Pathfinder / Starfinder bias?


Starfinder Society

4/5

**Warning**

**Rant ahead**

I was surprised at a Starfinder game at a local game store to see a player apparently upset/angry about "Pathfinder players trading for Starfinder boons" because this is "removing them from circulation." Is there really a feeling that some players are somehow less worthy if they play more than one game, or if they decide to try out something different while Paizo works on the playtest? It seems to me that discouraging potential players is the last thing we want to do, and that there should be a natural crossover in the player base. Further, as long as people are trading boons, how is this removing anything from circulation? The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and yes, it's because while I play both I am overall more interested in Pathfinder and don't need a purist telling me that I am somehow not a "real Starfinder player" because of it.

The Exchange 1/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I routinely GM and Play both PFS and SFS, often at the same Con. I usually get to pick which GM boon I want and if I roll for player boons like at GENCON and some others I have this season at least been picking more SFS boons because PFS is transitioning to PFS2. I have never been asked, chided, ect about my boon selection choices or trades. Sorry this happened to you Real!

Dark Archive 1/5 5/5

I am not the individual you are complaining about, and you can find out who I am fairly easily. I am, however, very disappointed that instead of trying to discuss this at the table, you choose to damage another's reputation in public, without making any attempt to understand the conditions that prompted his statement.

2/5 5/5 *

To be fair, no names or locations were given in the above rant, so nobody's reputation was injured.

It appears that the poster was looking for a safe place to vent his feelings without the interpersonal drama of the physical location and the people involved and without pointing fingers. This is an acceptable thing to do. So, unless there is more being written in other public threads that publicly out or vilify the source of his frustration, you've actually chased him down to make him feel bad about his own personal feelings.

I understand why he wanted a safe place to vent, if that's the case.

Regarding the original poster's observation: this is not something that I have witnessed locally or at any of my tables at GenCon this year. I would expect it is an individual thing rather than cultural.

Dark Archive 1/5 5/5

GM Blake wrote:

To be fair, no names or locations were given in the above rant, so nobody's reputation was injured.

It appears that the poster was looking for a safe place to vent his feelings without the interpersonal drama of the physical location and the people involved and without pointing fingers. This is an acceptable thing to do. So, unless there is more being written in other public threads that publicly out or vilify the source of his frustration, you've actually chased him down to make him feel bad about his own personal feelings.

I understand why he wanted a safe place to vent, if that's the case.

Regarding the original poster's observation: this is not something that I have witnessed locally or at any of my tables at GenCon this year. I would expect it is an individual thing rather than cultural.

Except that his identity is VERY easily established, despite his anonymous handle, by anyone in our local circle. Which damages things locally.


RealAlchemy wrote:

**Warning**

**Rant ahead**

I was surprised at a Starfinder game at a local game store to see a player apparently upset/angry about "Pathfinder players trading for Starfinder boons" because this is "removing them from circulation." Is there really a feeling that some players are somehow less worthy if they play more than one game, or if they decide to try out something different while Paizo works on the playtest? It seems to me that discouraging potential players is the last thing we want to do, and that there should be a natural crossover in the player base. Further, as long as people are trading boons, how is this removing anything from circulation? The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and yes, it's because while I play both I am overall more interested in Pathfinder and don't need a purist telling me that I am somehow not a "real Starfinder player" because of it.

I routinely gripe about pathfinder boons being traded for starfinder ones and it has very little to do with a sense of purism.

I as a starfinder only player have limited access to boons. The fact that a pathfinder player can show up with a 701 dripping with boons makes me bristle. I want fun things too.
Yes I certainly can get some boons if I DM buuuuuuut guess who gets prioriy at cons... pathfinder GMs so even in this aspect as a starfinder player I am still made to feel less than.

I wont say anyone is not a real starfinder player but if you are admitting to dabbling while you are using community resources some people might not feel great about that. Particularly those that are struggling to get those resources it's a perfectly natural reaction.

The Exchange 1/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Im not sure about the PFS GMs get the priority at Cons thing? When I GM both I have to pick which GM boon I get, I don't get both. If you are meaning PFS GM's get more chances to get boons at Cons then trade them for SFS boons from SFS players or GMs then I think I get your drift.

However, some of the "real Starfinder players" must be trading their SFS boons to "dabbling" SFS players so actually who is at fault here? I think there is more to this conversation/OP then what we are privy to. Friendships and fun are tangible things that should not be ruined over intangible benefits on pieces of paper.

I also think that you might see many PFS players, trading out boons for Starfinder boons as they move away from PFS to SFS while they wait for PFS2 to come online.

2/5 5/5 *

I'm seeing why he came to vent rather than dealing with the people involved.

So if I'm "dabbling" in Starfinder and I sign up for the last seat at a Starfinder table at your venue before you get to it, then I've done something wrong and harmed you? How much worse if your venue is involved in the RSP and my dabbling self wins a boon. Maybe there should be an attendance requirement to roll for boons.

Because that's where your line of thinking goes.


It's not about who gets priority after they are selected to GM at a con the statement was about who gets priority TO be picked at a con. I have seen dedicated starfinder GMs getting selected for fewer tables at a few cons (paizo among them)while pathfinder GMs who have been GMing for years get those same starfinder tables. This is not wrong because as a person who organizes several shows a year. I will always prioritize a DM who I trust over one I don't know. This does add to the difficulty of getting Starfinder Boons into the hands of those that really want them.

While on that particular phrase. Yes people are trading boons away that means that they either have too many or didnt really want them in the first place. Either answer is not all that comforting to the have nots. It's still not about real or not.

as for my use of the word dabble

Dabbling: : a superficial or intermittent interest, investigation, or experiment

not used with any judgement despite the word superficial in there. People can like pathfinder and want to play other things maybe they will decide they like other thing more or maybe they wont. Not my concern as I am not them.

the person I quoted said something to this effect and possibly said it to who ever they had words with, I submit that saying you are dabbling to someone willing to have said words does not have a positive effect.

1/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Oregon—Portland

Its natural for people to be upset when the friends you've made playing one game start to shift interest to other games you don't play. Those people are going to develop unwarranted negative opinions about that new game and even try to draw social lines in an effort to protect their remaining community of friends from getting absorbed into it.

That's entirely human and natural, even if self-defeating in the long run. Unless someone steps over the CoC line this is just the weather we have to bear.

If too many Shadowrun players start drifting interest for Starfinder the same thing will happen with them, you'll start seeing posts about how "dumb" Starfinder is and broad stereotypes about "Starfinder players".

Its one of the reasons I've been focusing my Starfinder outreach on video gamers which have a much more fluid and loose community.

2/5 5/5 *

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John the New comes to the local venue to try Starfinder. He says, "Hi! I'm new."

Ben the Boon-tiful, a long time GM and player says, "Hi, new guy! Have this Woioko race boon that I don't need."

Fred the Patient has been a long time member of the local venue and never asked to anything, patiently trying to earn interesting boons, is at the same table and gets all hot and bothered that this new guy who may never play SFS again just got a race boon and he's got nothing.

These are Fred's feeling, and he can have them, but they are not productive feelings, If Fred vents them in a fashion that makes other players feel less inclined to return to the venue or participate in Organized Play, then Fred should take a moment to consider the effect he has had (and not have his friends chase down someone so discouraged by his antics and make them feel worse for feeling discouraged in the first place).

Bottom line is that people can do what they want with their own boons: use them, trade them, shred them.

Dark Archive 1/5 5/5

Amazingly, it seems that everyone not present knows exactly what is going on, and jumps to support the guy who decided to vent on a public forum, where they can expect their semi-anonymous post to get support, while insulting someone, instead of venting in private, say, to a friend, or deciding to settle things at the table, so that the only people involved in the events comment on them.

For the record, I do NOT agree with Kingbrendarr on the issue of boons. I was not asked by anyone to chase down RealAlchemy. And in person, I would be more likely to side with RealAlchemy on this issue. But RealAlchemy erred in making this an issue on a public forum, where people who know nothing of the situation see things through a distorted lens, make their own assumptions, make judgments on the people involved, and only add to the problem. And that is why he ended up hurting his own reputation with me, and prompting my comments about disappointment.

Arc, I really appreciated you organizing the special, and giving me a chance to actually play one. I had a lot of fun, but it did affect things the following day, after a lot of travel. I know that I was in a great deal of pain, and short on sleep at the session in question, and at least one of those applied to others as well. It had nothing to do with people leaving one system for another, making your post one of those that I referred to above, and was probably triggered by my comment that I had traded a PFS boon (actually the only one that I had, from GMing PFS at the only convention I had attended previously) for an SFS boon that will, by reports, be obsolete in a few months. That brought up the matter of boons in the discussion.

In general, I feel that these sorts of rants are not productive on a public forum, and I would ask that RealAlchemy consider whether it would be best to ask the moderators to remove the entire thing.


GM Blake wrote:

John the New comes to the local venue to try Starfinder. He says, "Hi! I'm new."

Ben the Boon-tiful, a long time GM and player says, "Hi, new guy! Have this Woioko race boon that I don't need."

Fred the Patient has been a long time member of the local venue and never asked to anything, patiently trying to earn interesting boons, is at the same table and gets all hot and bothered that this new guy who may never play SFS again just got a race boon and he's got nothing.

These are Fred's feeling, and he can have them, but they are not productive feelings, If Fred vents them in a fashion that makes other players feel less inclined to return to the venue or participate in Organized Play, then Fred should take a moment to consider the effect he has had (and not have his friends chase down someone so discouraged by his antics and make them feel worse for feeling discouraged in the first place).

Bottom line is that people can do what they want with their own boons: use them, trade them, shred them.

indeed it is the bottom line that you do with your things what you want. That is why until it was brought up I have not gone to the forums to "vent" about it. Nor have I said to anyone at a table that they are less than because of how they choose to use their things.

Yes I have griped to people who I consider friends because that is one way to handle feelings.
I only posted in this thread because it was asked if this was a thing and I offered my opinion that it was indeed a thing.

so bottom line more than one person feels irritation at having fewer opportunities for fun things in the game they are playing. As I tried to say in my OP. This is natural, but yes how they handle it makes all the difference.


World of Dim Light wrote:

Amazingly, it seems that everyone not present knows exactly what is going on, and jumps to support the guy who decided to vent on a public forum, where they can expect their semi-anonymous post to get support, while insulting someone, instead of venting in private, say, to a friend, or deciding to settle things at the table, so that the only people involved in the events comment on them.

For the record, I do NOT agree with Kingbrendarr on the issue of boons. I was not asked by Kingbrendarr to chase down RealAlchemy. And in person, I would be more likely to side with RealAlchemy on this issue. But RealAlchemy erred in making this an issue on a public forum, where people who know nothing of the situation see things through a distorted lens, make their own assumptions, make judgments on the people involved, and only add to the problem. And that is why he ended up hurting his own reputation with me, and prompting my comments about disappointment.

Arc, I really appreciated you organizing the special, and giving me a chance to actually play one. I had a lot of fun, but it did affect things the following day, after a lot of travel. I know that I was in a great deal of pain, and short on sleep at the session in question, and at least one of those applied to Kingbrendarr as well. It had nothing to do with people leaving one system for another, making your post one of those that I referred to above, and was probably triggered by my comment that I had traded a PFS boon (actually the only one that I had, from GMing PFS at the only convention I had attended previously) for an SFS boon that will, by reports, be obsolete in a few months. That brought up the matter of boons in the discussion.

In general, I feel that these sorts of rants are not productive on a public forum, and I would ask that RealAlchemy consider whether it would be best to ask the moderators to remove the entire thing.

for the record I was unaware who any of the people mentioned were.

2/5 5/5 *

Rants are never productive save for the catharsis of the person posting the rant--assuming that he does not get attacked, but it is a risk of making statements in public--but I support his prerogative to make a rant where he names no names or venues.

For example, I might want to rant about the young man at a convention who told me at the table that I was a bad GM for enforcing the flow of the game when a different, experienced player wanted to re-do his turn, three turns later because he had misremembered his own character's abilities. Sure, if time permitted, I could have taken the young man aside and explained the reasoning behind my call and dealt with it there. But maybe I just felt like venting on the Paizo forums about having my feelings hurt while GMing at a convention. Someone from that table might somehow recognize me and the situation while browsing the Paizo forums, but they wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on if they decided to vilify me for venting on an anonymous forum. That person would be better received in the public eye if they said, "Hey, I was actually part of that discussion you overheard. I'm sorry that you were discouraged. This is what we actually said and meant."

EDIT: The entirety of my support of the original poster's content was to give my experience of not seeing that attitude and my opinion that what he observed was an individual opinion rather than a cultural phenomenon. End Edit.

Kingbrendarr, however, has twice implied--intentionally or not--that if you say you're "dabbling" or are perceived to not be invested 'enough' in the game system and receive some sort of system benefit (a boon, in this case), be it from another player or random luck, that you are deserving of other players' irritation or negative reactions (i.e. envy). That implication fosters an exclusive attitude in a system that is supposed to be open and welcoming.

He's more than welcome to clarify his meaning, but the rebuttal of the sentiment that his previous words--inaccurately conveyed/received or not and captured in perpetuity by the Internet--invoke still stands.


I will attempt clarification.

There seems to be a conflation of two points that in my head were distinct.

Point 1. Privledge is irritating to those without it. Having access to extra manners of collecting boobs is a privledge some players don't have. Its allowed but because the extra way is limited it does not always sit well with the people who don't have it. It does not mean they are not worthy but they have a privledge and that can cause irritation. It is a normal response to privledge that there are countless examples of.

Point 2. A person who is irritated may respond with more irritation if a person says they are only dabbling and try to explain its perfectly in the rules to use your privledge. This was in direct response to the OP who does in fact say they are dabbling while pathfinder 2 takes shape. Again its fine to dabble I encourage it in gaming it keeps everything fresher. But the OP had expressed concern about the emotions involved. I was trying to be constructive but I can easily see how it came off differently. I do apologize for that miscommunication.

2/5 5/5 *

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Kingbrendarr wrote:
Having access to extra manners of collecting boobs

*chuckles* Well, I think that finished the thread.


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GM Blake wrote:
Kingbrendarr wrote:
Having access to extra manners of collecting boobs
*chuckles* Well, I think that finished the thread.

Uninitentional but a nice giggle once you caught it.

4/5

GM Blake wrote:

I'm seeing why he came to vent rather than dealing with the people involved.

So if I'm "dabbling" in Starfinder and I sign up for the last seat at a Starfinder table at your venue before you get to it, then I've done something wrong and harmed you? How much worse if your venue is involved in the RSP and my dabbling self wins a boon. Maybe there should be an attendance requirement to roll for boons.

Because that's where your line of thinking goes.

You are correct. I asked a question about something that felt wrong to me. I deliberately did not bring up names or locations, and as I play in multiple locations assumptions about who and what I am referring to may or may not be warranted. I see how certain individuals respond. The response was enlightening, and will help determine where and how I play in the future.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **

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I am a passionate Starfinder player / GM who currently only has 1 nova because I was trying to finish up my PFS stars first. For those irritated by privilege, I am probably the exemplification of that irritation, because my -701, Charli, started out with a legacy gnome boon after being a GM baby for only a few weeks. Of my other 4 Starfinder characters, 3 have boons. Two are race boons earned from GMing at Conventions — a nuar and a legacy elf. One is an earned Skittermander who is one box away from completion, and then will come out.

To someone coming from the outside, I am a PFS player dripping with Starfinder boons. They won’t see the two boons I gave away to local players, or the boon contest I held to give out another legacy boon. They won’t see how much work I have put into Starfinder locally or online. I will just look like another rich claim jumper.

But that’s too short sighted a view. I do think that at PaizoCon it was a shame that more of the Starfinder only GMs did not get grabbed for Starfinder. You folks are putting in the time to build the campaign, you should get first dibs. But we also should welcome those who play in both campaigns. Starfinder needs those players. Starfinder needs those GMs. Even casual players and GMs build the campaign overall when they take part, and having a diversity of players and a diversity of GMs is a good thing.

One blessing with SFS is that there are far more player options and non-con options to earn Starfinder race boons. Even if you never go to a convention, even if you never GM, you can earn special race boons. This is something that Thursty and John have done brilliantly — opening up new ways to get that Cantina feeling.

I am hoping that we can all be welcoming to our Starfinder Nufriends, no matter what planet they hail from. I am also hoping that all of our Starfinder regulars who feel left out of the boon train make their feelings known so that we can add new player and GM options to RSP in the upcoming season.

Respectfully Yours,

Hmm

PS If you are looking for ways to earn boons, have you considered GMing online? I don’t want you to GM solely for the boon, but I know it can be an incentive. PBP Gameday VII just started, and if Play-by-Post is not your groove, there are also conventions that happen in Virtual Table Top. You don’t have to be shut out of cool boon options. Online conventions can reach you even if you are in an area where there are no local options.

GMing online won’t get you a Nuar or Ikeshti, but it will currentlly net you a Ferran or Woikio, and both look rather cool and interesting. It’s something to consider, at any rate.


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Hmmm
Thank you you for your words. I might indeed try online DMing it does suit my time a bit more currently.

I don't want to belabor the other points but thank you for finding hope and positivity. All I want is to be part of a large very large community and play more starfinder

The Exchange 1/5 5/55/55/55/5 Venture-Agent

GM Hmm wrote:
I do think that at PaizoCon it was a shame that more of the Starfinder only GMs did not get grabbed for Starfinder.

I was one of these GMs, I don't mind it though, while I consider myself primarily a Starfinder player/GM, I am comfortable enough with Pathfinder to do a good job GMing it. I put 'Any' in my selection with a prefer SFS note.

I only had 2 novas at that point, compared to 0 stars, but I heard from people that it was their first SFS experience and they would have preferred PFS. It was odd, but I'm not that concerned about it, I know how hard it can be to schedule big events where you're trying to juggle the schedules of in this case likely 100 different people to make sure that everything works out.

That being said, I was able to get SFS boons rather than PFS boons (probably because I volunteered for either program and prepped out a SFS evergreen).

I actually had a different experience locally, however. We have a large number of people who want to run SFS, more people than there are players for the tables. I had a con locally where I wasn't able to get the SFS boon because the only tables available to run were PFS. I ended up running a PFS special and trading with another con attendee for the SFS megaregion boon. Then another time I was signed up to run a PFS special and a SFS table, the SFS table didn't make but the special table did. I was able to get the SFS boon because I was ready and able to run.

I do understand the theory behind only getting the boon if you run a game in that system, but I think it makes a lot more sense to let GMs pick regardless of what they get assigned if they are ready and willing to run either system like what happened at PaizoCon rather that what happened locally.

1/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Oregon—Portland

World of Dim Light wrote:


Arc, I really appreciated you organizing the special, and giving me a chance to actually play one. I had a lot of fun, but it did affect things the following day, after a lot of travel.

Yea I basically slept Monday to recover, that was the first time I've organized an event and it was much more work than I expected.

World of Dim Light wrote:
I know that I was in a great deal of pain, and short on sleep at the session in question, and at least one of those applied to others as well. It had nothing to do with people leaving one system for another, making your post one of those that I referred to above

I had no idea who you were until you mentioned this weekend which led me to look at your profile. I'm glad you had fun, it was certainly exciting to see so many people having a blast playing The Scoured Stars Invasion together, and I'm sorry to hear that the trip home was so rough.

Not to be misunderstood, the spirit behind my post is that its natural, expected, and OK for people to have emotions on the PFS1/SFS/PFS2 matter. Its not just a game, its all the friendships you make around it and the immense personal time and effort invested to keep it going.

I'm otherwise not supporting any side on this incident which I honestly don't fully grasp.

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