For 3rd Ed/PF1, currently, I houserule it to be a bit like SWSE, so you start with a number of trained skills (never less that 4) from your Class list, and a number of trained skills = to you Int modifier from any list. So a a Rogue with a 16 Int would have 11 trained skills (8 from the Rogue list, and 3 from any).
Interesting idea. SWSE was my favorite D20 system game. One of my few complaints about the skills was that you weren't allowed to be trained in non-class skills at all, which was odd given how much freedom the system gave you in building a unique character in all other respects. I just houseruled that people could take whatever skills they wanted, but your solution is also pretty elegant, since it allows for taking non-class skills but makes taking class skills slightly easier. I assume that skills gained from Skill Training would also be unrestricted?
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Vic Ferrari wrote:For 3rd Ed/PF1, currently, I houserule it to be a bit like SWSE, so you start with a number of trained skills (never less that 4) from your Class list, and a number of trained skills = to you Int modifier from any list. So a a Rogue with a 16 Int would have 11 trained skills (8 from the Rogue list, and 3 from any).Interesting idea. SWSE was my favorite D20 system game. One of my few complaints about the skills was that you weren't allowed to be trained in non-class skills at all, which was odd given how much freedom the system gave you in building a unique character in all other respects. I just houseruled that people could take whatever skills they wanted, but your solution is also pretty elegant, since it allows for taking non-class skills but makes taking class skills slightly easier. I assume that skills gained from Skill Training would also be unrestricted?
Thanks, yeah, I thought it was also a good way to leverage Int, so as not to be a dump-stat. If you want your barbarian to be trained in a very un-"barbaric" skill, bump that Int to 12.
As for SWSE, also one of my favourite d20 systems, it is close to a class-less game, so why the restriction on skills (Jedi are hosed). Skill training is of course unrestricted.
The only problems I find with SWSE is the +Heroic level, makes the maths wonky at high levels, and Skill Focus in Use the Force (total feat-tax). I do not really dig the +Level deal in PF2, seems a thing of the past, that failed, so it made me go back and look at SWSE, and my current houserules for that, are:
Heroic Level is not added to anything except Damage (+1/2), Force Points (+1/2), and Threshold (+1/2).
Cap at 20, for heroes.
The Noble and Scoundrel have Starting Hit Points: 24 + Constitution modifier.
Hit Points/Level: 1d8 + Constitution modifier.
Full Attack action is omitted. Attacking is a Standard action, regardless of how many attacks you make (Double Attack, etc).
d20 + Strength or Dexterity modifier + size modifier
Size Modifier: Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +3, Colossal +4.
10 + Fort + 1/2 level
Cap at 30.
When not wearing armour, you may add your class bonus to Reflex.
10 + Dexterity modifier + armour or class bonus + natural armour bonus
Class Bonus: Jedi +1, Noble +1, Scoundrel +2, Scout +2, Soldier +1
Prestige Class Bonus: Ace Pilot +4, Bounty Hunter +4, Crime Lord +2, Elite Trooper +2, Force Adept +2, Force Disciple +3, Gunslinger +4, Jedi Knight +2, Jedi Master +3, Officer +2
10 + Constitution modifier + class bonus + equipment bonus
Class Bonus: Jedi +1, Scout +1, Soldier +2
Prestige Class Bonus: Ace Pilot +2, Bounty Hunter +2, Elite Trooper +4, Force Adept +2, Force Disciple +3, Jedi Knight +2, Jedi Master +3
10 + Wisdom modifier + class bonus
Class Bonus: Jedi +1, Noble +2, Scoundrel +1
Prestige Class Bonus: Crime Lord +4, Force Adept +4, Force Disciple +6, Gunslinger +2, Jedi Knight +2, Jedi Master +3, Officer +4
d20 + Strength or Dexterity modifier + class bonus (with proficient weapons)
Class Bonus: Jedi +2, Noble +1, Scoundrel +1, Scout +1, Soldier +2
Prestige Class Bonus: Ace Pilot +2, Bounty Hunter +4, Crime Lord +2, Elite Trooper +4, Force Adept +2, Force Disciple +3, Gunslinger +4 (ranged only), Jedi Knight +3, Jedi Master +4, Officer +3
d20 + Ability Score modifier + 5 (Trained) + miscellaneous
Athletics. Climb, Jump, and Swim are rolled into the Athletics skill.
Initiative. Is not a skill, it is a Dexterity check.
Use the Force. For every prosthetic limb you have, you take a -1 penalty to Use the Force checks. Your Constitution modifier can reduce the penalty. For example, Darth Vader has 4 prosthetic limbs, so his Use the Force Checks take a -4 penalty, but as he has a Constitution of 17 (+3), the penalty is reduced by 3, to -1.
Are gained at character levels: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19.
Skill Focus. Is not available for the Use the Force skill.
Weapon Finesse. Is not a Feat, it is an inherent quality of light melee weapons, lightsabres, and unarmed attacks.
All DCs are reduced by 10, to a minimum of 5.
Armour bonuses are reduced:
Combat Jumpsuit: +1, Max Dex +3
Flight suit, armoured: +2, Max Dex +2
Stormtrooper armour: +2, Max Dex +3
Ceremonial armour: +3, Max Dex +2
Corellion power suit: +3, Max Dex +3
Battle armour: +4, Max Dex +2
Armoured spacesuit: +5, Max Dex +1
Battle armour, heavy: +6, Max Dex +1
I wasn't expecting to get SWSE tips in this thread, but I'll take 'em! :)
Right on, if they give at least one other person as much fun with SWSE as me and mine have had, that is fantastic.
Excuse the 5th Ed type formatting and lack of bolded headers, but here is what the almighty Darth (and a Stormtrooper for comparison/contrast) looks like with the adjustments I have implemented (a few feats missing).
Medium Human, Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5/Ace Pilot 2/Sith Apprentice 2/Sith Lord 3
Ref 19, Fort 18, Will 15; Block, Deflect
Hit Points 181; Threshold 37
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
16 (+3) 16 (+3) 17 (+3) 14 (+2) 14 (+2) 15 (+2)
Skills Athletics +8, Mechanics +7, Perception +7, Pilot +8, Use the Force +6
Immune fear effects, atmospheric and inhaled poison hazards
Weakness life support
Senses low-light vision; passive Perception 17
Languages Basic, Binary, Huttese
Destiny 3; Force 8, Strong in the Force; Dark Side 14
Force Powers Known (Use the Force +6); farseeing, Force disarm, Force grip, Force slam, move object, negate energy, rebuke, surge
Force Secrets Distant Power, Multitarget Power
Force Techniques Force Point Recovery, Improved Move Light Object, Improved Sense Force
Lightsabre. Melee: +9 (2d8 + 17), Double Attack, Rapid Strike, Severing Strike
Ranged Weapon. Ranged: +7
Talents Armoured Defence, Block, Dark Side Adept, Deflect, Djem So, Force Pilot, Improved Armoured Defence, Redirect Shot, Severing Strike, Vehicular Evasion, Weapon Specialisation (lightsabers)
Feats Armour Proficiency (light), Double Attack (lightsabres), Force Sensitivity*, Force Training (3), Rapid Strike, Strong in the Force, Vehicular Combat, Weapon Focus (lightsabres), Weapon proficiency (lightsabers, simple weapons)*
Equipment custom armour (treat as armoured flight suit with helmet package; modified, +4 armour bonus), lightsabre (self-built, red), cybernetic prosthetics (4, both arms and legs), Sith robes, utility belt with medpac
Medium Human, Nonheroic 4
Ref 12, Fort 12, Will 10
Hit Points 10 (4d4); Threshold 12
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
12 (+1) 11 (+0) 11 (+0) 10 (+0) 10 (+0) 10 (+0)
Skills Endurance +5, Perception +5
Senses low-light vision; passive Perception 15
Dark Side 1
Unarmed. Melee: +2 (1d4 + 1)
Blaster Rifle. Ranged: +2 (3d8)
Frag Grenade. Ranged: +1 (4d6, 2-square burst)
Feats Armour Proficiency (light), Coordinated Attack, Weapon Focus (blaster rifles), Weapon Proficiency (pistols, rifles, simple weapons)
Equipment stormtrooper armour, blaster rifle, frag grenade, utility belt with medpac
Magic users having no more skills than martial characters is one of the few ways to keep martial characters relevant in non-combat activities. Casters having more is deeply annoying to me personally, and not at all fun for martial players.
In terms of realism, both Alchemists and Wizards spend a fair amount of their time and energy studying magic and alchemy, respectively. It thus makes a fair amount of sense that they'd have no more skills than even less intelligent people who need to invest less time in one focused area. Advanced mathematicians are not known for having vastly more different skills than Special Forces soldiers (who admittedly tend to be fairly bright), y'know?
Huge difference between special forces soldiers and regular enlisted. Special forces would be an prestige class, now called archetype I think. And that mathematician would have a lot more training in various fields of academia. All of those skills are grouped into broad categories by the PF2 skill section and even then they would know a lot more than the average Joe fighter since Medicine would relate to magical theory, especially Necromancy in this edition. Religion, Occult & Arcana too. Also since most wizards are not highly trusted they may have to gain their knowledge surreptitiously so Deception, Stealth and Thievery would be highly prized along with Intimidation, especially with the nerfs to usefulness of spells in PF2 it stands to reason that wizards and other casters would invest heavily. Lastly, the smarter you are the more likely you are to have a broad range of skills as you pick up things more quickly than others so the only reason to nerf skills for casters is the reason in general which is caster envy. Its so sad that PF2 has erroneously decided that this is the best avenue for their game. I don't see it ending well if they continue down this path.