Should weapon proficiency and magic weapons swap effects?


Magic Items


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I see a fair number of comments that

a) many characters will become very dependent on a single magical weapon because of how big an impact the extra damage dice have

b) when it comes to attacking a monster with a weapon, there isn't a big enough difference between martial classes, classes like cleric/bard and classes like wizard and sorcerer

I worry (a) will mean that fighters don't get the promised ability to be effective with a variety of weapons and swap them around based on situation. (b) leads to spells being painfully dialed down because everyone has a full BAB now.

(a) also leads to the potential feeling that the hero is the magic sword, not the person wielding it

Which gave me an idea - how would people feel if the effects of magic weapons and proficiency swapped?

I.e. your weapon proficiency levels lead to extra damage and magical plusses add to the to hit?

Obviously the levels you got them might need to be tinkered with for balance


Magic already is added to hit.

But otherwise I like the idea.


I think the far better solution is to die extra damage dice to level ie at 4/8/12/16/20 instead of magic weapons. Magic weapons still add to hit and have properties. You get extra damage based on your level to all weapons, so things like javelins, or the gauntlet you wear, or the dagger on your belt are relevant beyond just low levels. It also gives players, especially martials, more flexibility in what they spend their coin on.

This way that level 10 fighter who loses his magic sword can pickup a mundane one and still be competent enough to at least threaten level appropriate enemies.

I've been running a test arena at 4th level, and with this change the fighter used not only his magical pick, but shield bashed a great deal when he didn't want to get his weapon out, he also pulled out his bow when it was useful. Had he not gotten extra dice from those weapons, they would have been stowed and he would have boringly been essentially forced to keep using his pick for every attack.


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I like that idea very much.

Liberty's Edge

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Interesting topic. I like the idea of adding power to the character level and reducing the power of the magic weapons. Let the character be the driving force behind the damage and not the weapon.

Scarab Sages

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You can't just change that like that.

I'm not saying it is not possible but that leads to :
- Change all the economy system
- increase disparity between classes (Barbarian would have 1 dice bellow figther but if you up hit proficiency you also change his accuracy and maybe unbalance a lot of thing).
- You would need to change a lot of classes to stay relevant (adding feat to compensate but that would become feat taxe)
- Probably change bestiary (Well it needs to change anyway)

At this point you would be more efficient to just change the whole system.
(That would probably What I Will do but What suits me and my players would probably be hated by a lot of people)


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I'm in favor of this. Make the damage die progression level or proficiency dependent.
And make magic weapons an attribute similar to flaming, name it "magically refined" or something. So untyped magical weapons can still exist.


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So, rogues (excluding sneak attack), bards, clerics, druids (with their weapons) will almost never get to do more then 1 die of damage with weapons? Almost no martial types can achieve legendary in weapon proficiency.

I suppose you could modify so the proficiency and the potency added dice, but they didn't stack.

Liberty's Edge

I agree there needs to be a larger amount of damage contributed from the character than from the weapon, but this is really, really not the way to do it.

Master and Legendary weapon proficiency are almost exclusive to the fighter. Most classes can't even get expert without multiclassing fighter and at least 12 levels. It is already a very significant disadvantage.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

As I've stated here and here:

IMO, tying weapon damage to proficiency (expert +d, master +2d, and legendary +3d) plus weapon quality (expert no extra dice but can have a rune, master +1d, legendary +2d) and relegating potency to a straight +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls (plus penetrating DR/magic) makes a nice compromise between skill and weapon (note that both are important in many stories). It also keeps the system math reasonably close to the current playtest version; current damage with a +5 potency rune is x6 dice vs. a fighter in the proposed system with legendary proficiency (+3d) and a legendary quality weapon (+2d) is x6 dice.

Some other adjustments would need to be made so that other classes wouldn't be completely left behind compared to the fighter (the first two provide other characters options to gain master proficiency and do x5 dice):
- Barbarians' Critical Brutality would give them expert proficiency with melee weapons and unarmed attacks, as well as the critical specialization effects, when raging. Weapon Fury would then increase the proficiency of melee and unarmed attacks when raging to master, as well as granting expert proficiency to simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks when not raging.

- Add a Fighter Dedication feat that allows master proficiency in a weapon group (level requirement 16 or 18, must already have expert proficiency).

- Rogues' Sneak Attack increases might need to be re-balanced to occur at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. Or possibly 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. (The math would need to be checked against the fighter's damage; rogues shouldn't consistently be doing more damage than the fighter).


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I honestly, absolutely, wish that level gave the extra dice.
and then the magic properties had more to do with weapon durability and things like returning or flaming.

I do NOT think it should relate to proficiency at all. So many classes do not gain proficiency in weapons, but are quite dependent on it..
Like Alchemists.

My ThrowChemist will never gain more profiency in his Darts. Unless I multiclass to fighter,s witch to shuriken and gain proficiency in that.

Frankly having extra dice associated with my level would mean I could actually continue to use throwing weapons (instead of having to invest everything in to one dartr, or one shuriken, or one dagger (less range but CQC ability).

Plus.. that would mean someone could Kick+Throw and actually be effective as a concept.

Envoy's Alliance

that would help the wild druid in wild shape that wont get extra dice ever

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