If you lack both the Ride feat and an animal companion mount, you cannot travel on a mount overland for more than 10 minutes


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The mess that is exploration tactics (and social tactics) thickens. According to page 329 of the playtest rulebook:

Quote:

To determine which tactic applies, use the following guidelines. A tactic like wandering or sneaking, which doesn’t cause fatigue, consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as sneaking using Sneak 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as searching’s alternation of Stride and Seek).

A fatiguing tactic, such as hustling, causes fatigue after 10 minutes. A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20 Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many actions. Someone who’s Concentrating on a Spell but not moving still gets fatigued.

If you lack both the Ride feat and an animal companion mount, you must Handle an Animal (at an unlisted DC) and then Command an Animal in order to get a mount to move. That takes two actions each round, making it a fatiguing tactic. You will be fatigued after 10 minutes.

As per page 322:

Quote:
If you’re fatigued in exploration mode, you can’t choose any tactic other than wandering.

The moment someone with neither the Ride feat nor an animal companion mount spends 10 minutes riding a mount, they immediately become fatigued, and they lose the stamina with which to continue their riding.

How are entire parties supposed to travel upon, say, horses or camels?


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Eat them. Give you the energy to carry on. An army marches on its stomach, as Napoleon said. In this case, the stomach is full of horse.

Don't eat camel. It's not very nice. It has a rough lumpy texture rather like liver.

Alternatively, you can stop every 9 minutes, get off the horse, Wander for a moment and remount.

I expect the same problem arises with driving a cart, except that there's no analogue of the Ride feat so it's impossible to drive for more that 10 minutes unless you trained the horse/ox yourself (see the Bonded Animal feat). And as you can have only one AC or Bonded Animal, heaven help you if the cart is drawn by two oxen.


Does Bonded Animal's Command an Animal benefit not apply only during combat?


If you have neither Ride, nor a Companion; 'mounted wandering' is indeed a fatiguing tactic.
However, if you have Ride, 'mounted wandering' becomes nonfatiguing (because you're spending 1 Command An Animal action to get 1 action in return; and you don't have to Handle a Friendly mount if you have Ride).
If you have a Companion, both "mounted wandering" and "mounted hustling" become nonfatiguing for you (because you're spending 1 Command An Animal action to recieve 2 actions in return, and Minions don't need to be Handled either); "Hustling" is still fatiguing for the mount however (since it is spending 2 actions per round).


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I apologize; I seem to have accidentally posted this thread twice across different subforums.

Another funny thing here is:

Quote:
Sometimes the group might stop a fatiguing tactic before getting fatigued, then resume the fatiguing tactic. You can reset the 10-minute timer for fatigue’s onset if the group spent a reasonable amount of time on less strenuous activities. As a rule of thumb, the characters should spend about as much time on non-fatiguing tactics as they did on the fatiguing tactic for the timer to reset.

However, suppose you do hit 10 minutes of untrained riding, and you become fatigued. For how long must you rest?

Quote:
You recover from fatigue with a full night’s rest (8 hours).

8 hours. Because we all know that after some strenuous physical activity (other than life-or-death combat, mysteriously), it takes a full eight hours to recover from the exertion.


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Yeah I don't think that fatigue rule is gonna do very well in the polls. You should be able to recover after 10 minutes of just relaxing.

But the biggest issue here is that you indeed get tired from riding a horse...


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ChibiNyan wrote:

Yeah I don't think that fatigue rule is gonna do very well in the polls. You should be able to recover after 10 minutes of just relaxing.

But the biggest issue here is that you indeed get tired from riding a horse...

You don't get cripplingly exhausted after riding a horse for 10 minutes. I'm a genuinely terrible rider and I'm fine after an hour-long trail ride.


I'm not sure.

Let's look at the Defending tactic: you move half your travel speed and Raise your shield. I guess you Stride for 1 round while raising your shield, then you rest for 1 round while still raising your shield, then you Stride for 1 round while raising your shield... Hence the "half speed": you spend half your round not Striding. Still, you're spend half your time doing two action and your not fatigued.

Hence, when riding you could Handle animal + Control animal for 1 round, moving at the mount speed, then rest 1 round, then Handle animal + Control animal for 1 round, etc, moving at half the mount travel speed.

A player could argue he has still 1 action every other round, so he should be able engage in another activity. Except he's not actually rolling the Handle animal check - and fumbling half of the time. So as a simplification, he moves at the mount half speed and do nothing else and he isn't required to check Handle animal.

Note: a pony has a speed of 35 feet, a horse has a speed of 40 feet. So moving at half speed, it's slower than just wandering. Given how punishing the exploration are rule and given how akward it is to mount a horse (seriously, Handle animal every 6 second? Is it a horse or a stubborn mule?), it seems balanced.


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If traveling on a horse untrained is slower than just walking, then what is the point?


What's the point of other exploration tactic?

Searching for danger makes you walk at half speed while not preventing any ambush.

I'm not saying my riding suggestion is useful, i'm saying it's on par with everything.


I proposed a way to fix this.

Ride fix


Colette Brunel wrote:
If traveling on a horse untrained is slower than just walking, then what is the point?

Its not, but only because horses have a 40' move and can use two actions to gallop at +10 speed every round, for a total of 100' (25% higher than the average human could make on a triple-move). It is possible to build an elf that walks faster than a horse can run, however.

Of course, this also means that horses gallop cross-country at 11mph (actual horse average is 30mph), while humans sprint at 8.5mph (actual average is closer to 15mph), so giving horses with riders 3 actions of running (assuming 140', that's just under 16mph) would put them closer to the actual ratio of horse-speed to human speed, while simultaneously also meaning that your standard domesticated horse is capable of running at the same speed as a 'monster' horse (because they'd have the same number of actions).


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Not to mention if you want to make your horse gallop you have to spend 3 actions per turn.

And get exausted in 2 mins.

:D


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I suggest that you need to use handle an animal action only when you want to order different action than one before.

Also if you handle an animal for a week, you should only make one handle an animal action per day as animal is used to you giving out orders.

Grand Lodge

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Mudfoot wrote:


Don't eat camel. It's not very nice. It has a rough lumpy texture rather like liver.

I've actually eaten camel while in Jordan; it's quite like beef, actually.

Scarab Sages

Exploration mode is totally different from Encounter mode.

If you look at the math actually and try to convert the travel speed in Exploration mode into Encounter mode you will find that the PC make only one move per round. Not three.

I'm 100% sure that RAI you can travel on horse just fine without the feet. You are not fighting, the horse are not terrified to hell, it's fairly easy. Your horse is slowly walking, not running you know. You could probably run but THAT would end up tiring (though 10 minutes seems a bit rude)

Even IRL a kid could do it with little trouble as long as the horse is just walking (I did it a whole day without issue).
But put the same kid on a horse that is running away from monster trying to kill it ? Well, your kid would probably beat the dust really quick.


nogoodscallywag wrote:
I've actually eaten camel while in Jordan; it's quite like beef, actually.

Gamey beef is close.


wizzardman wrote:


Of course, this also means that horses gallop cross-country at 11mph (actual horse average is 30mph), while humans sprint at 8.5mph (actual average is closer to 15mph), so giving horses with riders 3 actions of running (assuming 140', that's just under 16mph) would put them closer to the actual ratio of horse-speed to human speed, while simultaneously also meaning that your standard domesticated horse is capable of running at the same speed as a 'monster' horse (because they'd have the same number of actions).

It takes the well trained Horse and rider about 15 hours to travel 100 miles at hard pace over basic dirt roads, and that is assuming breaks and stops.

The well trained runner does the same distance in about 18 hours, assuming breaks but no stops.

These are real and accurate times from the Western States Run and the Tevis cup, the two endurance runs held in the foothills of Northern California. In both cases these are well trained, well practiced individuals who do this sort of thing constantly.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There is a table in the exploration section that says how many miles you travel in a day based on your speed.

Specific trumps general: When travelling overland use the table.


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That table is in the Exploration mode chapter that specifically tells you how to adjust your travel speeds when using that table.
Per Guidelines, it should be tiring and quarter Speed for non Ride feat/Companion guys, but it makes very limited in Story sense for it to be that bad and it's unintuitive that your Action to tell the horse to move would halve the Speed of the actual horse.
Long Story short - we won't know until the Devs clarify it.


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I would argue that a horse does not automatically stop moving. So you need to handle animal every round but you do not need to make it move every round (e.g. you tell the horse to stride for 4 miles or until you say otherwise). Sometimes you need to make a roll to change direction or to deal with an obstacle.

That would come out at roughly 11-12 actions per minute which is fine and not fatiguing.

This ruling makes untrained riders very bad in combat but lets them travel overland on horseback, especially when using roads.

However the wording on command animal is at least problematic which originates from the specific action terms (as stride for a horse is 40 ft and then stop). But there are of course two different possible outcomes maybe being unable to ride is intended, if its not there should be a different wording for the exploration mode or at least a clarification.

Galloping however would always be fatiguing after 10 minutes, for horse and rider.


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Am I missing something? Where does it say that anytime you do two actions you're eventually fatigued? Because it really looks like that's a guideline and not a rule. Hence "typically" has no one noticed how many times the phrase "GM's discretion" is in this book?


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vestris wrote:

I would argue that a horse does not automatically stop moving. So you need to handle animal every round but you do not need to make it move every round (e.g. you tell the horse to stride for 4 miles or until you say otherwise). Sometimes you need to make a roll to change direction or to deal with an obstacle.

That would come out at roughly 11-12 actions per minute which is fine and not fatiguing.

This ruling makes untrained riders very bad in combat but lets them travel overland on horseback, especially when using roads.

However the wording on command animal is at least problematic which originates from the specific action terms (as stride for a horse is 40 ft and then stop). But there are of course two different possible outcomes maybe being unable to ride is intended, if its not there should be a different wording for the exploration mode or at least a clarification.

Galloping however would always be fatiguing after 10 minutes, for horse and rider.

I agree with this -- and honestly, I'd kind of argue that we need a rule to handle "keep doing this action" orders.

By base, the wording of command animal implies that the animal in question only gets actions *because* you spent a Command action to give it two actions. This might be okay for summons, but it kind of ridiculous for... well, horses you bought at the stables the other day.

I'd just like a rule that says "if you order an animal to do something that it cannot accomplish in one round, it continues to take that action for one minute without prompting." This neatly covers a lot of situations, ranging from ordering your horse to continue hauling your cart in that general direction while you take a few actions to stuff your face with food, to ordering your pet dog to stay for a minute while you visit the outhouse, to ordering your bear animal companion to keep attacking that jerk with the bow until he stops existing.

I really don't think this makes 'minions' too powerful.


Davick wrote:
Am I missing something? Where does it say that anytime you do two actions you're eventually fatigued? Because it really looks like that's a guideline and not a rule. Hence "typically" has no one noticed how many times the phrase "GM's discretion" is in this book?

The confusion arises because it is worded differently at different places in the book.

Quote:

p. 329

A fatiguing tactic, such as hustling, causes fatigue after
10 minutes. A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of
actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes
roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20
Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes
fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many
actions. Someone who’s Concentrating on a Spell but not
moving still gets fatigued.
You might find that a player wants to do something
equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just
like she would in combat. This is possible in combat
only because combat lasts such a short time, and is not
sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration. If
someone tries to do this in exploration, it’s best to say no.
If pressed, have the tactic cause fatigue after 2 minutes.

This is the passage the op is referring to, which relative clearly states that 20 actions a minute are fatiguing. Again there is a roughly involved however this is not clear enough if and how the gm can play with the rule. Page 316 gives the power to the DM, however in this case one would need to guess which one is the specific rule and I would go with p. 329. Still I would not apply such a ruling for riding in non dangerous terrain ever.


vestris wrote:
Davick wrote:
Am I missing something? Where does it say that anytime you do two actions you're eventually fatigued? Because it really looks like that's a guideline and not a rule. Hence "typically" has no one noticed how many times the phrase "GM's discretion" is in this book?

The confusion arises because it is worded differently at different places in the book.

Quote:

p. 329

A fatiguing tactic, such as hustling, causes fatigue after
10 minutes. A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of
actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes
roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20
Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes
fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many
actions. Someone who’s Concentrating on a Spell but not
moving still gets fatigued.
You might find that a player wants to do something
equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just
like she would in combat. This is possible in combat
only because combat lasts such a short time, and is not
sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration. If
someone tries to do this in exploration, it’s best to say no.
If pressed, have the tactic cause fatigue after 2 minutes.
This is the passage the op is referring to, which relative clearly states that 20 actions a minute are fatiguing. Again there is a roughly involved however this is not clear enough if and how the gm can play with the rule. Page 316 gives the power to the DM, however in this case one would need to guess which one is the specific rule and I would go with p. 329. Still I would not apply such a ruling for riding in non dangerous terrain ever.

Yeah I read that. I see nothing in it that says riding is or must be fatiguing.


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Davick wrote:
vestris wrote:
Davick wrote:
Am I missing something? Where does it say that anytime you do two actions you're eventually fatigued? Because it really looks like that's a guideline and not a rule. Hence "typically" has no one noticed how many times the phrase "GM's discretion" is in this book?

The confusion arises because it is worded differently at different places in the book.

Quote:

p. 329

A fatiguing tactic, such as hustling, causes fatigue after
10 minutes. A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of
actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes
roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20
Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes
fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many
actions. Someone who’s Concentrating on a Spell but not
moving still gets fatigued.
You might find that a player wants to do something
equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just
like she would in combat. This is possible in combat
only because combat lasts such a short time, and is not
sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration. If
someone tries to do this in exploration, it’s best to say no.
If pressed, have the tactic cause fatigue after 2 minutes.
This is the passage the op is referring to, which relative clearly states that 20 actions a minute are fatiguing. Again there is a roughly involved however this is not clear enough if and how the gm can play with the rule. Page 316 gives the power to the DM, however in this case one would need to guess which one is the specific rule and I would go with p. 329. Still I would not apply such a ruling for riding in non dangerous terrain ever.
Yeah I read that. I see nothing in it that says riding is or must be fatiguing.

Any activity requiring two actions per round is fatiguing per the exploration rules. Riding requires two actions per round by rules as written: one to handle an animal and a second to actually command the animal to move. The problem arises because you must command a creature every round for it to do anything, and because Handle an Animal explicitly only lasts until the end of your turn.

Obviously this is ridiculous but that's how it shakes out by RAW. It could be fixed by only requiring Handle once instead of every round, and/or by allowing a long term Command that the creature follows until given a new Command. Until either or both happen, here we are.

I vote for both btw, as well as for fatigue to only happen when taking all three actions per round, because otherwise riding would still fatigue you the moment you decided to also talk to your companions or look out for danger.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

Any activity requiring two actions per round is fatiguing per the exploration rules. Riding requires two actions per round by rules as written: one to handle an animal and a second to actually command the animal to move. The problem arises because you must command a creature every round for it to do anything, and because Handle an Animal explicitly only lasts until the end of your turn.

Obviously this is ridiculous but that's how it shakes out by RAW. It could be fixed by only requiring Handle once instead of every round, and/or by allowing a long term Command that the creature follows until given a new Command. Until either or both happen, here we are.

I vote for both btw, as well as for fatigue to only happen when taking all three actions per round, because otherwise riding would still fatigue you the moment you decided to also talk to your companions or look out for danger.

Following on above, another reason this appears to be happening is because the rules do not make a distinction between wild and domesticated animals. They instead seem to assume everything is wild unless it is a Bonded or Companion animal. Yes, if you mount a wild hyena and try to ride it that's going to be A Process, but a domestic horse or whatever should just work.

Hopefully when they theoretically add animal training rules / tricks and tasks to the final rules, this specific problem will drop out. However, they still need to increase the actions per turn before fatigue to three. Because otherwise the problems mentioned elsewhere on these boards, like becoming fatigued if you are both diplomancing someone and looking out for them deceiving you, will still remain.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Following on above, another reason this appears to be happening is because the rules do not make a distinction between wild and domesticated animals.

There is a distinction. The first sentence of "handle animal" is: "You prepare a helpful animal to accept your commands". A wild animal isn't helpful.


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Gaterie wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Following on above, another reason this appears to be happening is because the rules do not make a distinction between wild and domesticated animals.
There is a distinction. The first sentence of "handle animal" is: "You prepare a helpful animal to accept your commands". A wild animal isn't helpful.

That's... even worse. I can see making a check every turn against a non-domestic animal, as long as it's not hostile. But a helpful animal, like a tamed mount, should generally only require a check once per day or when the situation changes / you change what they're doing.


Fuzzypaws wrote:

Any activity requiring two actions per round is fatiguing per the exploration rules.

That is incorrect.


Mnemaxa wrote:
wizzardman wrote:


Of course, this also means that horses gallop cross-country at 11mph (actual horse average is 30mph), while humans sprint at 8.5mph (actual average is closer to 15mph), so giving horses with riders 3 actions of running (assuming 140', that's just under 16mph) would put them closer to the actual ratio of horse-speed to human speed, while simultaneously also meaning that your standard domesticated horse is capable of running at the same speed as a 'monster' horse (because they'd have the same number of actions).

It takes the well trained Horse and rider about 15 hours to travel 100 miles at hard pace over basic dirt roads, and that is assuming breaks and stops.

The well trained runner does the same distance in about 18 hours, assuming breaks but no stops.

These are real and accurate times from the Western States Run and the Tevis cup, the two endurance runs held in the foothills of Northern California. In both cases these are well trained, well practiced individuals who do this sort of thing constantly.

And for the fantasy standard of a truly exceptional horse: Red Hare of Romance of the Three Kingdoms could travel 1000 li in a day, which is ~4158 kilometers (2583 miles) under the contemporary for the story (but not author) 415.8 m=1 li (there's a reason Lu Bu kills his dad for it). In 3.5 you could obtain roughly that fast under a CL 14 Phantom Steed, but PF nerfed it hard.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The above works with long term riding applying to some animals specifically bred for riding. Horses, elephants or such but would need special tag or maybe listed in the rules as domesticated.

If animal is 'bred' for riding such as mounts you find at the next township, I would rule you need to do a stamina check at the end of 4 hours of continuous riding to see if you become fatigued.

Just my on the spot house rule. What else would work?


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Davick wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

Any activity requiring two actions per round is fatiguing per the exploration rules.

That is incorrect.

I mean, you can want what you want and I agree it shouldn't, but:

Page 329 wrote:
A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20 Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many actions.

So yeah, 2 actions per round in exploration mode means fatigue.


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Well, it only says that sort of thing is "typically" fatiguing. The system as it stands is less a clearly-defined rules base and more of a "rely on GM to be reasonable" system.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Davick wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

Any activity requiring two actions per round is fatiguing per the exploration rules.

That is incorrect.

I mean, you can want what you want and I agree it shouldn't, but:

Page 329 wrote:
A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20 Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many actions.
So yeah, 2 actions per round in exploration mode means fatigue.

It says both roughly and typically, there is no rule that says a horse will stop after moving for a round after you told it to move, because handle animal and command animal only refer to their encounter mode actions. Encounter mode actions most of the time are very hard to translate directly into exploration mode.

And there are a couple of other parts giving the DM agency to decide with the strong connotation to rule in the players favor.

Quote:

Use the list of common

tactics that follows as inspiration. If you come up with
your own idea, the GM will adjudicate your idea using
these as a baseline.
Quote:


Exploration is intentionally less regimented than
encounter mode...
Fundamentally, exploration is all about rewarding the
PCs for learning about their surroundings. Encourage the
players to have their characters truly explore, and reward
their curiosity

And most importantly.

Quote:

Adjudicating the Rules

As the GM, you are responsible for solving any rules
disputes. Remember that keeping your game moving takes
precedence over being a hundred percent correct
. Looking
up rules at the table can slow the game down, so in many
cases you’ll be making your best guess rather than scouring
the book for the exact rules. (It can be instructive to look
those rules up during a break or after the session, though!)
To help make calls on the fly, use the following guidelines
the game rules are based on. You might want to keep
printouts of these guidelines and Table 10–2: Skill DCs by
Level and Difficulty (see page 337) close for quick reference.

If however you want to adjudicate the paragraph you cite strictly we have a huge problem with the example tactics and some more:

Defending (Raise shield + stride, 2 actions/round, not fatiguing)
You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon
out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the
benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

Detecting Magic (cast detect magic + stride, 3 actions/round not fatiguing)
You cast detect magic while moving at half your travel
Speed. You have no chance of accidentally overlooking a
magic aura at a travel Speed under 300 feet per minute,
but the party could move into a magic aura before you
detect it for travel Speeds over 150 feet per minute. You
can always move at a slower travel Speed while detecting
magic to cover the area more thoroughly. Unlike most
types of repeated spellcasting, detecting magic is not a
fatiguing tactic.

However it would be very easy to clear up this mess by just giving ride its own action under nature, as searching, tracking or sneak and some other tactics already have their own, to leave no room for misinterpretation as it is obviously intended that people can ride without dropping exhausted from their mount after 10 min.


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I did rule for my own playtest sessions that the group could ride, and that anyone with the Ride feat could also use an exploration tactic like keeping lookout or the like. Obviously riding a trained animal shouldn't be hard, especially if you are a trained rider yourself. But the rules definitely need clearing up.


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vestris wrote:

Defending (Raise shield + stride, 2 actions/round, not fatiguing)

You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon
out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the
benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

Move half speed: 5 Stride/minute.

Always have a shield raised: 10 action/minute.
Total: 15 actions/minute. Less than 20.

Actually, the Defending tactics looks it has been created by some rule lawyer: "wait, you said earlier I can avoid fatigue by spending half my time taking non-fatiguing tactic?... OK, here's what I do: 1 round stride + raise my shield (fatiguing), 1 round raise my shield (not fatiguing), 1 round stride + raise my shield (fatiguing), etc. I spend exactly half my time using non fatiguing tactic."

I guess Detect magic tactic is "1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), 1 round Stride (not fatiguing), 1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), etc"; or: 5 stride, 5 2-action detect magic/minute, total 15 action/minute.

That's exactly the framework I used to create a "mount something" action earlier in the thread: assuming a standard optimized character (ie 1/2 chance of failing at handle animal), the tactic is: "1 round fail at handle animal (not fatiguing), 1 round succeed at handle animal + command animal (fatiguing), 1 round fail at handle animal (not fatiguing)", in the end it allows the character to move at half the mount's normal speed without fatigue.

Or: 10 handle animal (50% success rate), 5 command animal/minute, total 15 action/minute. The mount stride 5 times/minute, so half the mount's normal speed.

Spoiler:
Alternative exploration rule:
1/ every character gets 3 exploration actions/minute.
2/ an exploration action consists of the same encounter action repeated 5 times.
3/ the character cannot move more than 10*his base speed per minute (in other words, he can't use three exploration stride action; in the other hand, he can use 3 stealth action since the total distance he'll cover is 7.5*his speed). Some other very physical actions may have the same limit as decided by the GM (pump iron, smash walls...).
Doing anything more than that is possible (up to 30 encounter actions/minute, possibly 30 strides), but is quickly fatiguing.

This rule still doesn't allow to shadow someone... But it's still better and more streamlined than the original rule.


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I foresee the mount attribute and the pack animal attribute. Mounts an easy one, beast countinues stride until interrupted by command or some outside affect. Pack attribute sounds awesome too.. I envision my gnome bard with his trained pack mole.

Interestingly enough, attributes could be the feats for animals with the tight control of the action system and could certainly be a way to customize your character more.


Maybe add a Mount Trait that includes ruling to make it not a fatiguing action to ride. That seems simplest. Basically make Handle Animal checks necessary only when in combat or attempting to command it to do something other than overland travel. Like my car, I expect my fantasy mount to just work... i don't need to be fred flinstone-ing all over golarion....

I do like the concept of animal sticks to its last command... but that action economy is just too good. Borderline OP... will make summon swarms a thing again.

Maybe that could be a feat to add to the APG... Pack Handler... allowing your command an animal check apply to a certain number of animals of same type. etc.

Sorry Golden Fox, I totally just read your post after posting this... sounds like we are in agreement.


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Or stop trying to pretend that translating a Combat Simulation (Encounter Mode) tranlsates well into freeform roleplaying (Exploration mode). Every example we see that causes headaches are from Things that are there for balancing the Action economy in Encounter mode (Command Animal, Raise Shield, Sneak as half move) that have no place in Exploration mode. I have not yet heard an example where this actually helps in making the Transition to Encounter Mode easier (stated design Goal) or made adjucating Actions during travel easier/more intuitive. (sorry to shroudb, the only person that actually gave examples - I was just not convinced by them)

The only thing it does is create niche cases where your actual travel Speed is of interest and even there it leads to useless discussions.

I am sorry, but while Exploration mode can have a place, it gets worse when you try to apply Encounter Mode logic.


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Some would argue that Exploration and Encounter mode shouldn't require two different forms of logic in order to work, but that's not really the topic of this thread so I'll stop there.


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Gaterie wrote:
vestris wrote:

Defending (Raise shield + stride, 2 actions/round, not fatiguing)

You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon
out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the
benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

Move half speed: 5 Stride/minute.

Always have a shield raised: 10 action/minute.
Total: 15 actions/minute. Less than 20.

Actually, the Defending tactics looks it has been created by some rule lawyer: "wait, you said earlier I can avoid fatigue by spending half my time taking non-fatiguing tactic?... OK, here's what I do: 1 round stride + raise my shield (fatiguing), 1 round raise my shield (not fatiguing), 1 round stride + raise my shield (fatiguing), etc. I spend exactly half my time using non fatiguing tactic."

I guess Detect magic tactic is "1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), 1 round Stride (not fatiguing), 1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), etc"; or: 5 stride, 5 2-action detect magic/minute, total 15 action/minute.

That's exactly the framework I used to create a "mount something" action earlier in the thread: assuming a standard optimized character (ie 1/2 chance of failing at handle animal), the tactic is: "1 round fail at handle animal (not fatiguing), 1 round succeed at handle animal + command animal (fatiguing), 1 round fail at handle animal (not fatiguing)", in the end it allows the character to move at half the mount's normal speed without fatigue.

Or: 10 handle animal (50% success rate), 5 command animal/minute, total 15 action/minute. The mount stride 5 times/minute, so half the mount's normal speed.

** spoiler omitted **...

So pathfinder 2 exploration mode is a stop motion movie? It does not say that you take a move action only every other turn. And you cannot let actions spill over turns, so it is stride + raise shield every turn with the extra prerequisite of reducing your speed while being on guard.

However it has been said often enough that strict translation from rules that are meant to control the action economy in combat into "roleplay" exploration mode is not the way to go. And it does not shed any useful insight on unclear exploration rules that are meant as guidelines with a lot of GM freedom that is intended to be fun and rewarding (as of raw) for the players.


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To me it would appear, regardless of what actions it may take to move while on a mount in Encounter mode, the tactic used while in Exploration mode is what largely determines whether or not you'd get fatigued.

One could then reason that while riding a mount (again, regardless of actual skills and feats involved) one would be employing the Wandering Exploration tactic, which is not marked as (Fatiguing), which in turn means that one could ride said mount without worrying about the Ride feat or any other such thing.


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You do realize that the Guidelines explain word for word that the number of Actions per turn translate into what Kind of tactic you perform?


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I think for the final book it would be important to clarify the separation of Encounter and Exploration actions, just to remove potential for pedantry, but to me it's pretty clear it's intended for the two to be separate, and to use the usual Wandering, etc. states for general travel when not in combat, rather than breaking it down to action-by-action rounds. Using this breakdown, wouldn't actions such as eating and dribbling a ball for 10 minutes be fatiguing?

For our Chapter 2, we used the basic exploration rules and did not use the handle/command steps until combat began, and I'm convinced we played it as intended.


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vestris wrote:
So pathfinder 2 exploration mode is a stop motion movie? It does not say that you take a move action only every other turn.

That's actually what the rules say. Maybe you should read the rules. It's a forum where people discuss about the rules, after all.

Spoiler:
p 329 "A tactic [...] which doesn’t cause fatigue, consists of [...] an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as searching’s alternation of Stride and Seek)."

And no, i don't care about your opinion on the matter. My framework follows the rules, you don't even know the rules, i don't care about what you think the rules are.


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What ENHenry says. It#s just that right now, the rules are supporting the opposite. I understand the idea - by reusing existing Actions you don't Need to come up with a completely new System. And it makes it easier to translate whatever Actions and abilities they come up with later. It's just - it does not work very well.
And just starting the chapter "go with whatever is fun for the Players and wing it" does not really help when even the example tactics are confusing as heck and do not really Support that mindset.


Gaterie wrote:
vestris wrote:
So pathfinder 2 exploration mode is a stop motion movie? It does not say that you take a move action only every other turn.

That's actually what the rules say. Maybe you should read the rules. It's a forum where people discuss about the rules, after all.

** spoiler omitted **

You are quoting a notion that is from the general rules referring to the specific rules of the searching tactic which does not include any action numbers and instead states you move at half your speed while searching which implies you move and search at the same time (or you do both every round).

When your interpretation is correct there will be no "search" tactic as depending on the player description it is fatiguing or not. Move 10 feet stop and then search is 1 action a turn. Move 10 feet while searching is 2 actions a turn. Same for defending. Or detect magic.
You as the GM would be the adjudicator if the descriptions of your players are sufficient and if they become fatigued or if you force them to live in a stop motion video.

Why would anyone even defend at half speed when he could defend without fatiguing at 90% of the speed?

Why would anyone hustle when he could just wander quickly at 190% of the speed?

Quote:
I guess Detect magic tactic is "1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), 1 round Stride (not fatiguing), 1 round cast the spell (fatiguing), etc"; or: 5 stride, 5 2-action detect magic/minute, total 15 action/minute.

Maybe you should read the rules instead of guessing? I don't care about what you guess the rules are.

Quote:

p.329 Any tactic involving spellcasting causes

fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many
actions.

Detect magic is only non fatiguing because the specific rule says so and not because of the underlying action economy. Because every spell casting tactic is normally fatiguing.

This is an exception of the general rule and sets the precedent for more exceptions on the GM's behalf.

Quote:

Use the list of common

tactics that follows as inspiration. If you come up with
your own idea, the GM will adjudicate your idea using
these as a baseline.

You could also just use the existing framework and create an action for exploration mode riding (without the talent) based on the skill actions track, sneak, cover tracks. Having such an action as I proposed earlier would negate the specific problem. However I would like to have a more general approach as in the survey wildlife action that somehow goes on for 10 minutes for a single action, as it is meant for exploration mode.

Now this could read like this:

[A] Ride
In encounter mode:
You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying
you, either because you previously used Handle
an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat
(see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride,
and Strike basic actions...
In exploration mode:
You can use the ride action which allows you to handle animal and move up to half the mounts speed. If you have the ride feat instead move up to the mounts full speed.

Going back to the specific problem of riding:

Quote:

p.153 Command an Animal: Most animals understand only the simplest instructions,

so you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a
certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there...

To move 40 ft. is a pretty precise and complex instruction compared to start moving, now I tell the horse to start moving and give it the general direction later I give it the command to stop after we reached the destination 100 ft away. Two actions of command, plenty of actions to handle. Now its up to you to decide whether or not the horse arbitrarily stands still after 40 ft.

And again

Quote:

Fundamentally, exploration is all about rewarding the

PCs for learning about their surroundings.

However I am very unhappy with the inclusion of the fatiguing paragraphs as it is completely arbitrary and does not include the staged affliction system, as there is only 1 level of fatigue. Multiple levels of fatigue that can be reversed by resting shortly would be great to have. But that is a different problem from the OP entirely.


vestris wrote:
You are quoting a notion that is from the general rules referring to the specific rules of the searching tactic which does not include any action numbers and instead states you move at half your speed while searching which implies you move and search at the same time (or you do both every round).

p 329 it states it's an alternation of strike and seek. Period.

Quote:
Why would anyone even defend at half speed when he could defend without fatiguing at 90% of the speed?

???

The rules say you have to spend half your time doing non-fatiguing tactic. Raise a shield + stride is fatiguing. How can you possibly move at 90% speed without fatigue?

Quote:
Detect magic is only non fatiguing because the specific rule says so and not because of the underlying action economy. Because every spell casting tactic is normally fatiguing.

Right, I forgot about the super-special-random exception about the Detect magic tactic.

Oh, look, I stopped caring about the byzantine and unusable exploration rules. As OP suggested and as explained by the RAW and the RAI, just assume riding is fatiguing after 10 minutes - like "being stealthy while looking around" is fatiguing after 10 minutes.


Gaterie wrote:
vestris wrote:
You are quoting a notion that is from the general rules referring to the specific rules of the searching tactic which does not include any action numbers and instead states you move at half your speed while searching which implies you move and search at the same time (or you do both every round).

p 329 it states it's an alternation of strike and seek. Period.

Which is part of the general rules and specific trumps general. There is a reason why they created specific actions for sneaking, tracking and the like that specifically allow to do sneaking at half speed, because you need to do it (stealth + stride) together every turn!

Quote:


Quote:
Why would anyone even defend at half speed when he could defend without fatiguing at 90% of the speed?

???

The rules say you have to spend half your time doing non-fatiguing tactic. Raise a shield + stride is fatiguing. How can you possibly move at 90% speed without fatigue?

Because fatiguing requires to use 20 actions in 1 min over 10 min (if interpreted as strictly as you did earlier). Move 9 times per minute raise shield 10 times per minute 19 actions. Not fatiguing.

Quote:


Quote:
Detect magic is only non fatiguing because the specific rule says so and not because of the underlying action economy. Because every spell casting tactic is normally fatiguing.

Right, I forgot about the super-special-random exception about the Detect magic tactic.

Oh, look, I stopped caring about the byzantine and unusable exploration rules. As OP suggested and as explained by the RAW and the RAI, just assume riding is fatiguing after 10 minutes - like "being stealthy while looking around" is fatiguing after 10 minutes.

You have been pretty worked up and insulting for a thing you claim to not care about.

I disagree with OP and will go by my RAI as I do not think RAW implies what the OP suggested, which is why I am even bothering with this thread.

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