paizo.com Recent Posts in Access to +Dex to Damagepaizo.com Recent Posts in Access to +Dex to Damage2018-09-05T00:35:47Z2018-09-05T00:35:47ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageMalkynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#822018-10-04T17:59:12Z2018-10-04T17:59:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>I mean it's pretty simple, from investing in dex rather than strength, you get:
<br />
- Better reflex save
<br />
- Better skill use (1 skill is str based, 3 are dex-based)
<br />
- Armor that doesn't get in your way (no speed reduction, no ACP, no downsides like clumsy or noisy).
<br />
- Better armor class at low levels.</p>
<p>Plus, this is PF2 not PF1 so having a 14 str by level 5 is pretty painless (you boost skills 4 at a time), so you're down all of 2 points of damage from lacking dex-to-damage. I have two dex based martials for PF2 (a Dwarf Monk who uses tiger style and an elf rogue who uses a curve blade) neither seems incomplete without dex-to-damage. I mean, the absolute most damage dex-to-damage would add over one's career is 8 per hit (a 8 str gnome or halfling with a 24 dex from 20 levels and a potent magic item), but most people who want to fight in melee are going to be able to manage a 16 or 18 by level 20 so we're talking about 3-4 extra damage on a 20th level character. </blockquote><p>You, like many others, are overlooking the reduced damage dice finesse weapons contend with. See above analysis for details. Lacking dex to damage (especially because RAW Finesse Striker doesn't work with an elven-curve blade (and thus the most accurate comparison would really be a d6 vs a d12, which is not even factored into the above)) in addition to dealing with the lower dice is a case of kicking the dex fighter while it's already down.PossibleCabbage wrote:I mean it's pretty simple, from investing in dex rather than strength, you get:
- Better reflex save
- Better skill use (1 skill is str based, 3 are dex-based)
- Armor that doesn't get in your way (no speed reduction, no ACP, no downsides like clumsy or noisy).
- Better armor class at low levels.
Plus, this is PF2 not PF1 so having a 14 str by level 5 is pretty painless (you boost skills 4 at a time), so you're down all of 2 points of damage from lacking dex-to-damage....Malkyn2018-10-04T17:59:12ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamagePossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#812018-09-30T17:56:30Z2018-09-30T05:03:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">swordchucks wrote:</div><blockquote>The extension of this question becomes "what do you get in exchange for having worse damage dice?" That... honestly should probably come from combat options and class feats, not raw damage output. </blockquote><p>I mean it's pretty simple, from investing in dex rather than strength, you get:
</p>
- Better reflex save
<br />
- Better skill use (1 skill is str based, 3 are dex-based)
<br />
- Armor that doesn't get in your way (no speed reduction, no ACP, no downsides like clumsy or noisy).
<br />
- Better armor class at low levels.</p>
<p>Plus, this is PF2 not PF1 so having a 14 str by level 5 is pretty painless (you boost skills 4 at a time), so you're down all of 2 points of damage from lacking dex-to-damage. I have two dex based martials for PF2 (a Dwarf Monk who uses tiger style and an elf rogue who uses a curve blade) neither seems incomplete without dex-to-damage. I mean, the absolute most damage dex-to-damage would add over one's career is 8 per hit (a 8 str gnome or halfling with a 24 dex from 20 levels and a potent magic item), but most people who want to fight in melee are going to be able to manage a 16 or 18 by level 20 so we're talking about 3-4 extra damage on a 20th level character.</p>swordchucks wrote:The extension of this question becomes "what do you get in exchange for having worse damage dice?" That... honestly should probably come from combat options and class feats, not raw damage output.
I mean it's pretty simple, from investing in dex rather than strength, you get:
- Better reflex save
- Better skill use (1 skill is str based, 3 are dex-based)
- Armor that doesn't get in your way (no speed reduction, no ACP, no downsides like clumsy or noisy).
- Better armor...PossibleCabbage2018-09-30T05:03:02ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageMalkynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#802018-09-30T04:40:01Z2018-09-30T04:40:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cyrad wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted]</blockquote><p>And, as stated elsewhere, dex weapons have smaller damage dice, and thus the difference is more pronounced. And that would be fine, the trade is not having to care about strength. Disallowing dex to damage puts a dex fighter behind on damage dice <i>and</i> ability boosts. See the above analysis for how that shakes out.
<p><b>TL;DR:</b> Read the thread before posting, please, lest you threaten to contribute nothing.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">swordchucks wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted]</blockquote><p>Strictly speaking, the trade is not caring about Strength. Most people are way overvaluing that. The most a Strength fighter needs to put into Dex is a 14, or even only a 12 (see above analysis). That puts the dex fighter two ability boosts ahead of the strength fighter, but the strength fighter deals an easy 25% more damage. Thus the strength fighter deals more damage, but a dex fighter has small buffs elsewhere, such as two extra trained skills, two more initiative and will saves, two more resonance points, or one instance of any two prior options mentioned in this sentence. And while I'd say that trade is in the strength fighters favor, I can make peace with it in exchange for the option existing to allow the fantasy of the agile fighter.
<p><b>TL;DR:</b> Better tertiary bonuses in the form of two more ability boosts, and the technical ability to switch-hit, as Unicore points out (although I'm responding to him next). I'd like the trade to be more substantial, but am okay with where it is now otherwise.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted] </blockquote><p>The problem with what-ifs is that they quickly threaten to spiral out of control and make any and all figures irrelevant. And you can scenario-craft your way into making most things situationally useless. Watch: What if a dex fighter or archer gets grappled? What about entangled? What about tanglefoot bags? All of those have strength-based escapes, and would - as such - hamper the dex fighter far more than the strength fighter.
<p>Point is, being hung up on what-ifs is pointless. In an open, featureless field, your scenario has some merit, but having just run a barbarian and a rogue in the same party through Part 2 of Doomsday Dawn - which was a bit of a poster child at times for outdoor empty spaces - I assure you that the 15ft barbarian had no trouble closing on and murdering enemies like the hyenadon in one round. </p>
<p>Your mention of ranged weaponry is also not without merit - a dex fighter is going to be a more capable switch-hitter. However, this is with regards to discussing melee fighting, and while the agile hero <i>can</i> pull a crossbow and shoot something, it isn't typically in line with the fantasy of playing that type of character, and so a melee-intended dex fighter is pretty unlikely to be supporting their ranged switch-hitting with class feats to support it. And thus it feels less like a bonus to playing a dex fighter and more like an "Oh. Yeah, I guess I can do that too?" It's not what you make that character for, most of the time.</p>
<p><b>TL;DR:</b> Having the option to switch hit is okay, but it's not what dex fighter enthusiasts are here for, so to speak.</p>Cyrad wrote:[Spoiler omitted]
And, as stated elsewhere, dex weapons have smaller damage dice, and thus the difference is more pronounced. And that would be fine, the trade is not having to care about strength. Disallowing dex to damage puts a dex fighter behind on damage dice and ability boosts. See the above analysis for how that shakes out. TL;DR: Read the thread before posting, please, lest you threaten to contribute nothing.
swordchucks wrote:[Spoiler omitted]
Strictly speaking, the...Malkyn2018-09-30T04:40:01ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageUnicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#792018-09-07T19:40:32Z2018-09-07T19:37:13Z<p>The biggest issue the STR based fighter is going to face in matching the damage output CommanderCoyler lists in his math is when the enemy doesn't stand still and take the damage that the character is dishing out. That is very hard to factor into these kind of theory crafting situations, but the more damage the character does, and the more limited her movement is by heavy armor, the less likely she will be getting those hits in as enemies rightful avoid giving her more than one attack around. Enemies might also fight tactically against a character using a lighter blade, but will be less likely to sacrifice their own opportunities to attack, especially because the light armored character is going to be keeping up.</p>
<p>A fighter is going to be moving 15ft an action in heavy armor until level 17. Even assuming they have sudden charge, that is 45ft of moving and one attack action a turn. But a unencumbered enemy could be covering 50ft with only 2 movement actions. It is pretty reasonable to assume that there is going to be a significant loss in number of attacks for a two-handed fighter in comparison to ranged or more mobile Dex-based fighters. Probably at a rate of atleast to 2 to 1. </p>
<p>This is a huge part of why the short bow (and composite short bow) is a much better weapon then their damage output makes you think.</p>The biggest issue the STR based fighter is going to face in matching the damage output CommanderCoyler lists in his math is when the enemy doesn't stand still and take the damage that the character is dishing out. That is very hard to factor into these kind of theory crafting situations, but the more damage the character does, and the more limited her movement is by heavy armor, the less likely she will be getting those hits in as enemies rightful avoid giving her more than one attack around....Unicore2018-09-07T19:37:13ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to Damageswordchuckshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#782018-09-07T18:31:07Z2018-09-07T14:46:19Z<p>This feels like a red herring.</p>
<p>From the analysis, the overwhelming factor is the weapon damage dice. The static modifier is important at the lowest levels but rapidly loses relevance as levels go on.</p>
<p>The extension of this question becomes "what do you get in exchange for having worse damage dice?" That... honestly should probably come from combat options and class feats, not raw damage output.</p>This feels like a red herring.
From the analysis, the overwhelming factor is the weapon damage dice. The static modifier is important at the lowest levels but rapidly loses relevance as levels go on.
The extension of this question becomes "what do you get in exchange for having worse damage dice?" That... honestly should probably come from combat options and class feats, not raw damage output.swordchucks2018-09-07T14:46:19ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageGM Sethhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#772018-09-07T11:28:53Z2018-09-07T11:28:53Z<p>This is one of the biggest complaints i heard at my table when we started the playtest last week. My players weren't happy with this change.</p>This is one of the biggest complaints i heard at my table when we started the playtest last week. My players weren't happy with this change.GM Seth2018-09-07T11:28:53ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageCyrad (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#762018-09-07T06:15:54Z2018-09-07T06:15:54Z<p>Dex-to-damage doesn't feel necessary in Pathfinder 2.0 as it does in 1.0 because much of your damage scaling comes from the bonus damage dice from magic weapons.</p>Dex-to-damage doesn't feel necessary in Pathfinder 2.0 as it does in 1.0 because much of your damage scaling comes from the bonus damage dice from magic weapons.Cyrad (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16)2018-09-07T06:15:54ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageMalkynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#752018-09-07T05:43:28Z2018-09-07T04:39:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>basic functions like weapon choice and effectiveness should not be one of those things in a game where you are trying to tell people to be diverse and play what you want.</blockquote>That assumes you can't be a good dex user and not be a rogue. This is flatly false. Its another hyperbolic statement that is flatly not supported by fact.</blockquote><p>You... Actually can't. Like, several people have run the numbers already. A dex-based character that has to use strength for damage is not viable. Yeah, some people are like "I've got a level 1 that it works on!" to which I kinda say "That's great, but when level 0 enemies have less than 10 hp, everything works. That won't scale well, I all but guarantee it."
<p>But here, I'll gather the data and show you. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">CommanderCoyler wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted]</blockquote><p>Coyler had his math right, but he didn't bring it home in a way that paints a complete picture for comparison. But to start, let's be clear: a loss of 14-29% of damage is huge. Of note: his figures assume the strength character maxes dex as much as possible, and it influences the strength character's damage not at all. And it probably doesn't affect his AC much either. As you and others have pointed out, a strength character isn't going to need much more than a 14 in Dex. Case in point:
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Raynulf wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted]</blockquote><p>A strength fighter who goes to only 12 dex is consistently going to match if not outperform someone maxing dex. In the AC arena, it's essentially a tie with a slight favor toward the strength fighter.
<p>So a strength fighter beats a dex fighter on damage <i>and</i> AC in the current system. Allowing dex to damage gives Coyle's dex fighter 1 more point of damage, bringing that percentage gap down to, oh... 9-25% more damage in favor of the strength fighter.</p>
<p>But - and this is important - the theoretical 21 dex on Coyle's strength fighter was largely superfluous. Raynulf's example demonstrates that strength fighter could comfortably leave dex at 12... In much the same way a dex-to-damage fighter could comfortably leave strength at 12.</p>
<p>In the current system, the dex-to-hit-but-str-to-damage fighter is actually <i>forced</i> to pump two attributes to the max... Thus making all dex fighters forced to use strength for damage both more homogeneous (that thing you can't stop proclaiming your dread for) and less flexible in terms of their other stats than the strength fighter by 4 ability boosts... All while playing second stringer in combat. Presuming the math is based around the strength fighter's damage, the dex-to-hit-str-to-damage fighter is just outright less useful in essentially every way.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>Now, for your inevitable counter-points: </p>
<p>"The strength fighter still needs 12-14 dex, the dex fighter can leave their str at 10." To which I will say "yes, this is true." However, you and others have pointed out the veritable cornucopia of ability boosts the system goes out of its way to hand out. Using one or two of those to round out AC is honestly probably a trade in the strength fighter's favor when you consider they have an upper damage range advantage of an easy 25%. The - at most - two ability boost advantage the dex fighter gains doesn't really outweigh that. Like not even close.</p>
<p>Your next point will be reflex saves. My counter-point is two-fold. First, reflex is the least important save. It protects you from some damage. You can heal that pretty readily, but I will grant it feels nice to just nope a substantial portion of an enemy's AoE damage. But... you know what can prevent the wrong people from taking damage, and thus obviate the need to heal at all? My second counterpoint: battlefield control. Strength characters have a <i>lot</i> of battlefield control in the Athletics skill. Tripping, shoving, grappling... I actually really like the added utility given to strength characters there and consider it far more valuable than a reflex save. One is a number boost, the other is a whole wealth of options.</p>
<p>Your last point, specifically, Datalore, will likely be some nonsense about player envy or comparisons to other systems. To that end, I have kept my argument purely to PF2, and stated the advantages to both without suggesting each should get what the other has. With that in mind and the above numbers, are you still going to say dex to damage still doesn't deserve to be an option in the playtest? Make it a level 3 general feat, let people see how it fares in the game, take it out of the final product if the sentiment is that it somehow breaks things in practice. The numbers suggest it won't be a problem, however.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">P.S. wrote:</div><blockquote>[Spoiler omitted]</blockquote><p>DataLoreRPG wrote:Quote:basic functions like weapon choice and effectiveness should not be one of those things in a game where you are trying to tell people to be diverse and play what you want.
That assumes you can't be a good dex user and not be a rogue. This is flatly false. Its another hyperbolic statement that is flatly not supported by fact.You... Actually can't. Like, several people have run the numbers already. A dex-based character that has to use strength for damage is not viable....Malkyn2018-09-07T04:39:33ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageHWalshhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#742018-09-04T23:06:15Z2018-09-04T23:00:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Malkyn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>You haven't answered the question: Str characters already need some dex for AC, how would changing something unrelated make them more MAD?</blockquote><p>In comparison to dex builds, obviously
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Your 'meaningful' choice: 'Do what I say or go home'</blockquote>Lol, we are done </blockquote>Question, dude: you played the game at all, or are you an armchair analyst? If the latter, do you have numbers to back up your claims? Because plenty of people are giving data on how the two would be different but competent in their own ways. People are suggesting ways to make certain shortfalls work (heavier armor really does need some adjusting, dex to damage or no). But all I've seen you do is play goal-keeper. So, you got numbers supporting your nay-saying? Have you tried playing a dex-based non-rogue martial? Do you have <i>any</i> empirical evidence that things currently work fine when so many disagree? </blockquote><p>I do!
<p>Ran a Str 14, Dex 18 double slice ranger with short swords. 1d6+2 damage an average of 5-6 per hit.</p>
<p>The Str 18 Dex 14 longsword Paladin hit for 1d8+4 average of 8-9 often missed the second hit though, unlike the ranger.</p>
<p>A difference of 3 damage does not a gimped character make.</p>Malkyn wrote:DataLoreRPG wrote: Quote:You haven't answered the question: Str characters already need some dex for AC, how would changing something unrelated make them more MAD?
In comparison to dex builds, obviously Quote:Your 'meaningful' choice: 'Do what I say or go home'
Lol, we are done Question, dude: you played the game at all, or are you an armchair analyst? If the latter, do you have numbers to back up your claims? Because plenty of people are giving data on how the two would be...HWalsh2018-09-04T23:00:55ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#732018-09-04T22:22:26Z2018-09-04T21:45:50Z<p>Again, revisit my posts if you want all the reasons why Dex2Dam is bad. In truth, I don't particularly like it for the Rogue either but am OK with it as a unique class gated thing. I don't particularly think they need it either since in both games I run the rogue is leaving a trail a corpses with SA. But I get why the included it since a large plurality of enemies are immune to precision damage. Having seen a Rogue suffer through 3.5 Age of Worms where they couldn't sneak attack anything, I get it.</p>
<p>Some arguments in brief...
<br />
1. Strength builds still need to invest in some Dex (up to about 14; higher if using medium armor). Dex2Dam character has nearly zero need for strength. This is no bueno in my book.
<br />
2. Stats feel different now. Having them function the same make characters "samey." At present, if you invest in strength, you are likely less mobile, have worse ranged attack capability, have lower reflex saves, lower touch ac and you deal more damage. If you invest mostly in dex, you are likely faster (light armor), have higher touch ac, higher reflex, better ranged attack and you deal less damage. These are very different characters but they are both cool. To (somewhat) see these archetypes in one class take a look at the monk (Dragon vs Crane and Wolf/Tiger in the middle).
<br />
3. Advocates of Dex2Dam want to make armor choice mean less too. So now stats mean less and armor means less.
<br />
4. More stuff I am too lazy to type again.</p>
<p>As an aside: Brute force cut and thrust weapons existed. Rapiers were long and heavy (not like dainty smallswords). A strong man with a rapier can kill the hell out of anyone. If they wanted to impose some kinda penalty for using strength with a finesse weapon, I wouldn't actually care but it wouldn't really make sense. If I am going to get stabbed by a guy, I would rather it not be David Bautista. Now we are getting into silly "simulationist" arguments though. This is largely a "gamist" discussion.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>If so, then I would point out that you yourself brought up the fact that most weapons can't use Dex to hit as most weapons are not finesse weapons. If using dex2dam with a non finesse weapons is MAD, then doesn't that problem kind of solve itself?</blockquote><p>Nope, not really. Str users are still more MAD (still have to invest in Dex as noted above) than Dex users when Dex2Dam is common place (in addition to all other penalties and limitations they suffer).
<p>Folks may have a hard time believing this but Paizo, a set of professional game developers who spent two years making this, did a damn fine job here.</p>Again, revisit my posts if you want all the reasons why Dex2Dam is bad. In truth, I don't particularly like it for the Rogue either but am OK with it as a unique class gated thing. I don't particularly think they need it either since in both games I run the rogue is leaving a trail a corpses with SA. But I get why the included it since a large plurality of enemies are immune to precision damage. Having seen a Rogue suffer through 3.5 Age of Worms where they couldn't sneak attack anything, I...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T21:45:50ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to Damagetheservantsllcleanituphttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#722018-09-04T21:37:33Z2018-09-04T21:37:33Z<p>Also, this occurred to me but just so we are all on the same page, universal dex2dam would still require a finesse weapon, yes? You're not running in there with a maul getting a Dex bonus to damage I'm assuming</p>Also, this occurred to me but just so we are all on the same page, universal dex2dam would still require a finesse weapon, yes? You're not running in there with a maul getting a Dex bonus to damage I'm assumingtheservantsllcleanitup2018-09-04T21:37:33ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to Damagetheservantsllcleanituphttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#712018-09-04T21:19:29Z2018-09-04T21:16:24Z<p>You make good points datalorerpg but I still don't see why universal Dex to damage would be an autoselect for most play styles? Your argument is predicated on the assumption that if dex2dam was available everyone would take it, and the game would be boring homogeneous mess, if I'm understanding correctly? </p>
<p>If so, then I would point out that you yourself brought up the fact that most weapons can't use Dex to hit as most weapons are not finesse weapons. If using dex2dam with a non finesse weapons is MAD, then doesn't that problem kind of solve itself?</p>
<p>Would it help if finesse weapons required using Dex to hit? Or would that hurt? Just trying to brainstorm here. I feel like trying to use a rapier as a strength weapon just wouldn't work anyway. Like I can brute force whap you as hard as I want with it, it will never be as effective as using it properly</p>You make good points datalorerpg but I still don't see why universal Dex to damage would be an autoselect for most play styles? Your argument is predicated on the assumption that if dex2dam was available everyone would take it, and the game would be boring homogeneous mess, if I'm understanding correctly?
If so, then I would point out that you yourself brought up the fact that most weapons can't use Dex to hit as most weapons are not finesse weapons. If using dex2dam with a non finesse...theservantsllcleanitup2018-09-04T21:16:24ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#702018-09-05T00:35:47Z2018-09-04T20:52:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>basic functions like weapon choice and effectiveness should not be one of those things in a game where you are trying to tell people to be diverse and play what you want.</blockquote><p>That assumes you can't be a good dex user and not be a rogue. This is flatly false. Its another hyperbolic statement that is flatly not supported by fact.
<p>As far as each class having one type, that is not borne out in what I have seen. Every class has multiple paths already included in its available feats and the devs have stated that each class will get a couple pages worth of additional feats on release (an who knows how many more in splat books). As of right now, there is more class variance in this game than MANY that I have played (including the market leader) and that will only get more impressive on release.</p>
<p>All users claiming they "can't do what they want" aren't judging the game that is presented to them but are instead judging the game against another that lives in their imagination or memories (whether that be PF1 or 5E or 4E or whatever). So its not that they can't do what they want in the context of this game. Its that they can't do what they did in some other game. The most telling element of this in your post was you comment on Paladin Smites. " Alryn, Paladins are a joke. That epic Smite move she could do in 5th just isn't there in PF2." Well, so what? Its a different game. There is different stuff there that comes from different places. Look at the game with clear eyes instead making these rather off base comparisons.</p>Quote:basic functions like weapon choice and effectiveness should not be one of those things in a game where you are trying to tell people to be diverse and play what you want.
That assumes you can't be a good dex user and not be a rogue. This is flatly false. Its another hyperbolic statement that is flatly not supported by fact. As far as each class having one type, that is not borne out in what I have seen. Every class has multiple paths already included in its available feats and the devs...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T20:52:30ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageIsaac Zephyrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#692018-09-07T19:57:33Z2018-09-04T20:38:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">CommanderCoyler wrote:</div><blockquote> The lack of SRD meant no 3rd party publishers could make their own splatbooks, though in response to this WotC put out <i>more splatbooks than they have for any other edition</i>. This meant everything stayed within the balance floor/celing WotC put out, but also meant the game's lifespan was only as long as WotC were willing to keep making books, which also ties into the first issue. </blockquote><p>Finally someone who gets it. 4e wasn't particularly bad, it just had reputation. 2 of my favorite characters of all time (possibly 3) that I ever made were 4e characters. I ran the Encounters program from the Neverwinter season to the Feywild, as well as 2 Lair Assaults (the first two) and it was a really good time save for some problem players.
<p>Those 2 characters I made though, my dual katar weilding rogue with Sly Flourish. I bring him back as an NPC in many a game I've run since, nicknamed "Vahn the Tornado Tihare". He would bound around and dealt damage based on Dex+Cha, it was silly but as a Striker he worked. Then Ser Amelia Lebangue, knight of Neverwinter and a sword and board fighter built around defending allies. I only grew tired with 4e when it started feeling like there were only really 4 classes with different flavours. Striker, Tank, Commander, 4th one I can't recall. Then again, I had to play 3-5+ games a week, running the same adventure multiple times a day. It wasn't a bad game, and it brought fresh ideas to the series like Wizards actually having HP!</p>
<p>Talking to 5th though and this supposed homogeniety, I really don't see it. Again, what a character can do to me means more than the numbers or anything. My paladin Alryn Maviir had essentially an anime-esque ultimate attack with all her resources at level 2. Divine Smite +Searing Smite + Heavy Weapon Master was a -5 attack roll that cost two spell slots but her greatsword would NUKE with 2d6(slashing)+2d8(holy)+1d6(fire)+10+(1.5Ă—Str). Wasn't really optimized but I built this awesome heavy weapon fighter who could put everything into a single attack. Compare my rogue Deik who dual weilded daggers for the sake of defensive duelist. She played by getting the most our of her bonus actions darting around the battlefield with tumbles and tossing knives. Deik cannot get the smiting, Alryn cannot get that mobility, they are still very different, and building Alryn as a Dex character would be viable. Not as damage heavy, you'd lose the +10 and 1.5 Str, plus he weapon would be weaker, but their diversity comes from what they're given, not their numbers.</p>
<p>The thing is, these characters were all fun. PF2, while I do like some aspects of it, with everything tied to what class you are it feels like every Rogue is one type of Rogue, every Paladin is one type of Paladin. I tried to recreate all four of these characters and only Ser Amelia even slightly resembled what she was capable of. Vahn as a rogue cannot exist properly because Katars are not Finesse, so he needs Str to hit with his Katars, which defeats the purpose of getting Dex to damage. He's still supposed to be a sly tactician so the new Rogue Intimidate structure kind of works for him to sneak attack, but being smart as he was doesn't do him any favors. He now needs Str, Dex, Wis, Cha minimum to support how he needs which doesn't work. Alryn, Paladins are a joke. That epic Smite move she could do in 5th just isn't there in PF2. They have no interesting abilities in the early levels and no more spells, so where is the diversity of choice? And Deik doesn't have any of those mobility options as a rogue at all, they just aren't there.</p>
<p>The choices PF2 provides are small adjustments to numbers in almost all of these cases, and the comparison to 4e comes from everything being an action card. Nothing wrong with it, but the big difference is 4e had cool action cards. 5e, every choice you do get to make tends to lock you on a path, but all classes have 3 generally cool different options that mean even 2 of the same class can be entirely different. That diversity isn't in PF2, it was barely in PF1. Starfinder has it, and I really like Starfinder.</p>
<p>In the system presented with how it is balanced, and with what each character needs to function due to the high DCs of actions and most of the difference coming from ability scores, giving finesse Dex to damage makes Dex-based characters up to par and not useless in the early levels, and makes negligible difference or compared to Str being a detriment in high levels. Giving it says "you can play this way if you want", rather than saying "if you want to use a Finesse weapon effectively you need to be a Rogue". I'm all for certain classes being the only ones able to do certain things, but basic functions like weapon choice and effectiveness should not be one of those things in a game where you are trying to tell people to be diverse and play what you want.</p>CommanderCoyler wrote:The lack of SRD meant no 3rd party publishers could make their own splatbooks, though in response to this WotC put out more splatbooks than they have for any other edition. This meant everything stayed within the balance floor/celing WotC put out, but also meant the game's lifespan was only as long as WotC were willing to keep making books, which also ties into the first issue.
Finally someone who gets it. 4e wasn't particularly bad, it just had reputation. 2 of my...Isaac Zephyr2018-09-04T20:38:14ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageCommanderCoylerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#682018-09-04T20:03:44Z2018-09-04T19:58:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Again, you leave my name out of the quotes, you really do not think I am a person.</blockquote><p>Lol, sorry man, but your posts are making less and less sense to me. They do not seem to me to be germane to the topic at hand and you are taking offense to me using quote tags instead of using this forum's arcane software (seriously, these forums are straight outta 1992).
<p>Reading how 4E did it, I can better see why that edition failed. PF2 is attractive to me since it is crunchy without getting into the weeds of that kind of finnicky nonsense. Looks like a board game to be honest.</p>
<p>Anywho, I also still have not seen a compelling reason why dex to damage is needed for all. Literally. No actual reason other than player envy ("I want it cuz I want it!" lol).</p>
<p>So, lets just agree to disagree. </blockquote><p>4e 'failed' because of mostly non-game reasons: Player perception of the game despite not having played it and not having a SRD.
</p>
Player perception meant that people were less likely to pick it up. I have very much run into this, For example: My current irl rp group, that I'm DMing for, were very resistant to playing it because of the reputation. They caved ~18 months ago and we have been playing it weekly since, it's gotten to the point where I want to take a break to think up new ideas for where I want the campaign to go in paragon tier but they don't want to.
<br />
The lack of SRD meant no 3rd party publishers could make their own splatbooks, though in response to this WotC put out <i>more splatbooks than they have for any other edition</i>. This meant everything stayed within the balance floor/celing WotC put out, but also meant the game's lifespan was only as long as WotC were willing to keep making books, which also ties into the first issue.</p>
<p>But anyway, this is about getting dex to damage. You know what, you win, I don't care any more. I'll play out the rest of the playtest and then not buy the books when they come out if this imbalance continues.</p>DataLoreRPG wrote:Quote:Again, you leave my name out of the quotes, you really do not think I am a person.
Lol, sorry man, but your posts are making less and less sense to me. They do not seem to me to be germane to the topic at hand and you are taking offense to me using quote tags instead of using this forum's arcane software (seriously, these forums are straight outta 1992). Reading how 4E did it, I can better see why that edition failed. PF2 is attractive to me since it is crunchy...CommanderCoyler2018-09-04T19:58:39ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#672018-09-05T00:35:10Z2018-09-04T19:41:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Again, you leave my name out of the quotes, you really do not think I am a person.</blockquote><p>Lol, sorry man, but your posts are making less and less sense to me. They do not seem to me to be germane to the topic at hand and you are taking offense to me using quote tags instead of using this forum's arcane software (seriously, these forums are straight outta 1992).
<p>Reading how 4E did it, I can better see why that edition failed. PF2 is attractive to me since it is crunchy without getting into the weeds of that kind of finnicky nonsense. Looks like a board game to be honest.</p>
<p>Anywho, I also still have not seen a compelling reason why dex to damage is needed for all. Literally. No actual reason other than player envy ("I want it cuz I want it!" lol).</p>
<p>So, lets just agree to disagree.</p>Quote:Again, you leave my name out of the quotes, you really do not think I am a person.
Lol, sorry man, but your posts are making less and less sense to me. They do not seem to me to be germane to the topic at hand and you are taking offense to me using quote tags instead of using this forum's arcane software (seriously, these forums are straight outta 1992). Reading how 4E did it, I can better see why that edition failed. PF2 is attractive to me since it is crunchy without getting into the...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T19:41:01ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#662018-09-04T19:47:09Z2018-09-04T19:30:36Z<p>theservantsllcleanitup:</p>
<p>That's a weapon dice issue not a stat issue. But lets break that down for the hellofit.</p>
<p>Agile weapons have the same die value whether they are finesse-able or not (1d6 or less). So, all dual wielders are in the same boat whether or not they use strength or dex or whatever. The difference comes with non-agile weapons.</p>
<p>Rapiers, one of the larger finesse weapons (theres a couple others), is d6 but it gets other coolness which allows you to disarm with dex. So, again, you are making a choice. Honestly, I just don't see this as a particularly unfair one. </p>
<p>Still, if you would like a d8 one hander that is finesseable, maybe ask them to replace versatile on the katana and add finesse or something? Or ask them to make the Elven curve blade one handed while losing the forceful trait? Such a weapon should probably be uncommon or possibly even exotic.</p>
<p>Ultimately, this weapon die thing is an issue of finesseable, one-handed, non-agile weapons (not all weapons). Its not necessarily an issue either. Maybe thats just the design intent to make dex feel different than strength. •shrug•</p>theservantsllcleanitup:
That's a weapon dice issue not a stat issue. But lets break that down for the hellofit.
Agile weapons have the same die value whether they are finesse-able or not (1d6 or less). So, all dual wielders are in the same boat whether or not they use strength or dex or whatever. The difference comes with non-agile weapons.
Rapiers, one of the larger finesse weapons (theres a couple others), is d6 but it gets other coolness which allows you to disarm with dex. So, again,...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T19:30:36ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageCommanderCoylerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#652018-09-04T19:19:05Z2018-09-04T19:17:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>So yea, 'half' was an exaggeration, but a 14-29% damage loss just because you want to use a different stat is still huge</blockquote><p>Naw, not really. Its different. Different is good. If you can't live with melee classes having DPR within 20% of eachother...man, dunno what to tell you. How samey do you want this game? Hell, when you factor in magical weapon that add in extra die, the difference gets even smaller.
<p>You don't do as much damage but you get other benefits. If you just care about damage, then you focus on strength. Look at the monk stances, for example, they are balanced in exactly this way but I doubt most players will be going Dragon Stance because there is more to this game than DPR.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>This is why I'm saying things need to be different elsewhere (e.g. class mechanics, feats and traits for weapons). Making a set of weapons weaker than others is varitey, yes, but not good varitey. In practice, finesse weapons being weaker just means that everyone's gonna go for the non-finesse weapons.</blockquote><p>Weaker is a poor adjective to use. How weak or powerful something is depends on its usefulness in game. Again, dex gives you more than damage. I am not going to list it again but its alot. Strength pretty much just gives you damage. Hell, devs even stated some combat manuevers can use DEX with finesse weapons!
<p>Also, the game is already "different elsewhere" (in every way you liste). Making the changes you propose would objectively make character more the same. That, IMO, sucks. </blockquote><p>Again, you leave my name out of the quotes, you really do not think I am a person.
</p>
Also again, you misunderstand what I'm suggesting. I am <b>not</b> suggesting the same as 5e, where everything is the same. I am suggesting something like 4e, where the weapon stats are similar but <i>how</i> you weild the weapons is different.</p>
<p>Take the stat blocks for Rapier and Longsword in 4e:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
Notice how they are both very similar? Then take feats like these:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
Notice how they both have different prerequisites, and <i>different effects</i>. This shows how they're used differently. A longsword is used for opportunty attacks, it is still a fast weapon but it is powerful too, allowing you to get the extra effects (and potentially extra damage) of your class's at-will powers on OAs. A Rapier is small and very precise, able to pick out the weak points in armour to effectively ignore it.</p>DataLoreRPG wrote:Quote:So yea, 'half' was an exaggeration, but a 14-29% damage loss just because you want to use a different stat is still huge
Naw, not really. Its different. Different is good. If you can't live with melee classes having DPR within 20% of eachother...man, dunno what to tell you. How samey do you want this game? Hell, when you factor in magical weapon that add in extra die, the difference gets even smaller. You don't do as much damage but you get other benefits. If you just...CommanderCoyler2018-09-04T19:17:15ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to Damagetheservantsllcleanituphttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#642018-09-07T19:54:06Z2018-09-04T19:00:27Z<p>Factoring in magical weapons makes the gap bigger if finesse weapons have smaller dice...</p>Factoring in magical weapons makes the gap bigger if finesse weapons have smaller dice...theservantsllcleanitup2018-09-04T19:00:27ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#632018-09-04T18:52:44Z2018-09-04T18:51:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>So yea, 'half' was an exaggeration, but a 14-29% damage loss just because you want to use a different stat is still huge</blockquote><p>Naw, not really. Its different. Different is good. If you can't live with melee classes having DPR within 20% of eachother...man, dunno what to tell you. How samey do you want this game? Hell, when you factor in magical weapon that add in extra die, the difference gets even smaller.
<p>You don't do as much damage but you get other benefits. If you just care about damage, then you focus on strength. Look at the monk stances, for example, they are balanced in exactly this way but I doubt most players will be going Dragon Stance because there is more to this game than DPR.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>This is why I'm saying things need to be different elsewhere (e.g. class mechanics, feats and traits for weapons). Making a set of weapons weaker than others is varitey, yes, but not good varitey. In practice, finesse weapons being weaker just means that everyone's gonna go for the non-finesse weapons.</blockquote><p>Weaker is a poor adjective to use. How weak or powerful something is depends on its usefulness in game. Again, dex gives you more than damage. I am not going to list it again but its alot. Strength pretty much just gives you damage. Hell, devs even stated some combat manuevers can use DEX with finesse weapons!
<p>Also, the game is already "different elsewhere" (in every way you liste). Making the changes you propose would objectively make character more the same. That, IMO, sucks.</p>Quote:So yea, 'half' was an exaggeration, but a 14-29% damage loss just because you want to use a different stat is still huge
Naw, not really. Its different. Different is good. If you can't live with melee classes having DPR within 20% of eachother...man, dunno what to tell you. How samey do you want this game? Hell, when you factor in magical weapon that add in extra die, the difference gets even smaller. You don't do as much damage but you get other benefits. If you just care about...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T18:51:29ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamagePossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#622018-09-04T18:41:15Z2018-09-04T18:41:15Z<p>Mostly my issue with dex-to-damage is that I dislike the idea that strength applies nothing to damage. Being able to swing harder, or thrust more forcefully should result in more damage no matter where you are aiming.</p>
<p>I would rather give an option to let finesse weapon users do bonus damage while applying dex-to-hit and adding str-to-damage than have a replacement effect in the game which makes a stat almost useless. With how stat ups work these days having 14 strength at level 5 is not a huge ask.</p>
<p>Heck "Dex and Strength" to damage is more aesthetically pleasing to me than "Dex to Damage" even though the former is much much stronger.</p>Mostly my issue with dex-to-damage is that I dislike the idea that strength applies nothing to damage. Being able to swing harder, or thrust more forcefully should result in more damage no matter where you are aiming.
I would rather give an option to let finesse weapon users do bonus damage while applying dex-to-hit and adding str-to-damage than have a replacement effect in the game which makes a stat almost useless. With how stat ups work these days having 14 strength at level 5 is not a...PossibleCabbage2018-09-04T18:41:15ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to Damagetheservantsllcleanituphttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#612018-09-04T18:37:15Z2018-09-04T18:37:15Z<p>What confuses me about this argument is that if everyone agrees that the damage bonus from your ability modifier, be it strength or dexterity, is not that meaningful for 80% of the game's progression, then what is even the debate? Why does it matter either way?</p>
<p>It seems evident that, even with +Dex to damage, strength-based builds will outdamage Dex based builds as the game progresses simply due to the outsized influence of die size. If that's the case, any player looking to min max their damage will this NOT be inclined to roll a Dex based melee character, even if there is an appreciable advantage at low levels. No min maxer wants to slowly become less effective as they level up.</p>
<p>So, on the one side, giving this feature to everyone won't bring Dex martials up to the level of str martials, but will merely allow them to compete in the early levels.</p>
<p>On the other, the paradigm of "str is the damage stat, end of story" won't be affected, so why change it anyway.</p>
<p>In conclusion I have no idea what I'm talking about and no strong opinion either way. Thanks for your time.</p>What confuses me about this argument is that if everyone agrees that the damage bonus from your ability modifier, be it strength or dexterity, is not that meaningful for 80% of the game's progression, then what is even the debate? Why does it matter either way?
It seems evident that, even with +Dex to damage, strength-based builds will outdamage Dex based builds as the game progresses simply due to the outsized influence of die size. If that's the case, any player looking to min max their...theservantsllcleanitup2018-09-04T18:37:15ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageCommanderCoylerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#602018-09-07T19:53:03Z2018-09-04T18:23:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote> 2. Variety of characters are actually not really a variety when you homogenize them. They are the same mechanically if all stats function increasingly the same way and armor does the same thing regardless of how light or heavy it is. You can call it different but we both know you are just advocating that things function more similarly.</blockquote><p><b>This is why I'm saying things need to be different <i>elsewhere</i></b> (e.g. class mechanics, feats and <i>traits</i> for weapons). Making a set of weapons weaker than others is varitey, yes, but not <i>good</i> varitey. In practice, finesse weapons being weaker just means that everyone's gonna go for the non-finesse weapons.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">DataLoreRPG wrote:</div><blockquote>q3. A dex fighter loses, what, a couple points of damage since he can still have a decent strength score (and likely would want some strength for composite bows). "Half his expected damage"..what complete nonsense.</blockquote><p>Maybe 'half' was hyperbole, but let's maths this out:
</p>
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
So yea, 'half' <i>was</i> an exaggeration, but a 14-29% damage loss just because you want to use a different stat is still <b>huge</b></p>DataLoreRPG wrote:2. Variety of characters are actually not really a variety when you homogenize them. They are the same mechanically if all stats function increasingly the same way and armor does the same thing regardless of how light or heavy it is. You can call it different but we both know you are just advocating that things function more similarly.
This is why I'm saying things need to be different elsewhere (e.g. class mechanics, feats and traits for weapons). Making a set of weapons...CommanderCoyler2018-09-04T18:23:12ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamageDataLoreRPGhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#592018-09-05T00:34:19Z2018-09-04T16:54:46Z<p>CommanderCoyler:</p>
<p>So you see PF2's system and assume that limiting Dex to Damage is "tradition for tradition's sake" and want to make a "variety of characters." Also, a fighter will apparently lose "half his expected damage" with certain weapons. </p>
<p>Well, thats a load of phooey. All of it. </p>
<p>1. The rarity of dex to damage is a choice. While you may not agree with it, you can't read Paizo's mind and do not know if it was simply a tradititionalist call. Speaking as a prospective player who LIKES MOST OF THE CHANGES THEY HAVE MADE, I think they made the right move here. Again, I am no traditionalist but I can appreciate good design when I see it.</p>
<p>2. Variety of characters are actually not really a variety when you homogenize them. They are the same mechanically if all stats function increasingly the same way and armor does the same thing regardless of how light or heavy it is. You can call it different but we both know you are just advocating that things function more similarly. </p>
<p>3. A dex fighter loses, what, a couple points of damage since he can still have a decent strength score (and likely would want some strength for composite bows). "Half his expected damage"..what complete nonsense.</p>
<p>Ya, I was done. What can I say, I can't help but feed the trolls.</p>CommanderCoyler:
So you see PF2's system and assume that limiting Dex to Damage is "tradition for tradition's sake" and want to make a "variety of characters." Also, a fighter will apparently lose "half his expected damage" with certain weapons.
Well, thats a load of phooey. All of it.
1. The rarity of dex to damage is a choice. While you may not agree with it, you can't read Paizo's mind and do not know if it was simply a tradititionalist call. Speaking as a prospective player who LIKES...DataLoreRPG2018-09-04T16:54:46ZRe: Forums: Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells: Access to +Dex to DamagePossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vcdi&page=2?Access-to-Dex-to-Damage#582018-09-04T16:54:02Z2018-09-04T16:54:02Z<p>I would rather see finesse weapons get a better damage die (or things like deadly) than have dex-to-damage become commonplace, honestly.</p>I would rather see finesse weapons get a better damage die (or things like deadly) than have dex-to-damage become commonplace, honestly.PossibleCabbage2018-09-04T16:54:02Z