Alchemists should be like Adlet from Rokka no Yuusha


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Howdy. Just tossing out random bits..

I really want P2's alchemist to be like Adlet in Rokka no Yuusha (I don't think I can link here? but youtube Adliet's tournament or vs everyone).

he is basically a tricky fighter who is not as good at combat as the other heroes, nor does he have magic. He simply uses tons of items, tricks and weapons, poisons, alchemical/chemical items to make do.

he is the perfect example for what the 2EAlchemist should be. and what I feel like it attempted but rather failed at doing to various extents.

So. I think they should be able to alchemically replicate some other specific things..

Bring back the Shard Gels, Pellet Grenades. Allow for Alchemically made Snares that last a day. (and maybe fix that issue of not being able to carry
Consider allowing anything made with Quick Alchemy to also be able to be used in the same action.
_That oil+mouth flint thing would make for a pretty awesome thing. I've been replicating it with Oil+tinderwigs

Looking at Adlet's combat style+ helping the the resources per day issue, would really help solidify the Alchemist's design idea. Its fine to be not great at any one thing, if you can do a lot of things decently. Alchemists seem like the Item Lords.. so they should be allowed to properly do it.

Also. Alchemist dearly need to have a copy of Quick Draw (like Ranger and Rogue) and their own version of Rogue poisoned' Weapon.
Yeah, you generally try to avoid copying things I guess.. but both of those are absolutely needed for Alchemist to even operate..
as it stands?
they really have to dip into Rogue or Fighter to make any sense.
Speaking of fighter..
both rogue and alchemists should really get something similiar to the "attack twice at -2 without multi attack penalties" but for bombs/knives/darts/shuriken"

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Well I'll put the links in this one.. becaues I'm not sure the allowances for it. Seems like you can?

But Adlet is how I view a high level Alchemist should fight. he really isnt' better at combat straight up than any of them. but uses plenty of smart combat techniques and ideas to get by. In fact many of his actions really scream "quick alchemy" and all his preperations are exactly Daily Allotment of Advanced Alchemy.

The second video shows it all really well comapred to other characters.. Who honestly fight a lot like other classes.

first fight (literal 10mins into the anime) no spoilers in this one for the anime.

fan video of his fights vs lots of folks. this one has lots of spoilers though.

My alchemist is based out of him actually so I am biased.
I do really note that.... Pathfidner does not support thrown items whatsoever. There really needs to be some sort of magic item for enchanting them. (or innate potency on character and runes are on things only). Or at the very least.. I don't get why Darts are not 0 reload like shuriken.

Offical and proper viewing of the series via Crunchy Roll if you wish

Why should this be limited to Alchemist when anyone in 1st edition can do the same thing? If you want to play Adlet (in 1st edition), go Human with the Racial Heritage (Ratfolk) or Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat to grab Pack Rat or Well-Prepared. Take Brilliant Plannner, Black Marketeer, and Pathfinder Chronicler too boot. Boom, you have Adlet - a player who can purchase anything 25 gold or less anytime he wants to (or slight of hand checks for a item with DC 10+Items gold Cost), 100gp of questionably obtained merchandise, and 150 gold/level that can be present on the character before actually choosing what you buy. Adlet in a nutshell!

Now... unfortunately 2nd edition is new and doesn't have as many "smart guy" options as they do in 1st edition, but I'm sure they'll print some feats like this in 2e.... Hopefully...

I can work with this is any one on design team reading this can you put the idea on development list.

Did you mean canceled?

Joking aside, it would be nice if they had more permanent access to their abilities. Being a tricky fighter is certainly one way to do it. I think at the very least they deserve a free level 1 multiclass archetype feat so they can pick what kind of sustain abilities they'd have.

@ monkey fish.

The reason being.... that the class itself is built highly towards that idea but misses the mark? THe class is quite literally directed towards using items cleverly, choosing the right item and target for the right time. I mean this class's directive is quite literally "free items a day" no other class does that.. They can do it with money, and thats fine.

Also. that build in pathfinder 1.0 woudln't really work well. The choices are neat. but fact is P Chronicler is pretty rough, and depending on what class you start out with your BAB might b e too low to honestly pull off a lot of combat stuff with that. Additionally having used those choices over other things means your feats are a bit lacking as well. Plus.. you'd be hemorrhaging money. Not to mention just a surprlus of not really useful class skills (chronicler is kind of really bad for stuf except for the lovely bag item)

That replicates the concept but it isn't particularly effective. Which is a shame.

This alchemist in 2.0? It is just a few changes away from honestly fulfilling the concept of an item user. without being terribly in efficient with other choices. It is just the perfect framework. Adliet is simply the best item user example I know of in .. well anything. Better than batman (who lets be honest, basically has Dues Ex Machina as a super power. not an item user. Tim Drake would be a better example, or Jason Todd)

I'd already consider the Alchemist class to be the smart guy class. It just isn't even enough of a class yet. (RP issues, sustained combat issues, actual good choices of their own class feats over the whole levels compared to the dedication feats).

It would really only take allowing the RP to craft full Batch instead of 1/2. And/Or creating a separate pool. having all things effect anything made by Adv Alch (instead of just Quick Alch), then streamline item drawing/usage (NOT just weapons) for the class and they'd be in a fairly decent place. The rest would be about player combat style.

ErichAD wrote:

Did you mean canceled?

Joking aside, it would be nice if they had more permanent access to their abilities. Being a tricky fighter is certainly one way to do it. I think at the very least they deserve a free level 1 multiclass archetype feat so they can pick what kind of sustain abilities they'd have.

cancelled? you mean the anime? It is on the list to be produced next year or the year after actually. The lightnovel just released a new volume this year (only one not in English yet).

I don't think i'd agree with the lv 1 multiclass idea.
I'd rather their sustain be in the form of either weapon usage buff. Or non discript item of some sort.

Basically. Maybe a weak bomb, or you know what. just straight up INT splash damage effect. (pure INT or maybe d4+int) (or something they can apply to weapons) . Or Poison Weapon (like the rogue). Or a "mutagen lite" made at level 1.
Whatever effect they build up with later class feats, gets applied to actual item versions they use as well.

For example.. the d4 from poison weapon is a free poison that just does an extra d4.. just like the rogue's verson. But if you apply an actual poison to a weapon later the D4 becomes na extra damage rider effect on it that is applied (then they make the save as per normal poison)

The small boosts from mutagen lite are added to actual mutagen boosts.

the small bomb splash effect damage, it replaces the splash damage on whatever item you are using, or gives the item splash damage if it doesn't have it (of the same type as your ability)

maybe there could be feats later that adds to the base effect, and may or may not effect the "rider" versions maybe increasing the base damages, or unlocking some sorta extra thing. who knows.

Small changes like this, would allow a real paths for the Alchemist, give small buffs, help sustain considerably. and give design space for later Alchemist feats.

I agree it would be better if their sustain was unique to them, but the easiest fix for the class would be giving them their necessary multiclass a level early.

An int to damage effect does sound more appealing overall though. However, that only gets you through the first few levels. They really should have a firearms option. Choosing between perma-poison, musket, earlier permanent mutagen/elixir would be pretty nice.

Glad to hear "Rokka no Yuusha" got picked up for more. It started to get more entertaining near the end there and I was finally starting to get into it.

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Yeah. It would be plenty useful.

I would kind of like if they had some form of "alchemical blaster"
Actually in general it would be cool to get a "cannon" tha they can fire alchemical items with. Maybe allowing for two modes (simple fire, and "spread fire" cone effect), and then just gunpowder blast or something.

but, i doubt they'll do that.. honestly this would be the time though, with the TAC changes having a weapon that targetted it wouldn't really be that big of a deal.

now that i've written this out..

I do like the idea of a base Alchemcial Profiency granting a user specific "alchemical substance" unique to the alchemist-perhaps syntheszed from their own blood (allowing for immunity to it), which can be applied to a weapon and act as a poison. thrown on a target as a splash effect. Can be applied to bombs (and maybe auto applied to bombs made via quick alchemy) or consumed and act as a mutagen (or combined with one)
This would be something like lv ! D4+INT. This D4 increases by 1 dice every time Empower Bombds does (i.e. d4 eventually d6)

When used with a weapon this is poison damage (as per the Rogue's feat) NOT a poison DC effect (like normal Poisons).

When thrown as a Bomb this applies splash as per usual (D4+splash on target, splash for the rest) Poison damage also. (when added to a it just adds straight up so you get both effects on target and splash area unless damage type, in which case the higher wins) (this bomb can't really be shared as it would poison anyone else)
As mentioned, this requires an action to apply to the bomb (same as applying to weapons in general) BUT when created via Quick Alchemy it is automatically

When consumed it acts as a mutagen it provides a boost to some sort of stats (maybe just Temp HP, AC, or to hit?) equal to the number of Dice applied. When consumed with a normal mutagen the effects stack together.

Ideally this would not have a limit per day on uses. But. have a limit of INT iterations at once (limiting how much prepoison a dart user or crossbower could do). D4+int up to 6d4+INT isn't a terrible lot of damage.. other classes have similar riders or the ability to hit more accurately/more times/far harder. As it would be 1 action to create/throw the splash weapon version it would compare decently to cantrips (which take two actions) while also being balanced by the Multiple Attack penalty.

This is, effectively a weaker Sneak Attack that requires an action to apply (to weapons, which then requires another action to hit with) or use (bombs straight up use) or cantrips. It would be a fairly decent sustain. that would be extremely flavorful.

With the INT limit of iterations of the poison/bomb in existence at one time. that would prevent them from loading up on too many of them at once. BUT still allow them to apply them to their allies weapons as a team suppport action (which would directly limit what they could do) this would allow for Alchemist builds who focus on supporting the group with status effects and buffs/debuffs.

Since Alchemists have kind of lousy accuracy. being able to focus on one solid strike a round would be of benefit.
1action apply poison to weapon, 2nd action use weapon. 3rd.. whatever
1action draw alchemical bomb, action 2 apply poison to bomb, 3rd use bomb. 1action
(or with quick draw as described below)
2action: draw, poison, use 3rd action whatever

Additionally, just to reiterate. Alchemists need a "Quick draw" that works for weapons and alchemical items (not just bombs). Interact action + USE (strike, drink, apply whatever) Ideally with a lv 8+ feat that would allow using 2 actions at once to use Alchemical Profiency's Substance along with the quick draw+use. So. using 2 actions at once they could draw, poison and (throw a knife/bomb or drink a spiked elixer, or spiked mutagen). THIS is needed because the way Quick Draw works in the current game, drawing+attack is one action, (instead of drawing a weapon as a free action). Meaning. You can not do anything extra to the item, You can not even hold it. You must strike with it. It needs an expansion to allow comboing.

I also think they could use a "apply poison in 1action" effect like Rogues, but honestly if they get Alchemical Profiency+Substance I don't care too much because they won't need that damage boost.

Lastly. Concerning the RP Supply issue. IF they want it to remain tied to Resounce Points, They -must- change the Daily Allotment to be Full Batch. and allow the lv 9 bonus stuff to apply to Advanced Alchemy (instead of quick alchemy. I believe they did this explicitly to prevent magic item abuse.. but applying only to Adv Alchemy solves this issue while giving the player far more agency and use out of it). Having a full batch and more open ended points+ Alchemical Profiency would give the Alchemist the dynamics of Sustain. and make using Alchemical Bombs honesty and truly worth the RP/Actions required. It would allow for alchemist who want to hand out just buffs to do so and still contribue in combat, and would allow those who want to do damage/debuffs to still do so. The limit via action economy would be similar to Casters.

What are anyone's thoughts on this idea?

This, is the best I can think of for an Item Master, which Alchemists should be and try to be IMO.
(oh.. and Alchemical Snares would be lovely.
Along with Liquid Blades (make it mercury like metal that you coat a blade with, it memorizes the form, and assumes that form when exposed to the electrical current/air )
and absolutely need SHARD GELS!
and Pellet Grenades)

Glad so see so many shard gel fans! While they are at it, totally allow them to be poisoned like liquid blades for a deadly surprise!

I always imaged aldet to be an alchemist/rogues, by pf2 standards, though I definately think cool gadgeteer tricks are definately the way to go for the alchemist's design ideals

Totally! Poisoning caltrops and Shard Gels in general need to be a thing. but hey.. At least we can collect normal Caltrops in this mode.

I think in p2 he really should be based out of Alchemist.
He does sneak attack, but his sneak attacks are kind of weak sauce and really just let him hit better.

Which, honestly he feels like 2 or 3 Rogue Dedication feats in this one. slight sneak attack, flatfooted knowledge.
In P1, he was a lot weirder.. but VMC worked fairly decently. Just not a lot of cool tools to represent his item style.

I think a lot of it comes down to a player's playstyle to replicate his tricks. Gadgeteer just gives a good framework for a variety of builds, and seems to be what the class is geared towards.

Well It also really requires the streamlining of item use for that class.

also now that its morning and not like 1-3am..

It occurs to me having that base skill be poison damage would probably make it so you can't use it on maany things.

So maybe have an elemental choice (or just base fire I guess), then class feat choices to give element choices.
and lv 4 give the Poiison Weapon feat, similar to the Rogue's that allows weapon poisoning via 1 action. But, instead of the d4 of damage the rogue's ability does, instead it unlocks POison Damage as an option for the Substance.

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