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The solution is to remove the onerous and really unrealistic fatigue rules or at least amend them to something less... I am struggling to find a polite word here.
Yeah, okay, when I do a slightly strenous activity for 10 minutes at a time , I need to lie down for 8 hours or I'll be physically fatigued for the rest of the day. That sounds totally something which every marathon runner and person who works in a job with extended physical activity can endorse, surely.
Otherwise we'd have people heating their tea with Prestidigitation, because that would be FUN and we can't have that!
PF2E: Balancing fun out of the game.
Sorry, that's been bothering me the whole week now.
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The same page adds,
You can reset the 10-minute timer for fatigue’s onset if the
group spent a reasonable amount of time on less strenuous
activities. As a rule of thumb, the characters should spend
about as much time on non-fatiguing tactics as they did
on the fatiguing tactic for the timer to reset.
Thus, the feat-less rider could ride for 9 minutes, rest for 9 minutes, and repeat, essentially riding at half speed for an extended period. Unfortunately, this is slower than walking.
It is also weird that the rider becomes fatigued but the horse does not.
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If you have neither Ride, nor a Companion; 'mounted wandering' is indeed a fatiguing tactic.
However, if you have Ride, 'mounted wandering' becomes nonfatiguing (because you're spending 1 Command An Animal action to get 1 action in return; and you don't have to Handle a Friendly mount if you have Ride).
If you have a Companion, both "mounted wandering" and "mounted hustling" become nonfatiguing for you (because you're spending 1 Command An Animal action to recieve 2 actions in return, and Minions don't need to be Handled either); "Hustling" is still fatiguing for the mount however (since it is spending 2 actions per round).
In addition, the DC isn't unlisted, its dependant on the Animal's level. A Warhorse is 3rd Level IIRC (and makes a decent Mount until your Companion's HP finally catch up).
It is also weird that the rider becomes fatigued but the horse does not.
Why wouldn't the tactic rules apply to Companions too? They are characters/creatures too (the terms are explicitly interchangible in this edition). A companion or familiar (or cohort when those become available) can engage in tactics so long as you engage in a 'leadership'-like tactic (i.e. Commanding A Minion every round) to keep supplying them with actions you control. They can still act autonomously if necessary, as such I'd allow an uncommanded minion (such as a companion or familiar) to follow behind you on the grounds that being left behind* would cause obvious harm to the minion. Minions can act uncommanded to defend themselves and avoid harm.
*because the master you are explicitly loyal to doesn't say 'Come 'er boy/gal' ten times a minute...
It is also weird that the rider becomes fatigued but the horse does not.Why wouldn't the tactic rules apply to Companions too? They are characters/creatures too (the terms are explicitly interchangible in this edition). A companion or familiar (or cohort when those become available) can engage in tactics so long as you engage in a 'leadership'-like tactic (i.e. Commanding A Minion every round) to keep supplying them with actions you control. They can still act autonomously if necessary, as such I'd allow an uncommanded minion (such as a companion or familiar) to follow behind you on the grounds that being left behind* would cause obvious harm to the minion. Minions can act uncommanded to defend themselves and avoid harm.
*because the master you are explicitly loyal to doesn't say 'Come 'er boy/gal' ten times a minute...
I looked over the rules, and I didn't see that animal companions can be commanded without Handle Animal actions. Did I miss that rule, or is that that Cantriped is asking about?
Animal companions can perform two actions for each one-action command, so in theory a companion could Stride twice in the turn that its master uses Handle Animal and Command Animal, and then both master and mount rest the next turn (or more practically, the mount rests and the master uses one action to carefully look ahead with Perception) to avoid fatigue. That way an animal-companion mount can travel at an average speed of one Stride per turn.
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I apologize; I seem to have accidentally posted this thread twice across different subforums.
Yeah, okay, when I do a slightly strenous activity for 10 minutes at a time , I need to lie down for 8 hours or I'll be physically fatigued for the rest of the day. That sounds totally something which every marathon runner and person who works in a job with extended physical activity can endorse, surely.It really is silly. We all know that after some strenuous physical activity (other than life-or-death combat, mysteriously), it takes a full eight hours to recover from the exertion.
I suffer from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and that is what my life is like. Except that the recovery is three days of restricted activity rather than eight hours of sleep.
I have two advantages over other people with CFS. First, I have no mental impairment, so I could still perform the higher mathematics necessary for my job. Second, I can feel a characteristic spike in muscle pain when I hit my threshold of exercise tolerance and stop right before I trigger the fatigue. That would be like a character carefully counting out nine minutes and nine rounds right before stopping to rest to avoid fatigue.
I was amused when the Pathfinder 2nd Editon designers named a bard muse "polymath." Now I see that they based their fatigue rules on me, too.
I looked over the rules, and I didn't see that animal companions can be commanded without Handle Animal actions. Did I miss that rule, or is that that Cantriped is asking about?
Animal companions can perform two actions for each one-action command, so in theory a companion could Stride twice in the turn that its master uses Handle Animal and Command Animal, and then both master and mount rest the next turn (or more practically, the mount rests and the master uses one action to carefully look ahead with Perception) to avoid fatigue. That way an animal-companion mount can travel at an average speed of one Stride per turn.
You do not have to Handle Animal on a Companion or Familiar because they possess the Minion Trait. They're also explicitly described as "loyal comrades who follow your orders" in the case of Companions, or not even technically animals anymore in the case of a familiar. The Rulebook's wording is vague at best, and downright misinformative; so see the Playtest Bestiary for the more accurate description of the Minion Trait instead. Which describes Commanding A Minion as if it were an entirely different action with (with minion-based requirements).
Handle An Animal is an Action Tax that only applies to NPC Animals (those bought from the equipment section or else acquired as rewards rather than from an Ability or Feat) to make them less useful than minions. Note use of the conditions Helpful, Friendly, and Indifferent (which appear on pages 322-323) as requirements. The Ride and Animal Bond feats only exist to make acquiring additional non-scaling animals more viable; neither applies to companions or other minions. They're literally just very flavorful feat taxes on a tactic the developers were worries would be overpowered (having multiple creatures under your command).
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So command animal is clearly worded for encounters not for exploration. Now lets say you want to adapt the skill use to riding in exploration tell the horse to move, tell the horse to change course tell the horse to stop that are roughly 3 actions needed for travelling on horse, you do not need to tell the horse every 6 seconds not to stop it doesn't have an autostop function. Except if you travel a cpu driven horse that exactly does what its told, in the sense of command = stride -> horse moves up to 40 feet, in combat yes not in exploration. This was if anything an oversight. I don't even think that it needs better wording.
Fatiguing however is something else entirely but not really the core of this thread. I like that magic is treated differently here than everything else, not sure about the metrics but the general idea is fine. There need to be different degrees of fatigue (which is one of the advantages of the labels in general, strangely fatigue does not have a value assigned to it) and then different types of rest to reverse said fatigue states, like: Short Rest: Duration: 10 min Reduce your fatigue level by 1, unless you are fatigued 5 which can only be reversed by a long rest. Everything of course if one would want to keep the current system.
I don't think it was necessary to give a name to "exploration" mode and hence create some basic rules for it making it complicated and create room for misunderstandings, missed labels (combat exploration labels for different skill uses) etc.. But that is where we are, I will never use any specifics from the exploration "ruleset" in practice when running non playtest games and even in those I don't think the intention was to hard limit the players but rather to give newer DM's some idea of whats possible and whats not.
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Have the devs commented at all on the issue?
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I've seen many posts on this and I wonder if I am the only GM that let the PCs ride animals without making those checks? It seems ridiculous to me that every six seconds each PC would need to handle and command the animal to continue moving.
My group was given trained mounts to ride. They rode them until there was a battle. The PCs would have needed to use Handle Animal and Command Animal at that point to use them in combat. They opted to dismount and engage on foot.
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I've seen many posts on this and I wonder if I am the only GM that let the PCs ride animals without making those checks? It seems ridiculous to me that every six seconds each PC would need to handle and command the animal to continue moving.
My group was given trained mounts to ride. They rode them until there was a battle. The PCs would have needed to use Handle Animal and Command Animal at that point to use them in combat. They opted to dismount and engage on foot.
A reasonable GM would never make people those checks out of combat, much less every six seconds, no. It is probably worth clarifying the rules text just because not everyone applies common sense. Adding a "riding tactic" that specifies it isn't fatiguing would suffice for example.
A reasonable GM would never make people those checks out of combat, much less every six seconds, no. It is probably worth clarifying the rules text just because not everyone applies common sense. Adding a "riding tactic" that specifies it isn't fatiguing would suffice for example.I've seen many posts on this and I wonder if I am the only GM that let the PCs ride animals without making those checks? It seems ridiculous to me that every six seconds each PC would need to handle and command the animal to continue moving.
My group was given trained mounts to ride. They rode them until there was a battle. The PCs would have needed to use Handle Animal and Command Animal at that point to use them in combat. They opted to dismount and engage on foot.
I don't prefer the introduction of all the mechanics describing exploration, but that seems like a reasonable approach based on the direction the game system has gone.