The Extremely Frosty Mystic Theurge

[VixieMoondew]

Howdy, folks!

I've been pondering this since my book happened to fall open to the "Mystic Theurge" page in the CRB last night. I'm currently playing an Oracle with the Winter Mystery, hoping to throw some divine chilliness around as our party's control specialist-- between the initial Blessing at the start of the fight, and the inevitable healing after.

However, I had the idea of tossing a Sorcerer on top of that, then starting a Mystic Theurge prestige once I've got the requisite levels under my belt. I was, of course, thinking of doing a cold-focused bloodline (eyeing Rime or Marid at the moment), or even doing a Crossblooded so I can get both bloodline powers.

Thoughts? Concerns? Strong objections? Better ideas (aside from "don't")?

[Meirril]

Fair Warning: You're about to make an extremely weak caster. Oracle and Sorcerer both share the same spell progression: it takes them 4 character levels instead of 3 to cast 2nd level spells. After that they have the same progression as Wizards, Clerics and every other casting class: every 2 character levels they gain a spell level.

One of the 'big' problems with Mystic Theurge is you are effectively 3 levels behind everybody else when it comes to the most powerful spells you can cast. This makes for a very weak cleric/wizard. For example at 10th level when other classes are throwing around 5th level spells, you're just barely getting 4th level spells. Now you can cast spells for days because you have the spell slots from 2 classes, but that doesn't really make up for the difference in spell levels. Simply put higher level spells are significantly more powerful and getting access 4 levels later is bad.

Now you aren't making a cleric/wizard. Instead you're choosing 2 of the slowest progression casters and that will make you effectively 5 levels behind everybody else! At 10th level you'll get your first 3rd level spells. Everybody else will of had those since 5th-6th level! And that will be the gap between you and every other caster, because ever 2 levels after that EVERY caster gains a spell level. You never catch up.

I think its possible to make an effective character using Mystic Theurge, but it requires careful thought. If you haven't carefully considered the downsides and what role your character plays in the party (currently and after you start down this path) it would be a good idea to do so now.

[VixieMoondew]

Thanks for the knowledge! I've never played a caster before, and even my non-casters have never gotten above level 3 (I just haven't been playing that long), so that's good to know.

For reference (if this helps?), our current loadout is:
-Catfolk Skald (buffs and damage)
-Tengu Investigator/Rogue (utilities for now, will start dealing crazy damage in a couple levels)
-Tiefling Wizard (very experienced player who is very much about optimization, teleport specialization)

My party role thus far has been "buffs" and a little bit of melee damage here and there. Not sure how much I'll be able to supplement with scrolls, wands, etc. as I go along?

At the very least, the Ice Armor revelation should go nicely with avoiding arcane spell failure while still providing good AC... if I end up going this route at all.

[Scrapper]

While the point of slower spell progression has been made, looking at it from just playing an Oracle 5/Sorcerer 5 you would have 2nd lvl spell access with both class, while an Oracle 3/Sorcerer 3/Mystic Theurge 4 would have access to 3rd lvl spells for both classes.
Mystic Theurge is an interesting choice if you want the ability to mix spells and at lvl 10 use the cast a divine and arcane spell at same time once per day ability, tossing in Quicken Spell if you want a 3rd spell in same round.

Another Down Side though, Mystic Theurge only adds to caster lvls for spell progression, Sorcerer bloodline abilities remain as 3rd lvl as do any Oracle abilities dependent on Class Level.

So we have slower spell progression with a lower ceiling on spell lvls, but we have significantly more spell casting in quantity and flexibility in what spells to cast when, again adding in Quicken Spell, for a quick heal or surprise damage cast or buff.

[VixieMoondew]

Quick note, it'd be Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4 before I could start taking Mystic Theurge-- so if we're looking at level 10, that'd be O4/S4/MT2. Which would still have access to 3rd level for both classes, but it sounds like we're working with the same idea.

I was thinking that, to supplement my lack of gaining Revelations or Bloodline spells, I might take Extra Revelation here and there. I'm not certain if the required level for my revelation might be influenced at all by Mystic Theurge, but RAW I'm leaning towards "no"... but I could see an argument for "yes."

My "trademark spell" I was thinking would be Frost Fall, which I would get at Oracle 4 anyway.

I like the Quicken Spell idea-- that's quite attractive.

[VixieMoondew]

Upon further research, would probably not need Crossblooded, since I can get Rime-Blooded's "Slow" effect from the "Freezing Spells" revelation. That frees me up to settle for Elemental (Cold) and get a bunch more chilly spells to play with.

[Meirril]

If what you are really looking for is the ability to get more variety of spells then just dip 1 level into Sorcerer with the Elemental (water) bloodline. Water ends up being cold.

With just 1 level in Sorcerer any elemental spell you select can be switched to cold damage and gains the cold descriptor when you cast it that way. So you can make Flamestrike into Coldstrike. You can't change things like Blade Barrier because it isn't elemental damage in the first place.

Also being a 1st level sorcerer will let you use most Sorcerer/Wizard spell completion items.

I'm not convinced that taking a dip into another class will be better than sticking with pure Oracle, but 1 level is a lot more acceptable for a casting class than 4 levels. You do gain significant benefits from a one level dip. Mystic Theurge certainly has its own benefits but I remain unconvinced that it gets enough benefit to make for a character that other players can rely upon.

Basically anyone making a Mystic Theurge is halting their character's progress once they start adding a second class. Adding 1st level spells from a different class isn't significant when you are talking about class advancement. Also in the long run 2nd level spells aren't really a big deal. As a high level caster you'll tend to throw your favorite 1st level spells while you tend to end the day with most of your 2nd level spell slots unused. So it isn't until you become a Mystic Theurge that you start gaining strength again. Well, unless the 2nd class you picked up does something to advance your character other than add spell casting ability? Or the low level spells are particularly good for your class?

One build that I was thinking had some potential for a Mystic Theurge is Magus/Warpriest. Both of these classes get their first 2nd level spell at 4th level so your talking 9th before you take 1 level of Mystic Theurge. But that doesn't seem to be a problem for this character since the class abilities of the two synergize to make for an exceptional melee caster. You use all of your Arcane Pool points and Sacred Weapon ability to strengthen your weapon. You use Spell Combat to give you an additional strike each round and cast a free magus spell. You use your Fervor to cast Warpriest spells as a swift action.

For a limited number of fights per day you are a self-buffing 3/4th fighter that spikes for very good damage. However your pool points are very limited. You are generally only good for 2-4 fights a day before your main tricks are gone. Though you can extend that by using feats to buy more pool points, but that means not expanding your character with feats. Still its interesting and it could be fun and effective.

I don't think of the Magus/Warpriest MT as more powerful than either pure class, in a way its going to be weaker. But its interesting and can do some surprising things which I think could be fun to play with. I think that is what you really need to focus on with a mystic theurge, what kind of fun can you pull of of the character to make up for the very slow spell progression?

[Dasrak]

Keep in mind that you cannot actually use quicken spell until 14th level, since you need 5th level spell slots to make use of it and won't get those before then. Mystic Theurge is an extremely late-bloomer that is punishing to play through the low and mid-levels, and only really starts to deliver on the theoretical promise of the build at very high levels. It is playable, so don't take this the wrong way, but you do have to be prepared to be a passive support character for most of your career.

With regards to bloodlines, if you're going mystic theurge you probably aren't going to get much from any of the cold-themed bloodlines. Rime is marginally better than the others, but you're really just here for Sorcerer spellcasting. If you're going with a one-level dip just for bloodlines, I agree with Meirril with the suggestion of water, or primal water if you really care about raw damage. Crossblooded is a great choice for one-level Sorcerer dips, but would be terrible for a mystic theurge. The loss of spells known hurts far more than any possible gain you could get from it.

Scrapper wrote:

but we have significantly more spell casting in quantity and flexibility in what spells to cast when,

This is untrue at most levels. If you actually add up the number of spell slots and spells known; single-class characters have more than mystic theurges for most of their career. For instance a 10th level Sorcerer with 28 charisma has 36 spell slots and 25 spells known (presuming you make use of human favored class bonus, which most sorcerers will). An Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 4 / Mystic Thuerge 2 has 34 spells lots and 21 spells known. You do get access to two separate spell lists, but the single-class character has access to 4th and 5th level spells which you do not, so versatility-wise you're still behind.

It's really not until 14th level that mystic theurge actually delivers on its promise of more versatility and more spells per day. Before then its spell level disadvantage completely neutralizes any advantage it might have. This is a very long and punishing road to get there.

[Gulthor]

The best way to make a viable Mystic Theurge (in my opinion, really the *only* viable way) is if you're able to use the Spellcasting Guild rules from Inner Sea Magic (which are completely and utterly broken, so I would not expect a GM to allow you to use them as written, if at all).

Spellcasting Guilds grant access to the Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training guild perks, which do the following:

Inner Sea Magic wrote:

Eclectic Training: Choose one spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.

Esoteric Training: The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to three (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice).
Select a second spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.

Eclectic Training can be earned around level 3 on average, and Esoteric Training can be earned around level 5 or so. Note that they use the language used by prestige classes that actually increase your spellcasting - these aren't simply caster level increases, these are full-blown spellcasting increases.

Here's why they're busted: they're completely, 100%, totally free. You just have to mail in some homework during downtime by making skill checks that you can easily manipulate into succeeding with perfect accuracy.

Our group turned them into feats to make them a bit more balanced, and they work pretty well for us.

House Rules wrote:

Eclectic Training

Prerequisites: Ability to cast spells, Knowledge (any) 3 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks

Esoteric Training
Prerequisites: Combined Spells class feature, Eclectic Training, Knowledge (any) 7 ranks, Spellcraft 7 ranks

With the standard Spellcasting Guild rules, you could be an Oracle 3/Sorcerer 1 with the +3 bonus keyed to Sorcerer and the +1 bonus keyed to Oracle, probably entering mystic theurge around 6th level as either an Oracle 4/Sorcerer1 (effective O5/S4) or Oracle 3/Sorcerer2 (O4/S5). So you'd either be O4/S1/MT1 (effective O6/S5) or O3/S2/MT1 (effective O5/S6), giving you full spellcasting ability in one of your two spellcasting classes, and only delaying your other class by a level.

With our rules, you'd have to go Oracle 3/Sorcerer 4 (or vice-versa), enter Mystic Theurge at 8th level, and then picking up Esoteric Training at 9th. It doesn't lessen the potency, but it does delay it and add a price to it.

This probably sounds bonkers OP, and for some groups/tables, it would be, so know your own table and what's appropriate. The problem with MT is that even though you're drowning in spells, you're incredibly light on class features, your class features don't advance, and you still can only cast one spell per turn, regardless of how many you can cast per day. There is a price.

But I would strongly recommend against Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 1 for all the reasons explained in prior posts.

[avr]

If you're already an oracle I don't see this working well. If you just want a few more frosty sorcerer spells I suggest a different prestige class to get just those rather than a whole new spellcasting progression. e.g. pathfinder savant or daivrat.

[Meirril]

If you can get a GM to read Inner Sea Magic and agree to introducing a Guild to the campaign I could see that working out well. While it doesn't cost character resources, its more of a built up benefit of playing the game. You can't just instantly get the abilities.

First there is a significant skill barrier, as well as a significant amount of gold needed to join and maintain membership in these guilds. You only receive opportunities to advance your fame for 5-6 points per character level. The skill barrier is significant. For most of them it wouldn't be reasonable to attempt them before you have a 10+ skill.

Electic Training only requires 5 fame. That is almost immediately obtainable. Esoteric Training on the other hand requires 35 fame. That is at least 6 levels worth of 100% success on rolls, and 5 bonus points (which you can only earn 1 of each level). That +3/+1 bonus would go a long way to closing the power gap of a Mystic Theurge to other casters.

But again this all depends on the GM being ok with incorporating the magic guild into his game. If he doesn't assign missions or RP guild activities and NPCs at all...its not worth giving a bonus. These sort of campaign based bonuses are only worth introducing when the game heavily uses them as a carrot and stick set up.

Still, its worth asking about.

[Thunderlord]

Ice Armor would be a waste of a revelation as you'd stop your Oracle progression so the bonus would come into effect. Mage armor will be the better option or going magus instead of sorcerer. An Eldritch Scion Magus gets charisma to casting and a bloodrager bloodline but you wouldn't get to progress it much.

[VixieMoondew]

Hrrm. This isn't one where I'd likely have access to such a guild (it's a pre-built adventure path without a lot of time for such things). At this point, I'm leaning towards a level dip.

The idea of Eldritch Scion Magus (rather than Sorcerer) is one I'll definitely look at and research, since I feel like it might mesh well with the fact that divine casters like the Oracle are usually half-combat anyway.

Thanks for the advice, y'all! You've given me a lot to think about.

[the David]

VixieMoondew wrote:

I've never played a caster before, and even my non-casters have never gotten above level 3 (I just haven't been playing that long), so that's good to know.

This right here makes me think that you should stick to one class. Spontaneous casters are easier to play than the non-spontaneous casters. Either Sorcerer or Oracle would be a good choice for you.

If your GM allows third party I'd suggest you'd try Spheres of Power. To me, it seems easier to learn than the standard spellcasting rules. It's also easier to create a theme for your spellcaster, like cryomancy.

Edit: You don't even need Mystic Theurge if you'd use Spheres of Powers as casterlevels stack when you multiclass. A level 10 Sorcerer/level 10 Oracle would have a casterlevel of 20.
Or you could just make an Incanter and use specializations to pick up 2 bloodlines and a cleric domain.