A problem in Errata 1.1 and Death & Dying?


General Discussion


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Happy to see a revision to the death and dying rules, but one rule needs revision/clarification.

The 1.1 Errata states that, when you get knocked out, three things happen. The last is:

Quote:
* If the damage came from a lethal source, you gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead. If the damage came from a nonlethal attack or effect, you don’t gain the dying condition, but you are still unconscious with 0 Hit Points.

Later, the Errata states:

Quote:

Taking Damage while Dying

If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out by that damage, except you don’t move your initiative position. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC.

So if you had the dying 3 condition, if you have a normal failure against a fireball spell, you now have the dying 1 condition... ?

It seems like the rule should read: "When you are damaged, the value of the Dying condition increases by 1. It is instead increased by 2 if you are critted by the attack or have a critical failure on your saving throw."

(Also, it looks like the section should be called "Taking Damage while Unconscious" since you can be unconscious and NOT dying. And I'm not sure why it cross-references the rules for getting knocked out when only one of the bullet points applies - perhaps it should just state what happens (increase Dying value by 1 or 2) without cross-referencing another rule.)


Also, Hero Points can be used when gaining a Dying level, so can't be used to recover from being just unconscious?
And can a Hero Point be used as one gets struck right as the PC gains that first Dying level? If so, are they slowed, never actually having had a Dying level?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Actually, what I'd really want clarification on is what happens when you get rid of your dying condition via Recovery Saving Throws. From the looks of it, if you make your saves and no longer have the dying condition (reduce it to "dying 0"), then you are still knocked out and at 0 HP. The only way to regain consciousness is to either heal your hit points or wait the 10+ minutes to regain consciousness naturally. Is how it is intended to work?

I mean, it definitely makes more realistic sense this way. However, while the instantly-back-up-when-healed rules seem very much in line with the stated goal of getting "people back into the fight more consistently by removing the recovery roll for unconscious characters", the fact that characters now seemingly cannot regain consciousness at all via recovery rolls seems completely counter to that goal.


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The suggestions for the recovery DCs are also (still) vague and overly complex.
It should be something like a DC 10 flat check (so 1 is +2 stages, 2-9 is +1, 10-19 is -1, 20 is -2) or a DC 14 + attacker's level fort save rather than faffing with individual DCs for wether the attacker is using magic or physical attacks, the phase of the moon, the season etc.


Would replacing some of the text with a flow diagram be useful?


Also with the new dying rules

An "UNBREAKABLE", GRAY MAIDEN with the DIEHARD feat can still hit dying 5. Which would result in Slow 5........

I think that UNBREAKABLE and/or DIEHARD also need an update.


The Rot Grub wrote:


So if you had the dying 3 condition, if you have a normal failure against a fireball spell, you now have the dying 1 condition... ?
ttack or have a critical failure on your saving throw."[/b]

(Also, it looks like the section should be called "Taking Damage while Unconscious" since you can be unconscious and NOT dying. And I'm not sure why it cross-references the rules for getting knocked out when only one of the bullet points applies - perhaps it should just state what happens (increase Dying value by 1 or 2) without cross-referencing another rule.)

I think this passage from page 319 address that

Condition values, paragraph 2, 1st sentence wrote:
If you’re affected by a condition with a value multiple times, you apply only the higher value, although you might have to track both durations if one has a lower value but lasts longer.

So if you have 'dying 3' and get damaged, you will gain another 'dying 1' (or at most 'dying 2') condition , but since the general rule state apply only the higher value, you stay at dying 3.

With this, there's no real way to die except to fail your dying check.


Good catch Rot Grub.

morairtym: I think it's still better to be Dying 5 than dead... Why wouldn't it take longer to recover?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Jason S wrote:
morairtym: I think it's still better to be Dying 5 than dead... Why wouldn't it take longer to recover?

Also, from how I understand it, being slowed 5 for 1 round is no different than being slowed 3 for 1 round; either way you can't spend any of our main actions during the round, and then it goes away. It doesn't take any longer to recover from waking up, no matter what slowed value you end up with.

CommanderCoyler wrote:

The suggestions for the recovery DCs are also (still) vague and overly complex.

It should be something like a DC 10 flat check (so 1 is +2 stages, 2-9 is +1, 10-19 is -1, 20 is -2) or a DC 14 + attacker's level fort save rather than faffing with individual DCs for wether the attacker is using magic or physical attacks, the phase of the moon, the season etc.

Personally, I don't have any issue with how the DC is figured out. It's no worse than a lot of the other things the GM has to come up with. And I for one would despise having recovery changed to a flat DC check.


morairtym wrote:

Also with the new dying rules

An "UNBREAKABLE", GRAY MAIDEN with the DIEHARD feat can still hit dying 5. Which would result in Slow 5........

I think that UNBREAKABLE and/or DIEHARD also need an update.

Vidgamer that I am, I would be seriously tempted to give them the 254 actions per round slow 5 would provide to an unsigned number of actions.

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