This post was inspired from one of Liam's replies in the new feedback thread regarding Alchemists not being able to use their bombs because of splash damage, and it really crystallized my concerns about Alchemists.
I should say that my twin brother plays a Goblin Alchemist in the Playtest group (the Shortshank Redemption) I am running, and he is certainly the player who 'plays the best', from a numbers/tactics perspective. So I say this as someone who has seen, perhaps, a fairly good Alchemist in the game.
Liam's post about splash damage is quite well taken, because the Alchemist doesn't have a single damaging level-1 bomb that doesn't do splash damage. They do have the tanglefoot bag, and I can see possible applications for it, but you certainly do no damage. So, combine this with the archetypal boss fight as an illustrative example. There is one enemy, and very few parties don't have a melee character whose job is to 'tank'.
So what does an Alchemist do once the enemy is in contact with the party? His bombs have to hit TAC, and if he misses, the bombs will do equal damage to the enemy and the party members in contact with it... very few circumstances really make that a good idea.
This leads to the second issue. The Alchemist has no default attack, really. Even their bombs don't use their class stat (Intelligence), but at least it's TAC and almost certainly--because of this very issue--the Alchemist's second-highest stat, Dexterity. This puts Alchemist ranged attacks squarely into suboptimal range, and other posts have shown how suboptimal attack modifiers are very poor in combat.
So when your party is in contact with the enemy and you're an Alchemist, what are you expected to do? Fire a Crossbow at +4 to hit? The action economy is terrible if you then want to use a Bomb (maybe because additional enemies appeared), because a Crossbow, unlike a Bow, uses 2 hands, not 1+. Even if the answer is, 'Crossbow,'... does no one else see the '3E wizard' problem here? Damage cantrips exist, from a design perspective, to solve the problem of low-level casters having nothing they're 'good at' to do too much of the time.
So why hasn't the same solution been applied to the Alchemist?
Even a change as basic as, 'when you create a Bomb with Quick Alchemy or Advanced Alchemy, you can choose to have the Bomb not deal splash damage' _as a level 1 Class feature_ (i.e., not a Feat) could address a lot of this. I would estimate, though, that 80% of Bombs created would not do Splash damage in this case.
An obvious alternative would be to just provide bombs that don't do Splash damage.
However, the above only would 'fix' (and, not optimally so IMO) the 'throwing Bombs into combat' issue of Alchemists. They really need a Cantrip-level effect for QoL improvements.
I would suggest a level-0 version of alchemical bombs, and then just give the Alchemist the ability to _not spend Resonance_ on versions of Bombs that are lower than the highest they can make.
Now, that might help the two most glaring issues that have come up during the game, but there is at least one other issue that just makes me scratch my head. And it's very simple.
The Alchemist will never make alchemical items (with one exception) for his own use during Downtime. The reason is simple. Alchemical items made during Downtime aren't Infused, which means it would cost the Alchemist a Resonance to use them... which means it competes with his own Quick Alchemy feat... and by 'compete' I mean 'completely overshadowed'. I am not sure why _anyone_ thought it was a good idea for the Alchemist to not want to use their signature skill and class feature during the Play Mode most likely to do so.
That exception is Poisons. Apparently, Poisons, unlike other alchemical items, don't need Resonance to use. The Goblin Alchemist is already working on reverse-engineering the Centipede Venom and then mass-producing it during Downtime for his own use and others.
But, um, is my group just missing something, and that the Alchemist should be making more alchemical items during downtime?
I'm personally a fan of the Druid way of having 'specialist alchemists' gain extra features on their feats. And to turn half their regular class features in actual usable feats. Or even plain items, I mean, who decided that bombs that deal 2d6 damage are never sold?
Well, 'alchemical items as treasure' is never something I thought would be useful.
I even discussed your idea, Ediwir, with my brother, and we came to the issue that not all specializations fit at first level. The glaring one is Mutagens... you can't help but trip over their feats once you get to 6th level, so it certainly should be a specialization, but you can't have a specialization that is 'nothing' until 5th level.
You _could_ make a Specialization that is 'Mutagens and Poison', but that's really hackneyed, I think.
Mutagens and buffing extracts while wearing armor using a martial weapon and being in melee is a specialization that should work from first level though.
citricking: Possibly... you are suggesting that the 'Mutagen Alchemist' would get a bonus to ... um, what? Non-Healing Elixirs? ... before level 5? I had assumed that two specializations would be Bombs and Elixirs. Would you include Mutagens in Elixirs? That seems ... overly broad?
I really do wish that you could do, what you could do with Holy Water in p1. Just pour it on the target instead of throwing it and pplied no splash daamge. Preferably with the dex to hit option.
As for the "other stuff to do"
I keep linking the Rokka No Yuusha thread I posted in general chat. but i'll just put the quote in a spoiler here.
not edited for this format:
I do like the idea of a base Alchemcial Profiency granting a user specific "alchemical substance" unique to the alchemist-perhaps syntheszed from their own blood (allowing for immunity to it), which can be applied to a weapon and act as a poison. thrown on a target as a splash effect. Can be applied to bombs (and maybe auto applied to bombs made via quick alchemy) or consumed and act as a mutagen (or combined with one)
This would be something like lv ! D4+INT. This D4 increases by 1 dice every time Empower Bombds does (i.e. d4 eventually d6)
When used with a weapon this is poison damage (as per the Rogue's feat) NOT a poison DC effect (like normal Poisons).
When thrown as a Bomb this applies splash as per usual (D4+splash on target, splash for the rest) Poison damage also. (when added to a it just adds straight up so you get both effects on target and splash area unless damage type, in which case the higher wins) (this bomb can't really be shared as it would poison anyone else)
As mentioned, this requires an action to apply to the bomb (same as applying to weapons in general) BUT when created via Quick Alchemy it is automatically
applied.
When consumed it acts as a mutagen it provides a boost to some sort of stats (maybe just Temp HP, AC, or to hit?) equal to the number of Dice applied. When consumed with a normal mutagen the effects stack together.
Ideally this would not have a limit per day on uses. But. have a limit of INT iterations at once (limiting how much prepoison a dart user or crossbower could do). D4+int up to 6d4+INT isn't a terrible lot of damage.. other classes have similar riders or the ability to hit more accurately/more times/far harder. As it would be 1 action to create/throw the splash weapon version it would compare decently to cantrips (which take two actions) while also being balanced by the Multiple Attack penalty.
This is, effectively a weaker Sneak Attack that requires an action to apply (to weapons, which then requires another action to hit with) or use (bombs straight up use) or cantrips. It would be a fairly decent sustain. that would be extremely flavorful.
With the INT limit of iterations of the poison/bomb in existence at one time. that would prevent them from loading up on too many of them at once. BUT still allow them to apply them to their allies weapons as a team suppport action (which would directly limit what they could do) this would allow for Alchemist builds who focus on supporting the group with status effects and buffs/debuffs.
Since Alchemists have kind of lousy accuracy. being able to focus on one solid strike a round would be of benefit.
1action apply poison to weapon, 2nd action use weapon. 3rd.. whatever
1action draw alchemical bomb, action 2 apply poison to bomb, 3rd use bomb. 1action
(or with quick draw as described below)
2action: draw, poison, use 3rd action whatever
Ah a note. I used Poison Damage here. but really I would say lv 1 give a choice of Poison, Fire, Lighnting, Ice, Acid, (did i miss something?) damage. and then at lv 4 or 6 a class Feat that adds 1 more damage type choice and you can retake it.
and there would and should be Class Feats that could add effects or effectivness for these Boosters that could let an alchemist focus down on whatever path.
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Additionally, just to reiterate. Alchemists need a "Quick draw" that works for weapons and alchemical items (not just bombs). Interact action + USE (strike, drink, apply whatever) Ideally with a lv 8+ feat that would allow using 2 actions at once to use Alchemical Profiency's Substance along with the quick draw+use. So. using 2 actions at once they could draw, poison and (throw a knife/bomb or drink a spiked elixer, or spiked mutagen). THIS is needed because the way Quick Draw works in the current game, drawing+attack is one action, (instead of drawing a weapon as a free action). Meaning. You can not do anything extra to the item, You can not even hold it. You must strike with it. It needs an expansion to allow comboing.
I also think they could use a "apply poison in 1action" effect like Rogues, but honestly if they get Alchemical Profiency+Substance I don't care too much because they won't need that damage boost.
Lastly. Concerning the RP Supply issue. IF they want it to remain tied to Resounce Points, They -must- change the Daily Allotment to be Full Batch. and allow the lv 9 bonus stuff to apply to Advanced Alchemy (instead of quick alchemy. I believe they did this explicitly to prevent magic item abuse.. but applying only to Adv Alchemy solves this issue while giving the player far more agency and use out of it). Having a full batch and more open ended points+ Alchemical Profiency would give the Alchemist the dynamics of Sustain. and make using Alchemical Bombs honesty and truly worth the RP/Actions required. It would allow for alchemist who want to hand out just buffs to do so and still contribue in combat, and would allow those who want to do damage/debuffs to still do so. The limit via action economy would be similar to Casters.
What are anyone's thoughts on this idea?
This, is the best I can think of for an Item Master, which Alchemists should be and try to be IMO.
(oh.. and Alchemical Snares would be lovely.
Along with Liquid Blades (make it mercury like metal that you coat a blade with, it memorizes the form, and assumes that form when exposed to the electrical current/air )
and absolutely need SHARD GELS!
and Pellet Grenades)
Basically I think they should get an Alchemical Substance, that can be used as often as they want (with a limit of how many iterations at once), that can be used as a Poison, a bomb, or a Mutagen (only usable on alchemist). this item could be used as a Booster to any of the three as well, as a boost.
This would solidify Alchemist's idea that they are the guys who can get the most out of items. give them some form of sustain. and give them three potential paths to focus on with class feats. But. not cut off the ability otherwise.(bomber. poisoner. mutant)
I personally do not think Elixers are enough of concept to be a main class focus. There are such a huge variety and variance in Elixers that it would be too much to try and build some concept that could work on any and all, while being future proof for future extracts.
Later class feats that add time of effectiveness, as a factor of class or int maybe. The main thing blocking being a support Alchemist with Elixers and Tools is the RP issue.
Really though, just freeing up their RP limits would solve the ability for the Alchemist to be an item lord. (see spoiler). Either a separate pool. OR at the very least, Full Batch not 1/2batch. Or even INT number of items per RP point, of any combination during Daily Prep.
Yeah, I was thinking about these issues myself. I feel like alchemists were created at an earlier point of development. They have a feel to them that is significantly different than other classes -- less refined, more patchwork, and consequently a bit clunky.
Almost every class seems to have at least three specializations presenting themselves right off the bat, but alchemists have more of a mixed bag for the first several levels. After that, they seem to sort into different ways to use bombs, powering up poisons, and specializing in various mutagens? It seems to branch out more slowly, and thanks to mutagen differentiation, a bit more widely (in ways that aren't necessarily bad, but also might limit them).
I'm also really, really not fond of the way nearly everything an alchemist does is tied up in resonance. When they run out, or want to conserve points for an emergency, their options in a battle diminish significantly. Every spellcaster can use cantrips, martial characters have their weapons, but an alchemist has their choice of trained proficiency in simple weapons and not a lot else. They don't really have anything they do that doesn't have a cost associated with it.
And if you compare something like Alchemist's Fire to the Acid Splash cantrip, what alchemists get starts to look pretty paltry. They get some nice status effects they can apply with things like Debilitating Bomb, but they only last one round. Meanwhile, Acid Splash's persistent damage is a DC 20 flat check to remove compared to the Alchemist's Fire's Interact command to remove.
(And given spellcasters will get improved proficiency in spellcasting, while the alchemist doesn't receive any proficiency improvements, they're a lot more likely to land those ranged touch attacks...)
... And of course, casting Acid Splash a few times isn't going to make the wizard suddenly realize he might not be able to invest his Belt of Giant Strength.
Honestly if it were me, I'd overhaul Alchemist. They don't have to go back to being spellcasters look-a-likes, but they could easily be made to resemble other classes in 2E a bit more. They could have a generic bomb cantrip power that could be improved, customized on the fly and empowered using a point reservoir (spell points or some other resource); that would at least let them do things without spending RP in the process.
As for their crafting, I actually like the concept in general, but I feel like getting an expanded reservoir at level 9 is too little, too late, and too tightly restricted. No other class expects to spend every single resonance point every single day the way an alchemist does, or has to juggle so many variables the same way. Detaching a form of offense from the resonance cost would help, but more may possibly be needed to make them truly viable.
(Remarkable Resonance is also rather stingy at only +2 to maximum capacity. I'd suggest that it also decrease the DC for overspending, or remove the critical failure result from overspending?)
(Incidentally, the way alchemical items tend to have RP costs, drawbacks, onset times, or otherwise are made a pain in the butt to use feels like creating a problem to which alchemists are the inadequate solution.)
Addendum while I try to wind this up: of what use is a familiar to the alchemist now? Familiars are so much less useful on the field now that finding uses for one outside of an extra cantrip or spellcasting slot feels like hunting for a niche. I guess giving them communication and a method of movement (climbing, burrowing or swimming) could theoretically give them function as a basic scout, but... yeah, niche uses at best. I wouldn't even trust one to Aid in Craft checks (if they're even able to do so) because their bonuses are so low that they're liable to critically fail more often than not.
Something that would be neat for a Familiar trait would be 'extra Resonance'. Something that is fairly thematic, tied to more than just Alchemist, but would give Alchemist a substantial boost.
Something that might work is remove the tie between Resonance and Advanced Alchemy. Give them instead a certain number of points--maybe even equal to their Resonance--to use with Advanced Alchemy every day, but they only need to use their Resonance for Quick Alchemy. That would be perhaps enough...
You know something is wrong when the Alchemist doesn't want magic weapons or armor because he doesn't want to 'waste' the Resonance investing it.
Also, more of a general Resonance comment, but isn't a Wayfinder... kinda worthless without an Aeon stone? I mean, would you spend 2 RP for... Light?
2 RP? It's not an Invested item, so the only cost should be the Command Activation to produce Light...
And yeah, ideally the alchemy would have its own internal point pool of some kind (spell points or otherwise), but I think the developers are intent on it tying into resonance one way or another.
On one hand though, they can get more bang for their buck per resonance point than other classes -- two items for the price of one when they create things at the start of the day. It just requires foresight that might be unfair to expect of players since they're a bit more limited than spellcasters, I think.
I do kinda wish Efficient Alchemy also doubled how many items you could produce with Advanced Alchemy. It might not be too much, given how much juggling the class has to do, and how many of those items are so situational, or so hard to utilize with a party ("Quick! Let me spend three rounds giving people a Cat's Eye Elixir to see the invisible stalker! Here, Monk, drink this Stone Fist Elixir sixty seconds ago!")
In fact, outside of certain mutagens and poisons, I'm really not sure how well alchemist holds up over time.
But, um, is my group just missing something, and that the Alchemist should be making more alchemical items during downtime?
You seem to be saying that bombs require resonance to use, and I am pretty sure that that is not the case. So if I am right, that is one thing you are missing.
If you buy bombs they don't cost resonance (but do cost quite a bit of silver), if you make them using normal crafting, possibly with efficient alchemy during downtime they still don't (but they cost some), if you make them using quick alchemy they cost resonance only.
If you buy bombs they don't cost resonance (but do cost quite a bit of silver), if you make them using normal crafting, possibly with efficient alchemy during downtime they still don't (but they cost some), if you make them using quick alchemy they cost resonance only.
I do not think we are atually disagreeing, but just to be absolutely clear: If you make them with Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy, they cost you resonance to make. Bombs never cost you (or anyone) resonance to throw. Right?
EDIT: Throwing a bomb is a trike action, not an activate action.
Well, 'alchemical items as treasure' is never something I thought would be useful.
I even discussed your idea, Ediwir, with my brother, and we came to the issue that not all specializations fit at first level. The glaring one is Mutagens... you can't help but trip over their feats once you get to 6th level, so it certainly should be a specialization, but you can't have a specialization that is 'nothing' until 5th level.
You _could_ make a Specialization that is 'Mutagens and Poison', but that's really hackneyed, I think.
What I currently have for it is
Apothecary - you gain the Alchemical Savant class feat.
Demolitionist - you gain the Calculated Splash class feat.
Enhancer - you gain the Enduring Elixir class feat.
Toxicologist - you gain the Cutting Edge Mixture class feat.
Yes, I am rewriting Alchemist for a friend who's running a non-playtest game. Yes, Enhancer will be the mutagen line. No, Alchemical Savant is not *just* the same as the book. Apothecary is meant to be a generalist line based on versatility and a more spread-out approach.
I would be glad to take advice from passionate alchemist players (you can find me on Discord). Hopefully by the time I post this on the forums there's enough good material for Paizo to at least evaluate which parts could be heading in the right direction.
@glass: yes, though quick alchemy needs to be used immediately before throwing the bomb which comes to about the same thing. Bombs prepared at the start of the day w/advanced alchemy only require resonance spent then. I missed that at the time of my previous post.
Since crafted alchemical items do require resonance to use I guess they're for handing off to others to use with their resonance, and bought items are for things you don't have the formula for.
You know something is wrong when the Alchemist doesn't want magic weapons or armor because he doesn't want to 'waste' the Resonance investing it.
That won’t be the problem, since most weapons and armor do not use resonance unless they have a special ability which does - their pluses don’t need resonance. However, it does take away from any other items that require investment. It would be as if the cleric has to choose between their channels and invested item use. A good case can be made for alchemist’s daily alchemy to be divorced from resonance.
You know something is wrong when the Alchemist doesn't want magic weapons or armor because he doesn't want to 'waste' the Resonance investing it.
That won’t be the problem, since most weapons and armor do not use resonance unless they have a special ability which does - their pluses don’t need resonance. However, it does take away from any other items that require investment. It would be as if the cleric has to choose between their channels and invested item use. A good case can be made for alchemist’s daily alchemy to be divorced from resonance.
Pretty much every non-weapon requires either investment or activation. Including your armor. Even some weapons (aka staves, fistwraps, spell duelist's gloves/wands, etc) require Investment.
You know something is wrong when the Alchemist doesn't want magic weapons or armor because he doesn't want to 'waste' the Resonance investing it.
That won’t be the problem, since most weapons and armor do not use resonance unless they have a special ability which does - their pluses don’t need resonance.
Weapons don't usually, but armour does.
avr wrote:
@glass: yes, though quick alchemy needs to be used immediately before throwing the bomb which comes to about the same thing. Bombs prepared at the start of the day w/advanced alchemy only require resonance spent then. I missed that at the time of my previous post.
Since crafted alchemical items do require resonance to use I guess they're for handing off to others to use with their resonance, and bought items are for things you don't have the formula for.
Now I am really confused. In your first paragraph you seems to be agreeing with me, but in your second paragraph you go back to saying downtime-crafted alchemical items require resonance to use, and I am 99% sure that is not the case (for bombs, at least).
Magic and alchemical items require resonance to use if they require one of the Activation actions. Throwing a bomb is not an Activation action, it is a Strike action.
You know something is wrong when the Alchemist doesn't want magic weapons or armor because he doesn't want to 'waste' the Resonance investing it.
That won’t be the problem, since most weapons and armor do not use resonance unless they have a special ability which does - their pluses don’t need resonance. However, it does take away from any other items that require investment. It would be as if the cleric has to choose between their channels and invested item use. A good case can be made for alchemist’s daily alchemy to be divorced from resonance.
Pretty much every non-weapon requires either investment or activation. Including your armor. Even some weapons (aka staves, fistwraps, spell duelist's gloves/wands, etc) require Investment.
Crap, I thought basic magic armor had no investment; I see it now, thanks for the correction. That makes no sense whatsoever. Armor or weapons with activated powers, or powers beyond basic pluses, I can see; but that makes ZERO sense with basic +X armor.
What is extra confusing is that you can craft a sword that grants a cantrip (Flame Tongue; 390), and doesn't require either Investment or Activation. Meanwhile a Staff requires Investment to grant similar benefits (being a magic weapon that grants its wielder a cantrip).
