

(I am not sure if you can actually voluntarily crit-fail, but...)

Absolutely hilarious!!!!

Now as a DM I will have every enemy party to include a level 1 monster with Untrained Medecine (modifier -1) with poor quality healer's tool (modifier -2) and WIS 1 (modifier -5). So he will just have to roll 2 below the the recovery DC on a d20 to ensure critical failure. He will be in charge of "finishing" fallen adventurers.
Piece of cake!
Hilarious!

As I mentionned in the OP, this is so-funny-broken.

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