How does a Rogue improve his weapon skill?


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Silver Crusade

How does a Rogue improved his weapon skill from Trained to expert amster and legendary


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Mostly you don't. Weapon/armor prof levels are pretty much hard-wired into the classes. But if you take the Fighter Dedication multiclass feat you can eventually (level 12) take Weapon Expert to get expert prof with all simple and martial weapons in a particular weapon group.

Silver Crusade

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Another design flaw found in the New game system. All classes should be able to increase their weapon skill in a single weapon by spending a general feat. There is no reason for this not to be able too be done.

Scarab Sages

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Rogues eventually get Expert proficiency with weapons of their starting proficiency at 13th level (Weapon Tricks). That's about it.

Liberty's Edge

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Lou Diamond wrote:
Another design flaw found in the New game system. All classes should be able to increase their weapon skill in a single weapon by spending a general feat. There is no reason for this not to be able too be done.

This bolded part isn't actually true. In many ways, Weapon Proficiency beyond Trained is the equivalent of BAB in this edition, and not allowing it to simply rise via Feats is probably an extremely good idea from a Class Design and Game Balance perspective.


Its also limiting good at combat things to classes that are good at combat. In effect its the weapon styles from 5E but you get a bonus to hit instead. Indirectly makes the warrior types better at triggering crits as well although.

A Rogue from the look of it can also sneak attack more than once per round, we had one last night who could sneak attack twice and with flanking, agile etc more or less got +3 shaved off the -5 penalty for a second attack.

Rogues maybe more about using more attacks and situational accuracy while warrior types are more brute damage up front.

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lou Diamond wrote:
Another design flaw found in the New game system. All classes should be able to increase their weapon skill in a single weapon by spending a general feat. There is no reason for this not to be able too be done.
This bolded part isn't actually true. In many ways, Weapon Proficiency beyond Trained is the equivalent of BAB in this edition, and not allowing it to simply rise via Feats is probably an extremely good idea from a Class Design and Game Balance perspective.

I actually would have personally preferred that Expert proficiency gave you a simple +1 attack bonus, and higher proficiencies allowed you to add or change weapon properties on your weapons.

Mostly, I'm just frustrated that there isn't a way to do this. It would be so much fun! What if you could craft a Deadly Falchion, or a Reach Greatsword, or a Forceful Handaxe? Or wield them in such a way that you could add change them around? This would really open up weapon options and give players a chance to really play with the whole property system, and it's so criminally underutilized! XD


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Davor wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lou Diamond wrote:
Another design flaw found in the New game system. All classes should be able to increase their weapon skill in a single weapon by spending a general feat. There is no reason for this not to be able too be done.
This bolded part isn't actually true. In many ways, Weapon Proficiency beyond Trained is the equivalent of BAB in this edition, and not allowing it to simply rise via Feats is probably an extremely good idea from a Class Design and Game Balance perspective.

I actually would have personally preferred that Expert proficiency gave you a simple +1 attack bonus, and higher proficiencies allowed you to add or change weapon properties on your weapons.

Mostly, I'm just frustrated that there isn't a way to do this. It would be so much fun! What if you could craft a Deadly Falchion, or a Reach Greatsword, or a Forceful Handaxe? Or wield them in such a way that you could add change them around? This would really open up weapon options and give players a chance to really play with the whole property system, and it's so criminally underutilized! XD

Its because you would end up with 1 weapon that is just better than everything else. An agile. finesse great sword for example.

Scarab Sages

Zardnaar wrote:


Its because you would end up with 1 weapon that is just better than everything else. An agile. finesse great sword for example.

Then let it happen. Or tie it to limited proficiency bonuses. I was just really excited about the revamping of weapon properties, and it's so... MEH. For two-handers, you either want a d12 or Reach, for one-handers you either want a big versatile die, finesse and/or agile, and... that's about it. There isn't nearly enough done with it, and I want more!


Davor wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


Its because you would end up with 1 weapon that is just better than everything else. An agile. finesse great sword for example.
Then let it happen. Or tie it to limited proficiency bonuses. I was just really excited about the revamping of weapon properties, and it's so... MEH. For two-handers, you either want a d12 or Reach, for one-handers you either want a big versatile die, finesse and/or agile, and... that's about it. There isn't nearly enough done with it, and I want more!

You do know magic weapons in PF2 deal extra damage dice? A +2 weapon is +2 to hit and +2d8 or 2d12.

A finesse greatsword in the hands of a rogue would be great. An agile one in the hands of a fighter who wants to make multiple attacks would also be great. +3 great sword agile two attacks each hit deals 4d12 damage + everything else. And you could sneak attack with said great sword and finesse it In 5E there is a reason a 1d10+ finesse weapon doesn't exist bet you can get for a two handed weapon is a versatile spear or 1 subclass that can use longswords finessed. It makes the classes/weapons a bit different.

Everyone would want d12 weapons they obsolete everything else. There is no point having weapon traits.

Scarab Sages

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Zardnaar wrote:


Everyone would want d12 weapons they obsolete everything else. There is no point having weapon traits.

I can't come up with a good reason not to get a reach weapon and multi-class fighter on every martial character. I would like to politely disagree with your assessment. Upgrading reach weapons with things like finesse or agile would be fun, as would momentum. Deadly could also be sweet, and I would love to see something like a fatal gnome flickmace.

You could easily limit properties based on die size, etc. if it were an actual issue. I just wanted a ROBUST system, and what we have is... again, meh.


Davor wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


Everyone would want d12 weapons they obsolete everything else. There is no point having weapon traits.

I can't come up with a good reason not to get a reach weapon and multi-class fighter on every martial character. I would like to politely disagree with your assessment. Upgrading reach weapons with things like finesse or agile would be fun, as would momentum. Deadly could also be sweet, and I would love to see something like a fatal gnome flickmace.

You could easily limit properties based on die size, etc. if it were an actual issue. I just wanted a ROBUST system, and what we have is... again, meh.

Maybe on certain classes or archetypes but you would not want PCs to have open season access to putting whatever they liked on whatever they liked.

Silver Crusade

For 1 you cannot have a great sword with agile or finesse. As a great sword cannot use either agile or finesse and why would someone want to use dex to dam with a 2 handed weapon of any type they are Strength to damage weapons. Increasing a weapon that a Rogue is trained with to expert or master would be nice. increasing by a +1 hit for expert, +2 for master and +3 for legendary would be great. And in the same vein having expert master and legendary Sneak attack that bumps the sneak attack damage by 1d6 per advance.

Scarab Sages

Lou Diamond wrote:
For 1 you cannot have a great sword with agile or finesse. As a great sword cannot use either agile or finesse and why would someone want to use dex to dam with a 2 handed weapon of any type they are Strength to damage weapons. Increasing a weapon that a Rogue is trained with to expert or master would be nice. increasing by a +1 hit for expert, +2 for master and +3 for legendary would be great. And in the same vein having expert master and legendary Sneak attack that bumps the sneak attack damage by 1d6 per advance.

We were specifically talking about allowing players the ability to add or change the properties on weapons, which is how it came up.

As for the whole extra Sneak Attack damage thing... BOOOOORING.


Sneak attack puts you at +/- 2 average damage from just picking up a greatsword and ignoring sneak attack entirely. Rogue in combat is like a fighter who gets their abilities 4 levels late and has a bunch of skills to compensate. Their chief advantage is being able to leverage the agile weapon property on effective 2 handed weapon dice, but they still need to multiclass out in order to grab agile grace, and that's not happening till level 20.

They should be master archers though. After multiclassing out for the multishot feats that is.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but that seems to be the general idea. Long story short, sneak attack isn't something worth considering when looking at melee weapon choices.

All that said, and on the topic of adding traits to existing weapons. Agile nunchucks would be pretty top end for Monks. Reach dwarven waraxe would probably be the top all arounder with reach greatclub being a good second.

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