Character creation ends with mostly the same 18,16,14,12,10,8 build


Creating a Character

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I don't see the problem. Your group can always use the rolling rules if you'd rather not use this method of ability generation.

As a Game Master, I shifted over to set arrays for ability generation years ago and only use die rolling when running a campaign with an "old school" vibe. I like this model a lot more than set arrays for a lot of reasons. Like set arrays, it also gives classes suffering from multiple attribute dependency a consistent boost - which is very nice.

I also don't see the problem with playing a slightly sub-optimal Dwarf Bard. 16 CHA is just fine.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Thaboe wrote:
But they could always just say a few words and try to roll that DC 10 to assist. The number of times I've seen a face roll poorly, only to be saves because the rest of the party chipped in with few words and their assists. That was the beauty of a DC 10 for assists. EVERY roll could count.

Are you aware that the new DC to aid another is 15?

And with the potential of adding in a penalty of -2 to the primary character if they fail to meet the DC by 10 or more?


Mistwalker wrote:
Thaboe wrote:
But they could always just say a few words and try to roll that DC 10 to assist. The number of times I've seen a face roll poorly, only to be saves because the rest of the party chipped in with few words and their assists. That was the beauty of a DC 10 for assists. EVERY roll could count.

Are you aware that the new DC to aid another is 15?

And with the potential of adding in a penalty of -2 to the primary character if they fail to meet the DC by 10 or more?

I was referring to the situation in PF1 where one character shines while the rest stand around since they have no chance of succeeding at the check because of low bonuses.

So I have no idea why you are bringing up the new rules.


My halfling fighter Acolyte ended up with a 12 STR, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Cha. I think a lot more variation will occur as more archetypes come out with different attribute requirements


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What we are finding is that "Balance" comes at a cost. When Paizo started to emphasise extreme balance for society play so you could bring any character from any game in the world to any other society game in the world we started to lose something in the process. You could no longer role play a better reward, role play a cleaver monetization scheme or craft something to sell. Why? because so much of this is subjective on how successful a given idea would be so they simply eliminated the option. Society play was about making sure you made your perception rolls to find treasure and your characters killed the monster and when the writer of a module included social rewards you had a good enough bonus to make your roll. Everything became mechanical. They literally removed the role play from a role playing game. I understand why it was done but I feel the price was too high.

Now we are seeing them double down on balance being dominant vs subornment aspect of their system. Perfect balance =/= better game. Rock, paper, scissors is a perfectly balance game. Who plays that for FUN? No one or rather very, very few people. It is used to arbitrate things because it is so balanced but no one sits down with a 1/2 dozen of their friends and plays rock, paper, scissors for 5 hours. Why? because it isn't fun.

When the combo of race and background are so balanced that unless you take a combo that is punitive to a desired class there is no difference you have failed to make a good game. Sure it is balanced but it isn't interesting and it isn't fun. And when a game isn't fun it can't be good. I mean every single background gives two stat bonuses, 1 free and one a choice of between two, 1 skill feat and 1 skill. WTF? This is so utterly bland and boring. I'm like why bother? Why not just say at first level you get 2 free stat boosts 1 skill and 1 skill feat and be done with it because backgrounds add NOTHING to your character to be pointless. it is so absurd that a Noble and a street urchin are exactly the same so as to start with no advantage one way or the other and they are both just as rich as each other. Really? we are that subservient to balance now that you can't even allow that variance at first level? I don't know call me crazy but I expect my nobles to be richer than my street urchins in the game.

We shouldn't be subservient to rules in an RPG they should be subservient to us, but this strive for perfected balance has taken a once varied and flavourful full meal of a game and turned it into porridge and we are all poorer for it. I understand the too much imbalance is bad but so is too much balance we need a level of imbalance to keep the fun in the system otherwise the more we flatten our the game to make it balance the more it losses something in the process. The fun is found in the bumps and valleys of the system the imperfections that allow us to find a niche and enjoy the experience. Flatten things out too much and you get a dull boring pointless game.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I love being able to create character stats extremely quickly, and "18, 16,14,12, 10, 8" is a classic memorable array anyway.

For as long as I did PF1, I could never manage to do point buy without looking at a chart.

I like to give my players the choice of rolling or taking 17,15,13,11,10,8. The two are very close in terms of distribution.


Reverse wrote:
I seem to have ended up with a 16 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 14 / 10 for a first character, rather than this required array? Am I doing something wrong, or is it actually possible to build characters with different stats?

You can have 14,14,14,12,12,12 if you want to be decent in everything but not really good at anything.

But at lvl 5 that could turn into 16,16,16,14,12,12 or 16,14,14,14,14,14
so it is not that bad.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Fun fact : if you are a human Barbarian looking to multiclass into Cleric as early as possible, you end up with STR 16 and CON 14 because of the WIS 16 multiclass requirement.

So, significantly weaker than a non-multiclassing human Barbarian from the start, even though you get no benefit from your multiclassing yet


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The Raven Black wrote:

Fun fact : if you are a human Barbarian looking to multiclass into Cleric as early as possible, you end up with STR 16 and CON 14 because of the WIS 16 multiclass requirement.

So, significantly weaker than a non-multiclassing human Barbarian from the start, even though you get no benefit from your multiclassing yet

So it's possible to build a character who is weaker for a level in prep for future advancement? Is that a complaint? I don't really see the problem with a player deciding to be suboptimal for a few levels in exchange for future versatility. That's a pretty common aspect of multiclassing across most of the systems I'm familiar with.


i'm comming at this really really late but...
as an elf investigator a decided to focus dex and int and got
str 12
dex 18
con 12
int 18
wis 10
cha 08
as my stats so you are kinda wrong somewhere

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