Elves & Drow


Ancestries & Backgrounds

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One of our major PCs is a drow (the drow in our game world are not CE, but rather LN). We would request that the elf ancestry have options that allow for a drow build.


I'm sure Drow will turn up as an ancestry heritage feat eventually. Possibly even in the DMG at launch.


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Trixie99 wrote:
One of our major PCs is a drow (the drow in our game world are not CE, but rather LN). We would request that the elf ancestry have options that allow for a drow build.

YES! If goblin can be a race now, I would love to see Drows.


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YES! If goblin can be a race now, I would love to see Drows.

My point exactly!


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Gosh I really hope Drow don't get turned into a heritage feat.
That's already a terrible shame for half-elves and half-orcs, we don't need actual unique races getting flung into that mess.
We need the races to feel more like themselves again, not turn more races into feats that take entirely too long to get going anywhere iconic.


Sydney S. wrote:

Gosh I really hope Drow don't get turned into a heritage feat.

That's already a terrible shame for half-elves and half-orcs, we don't need actual unique races getting flung into that mess.
We need the races to feel more like themselves again, not turn more races into feats that take entirely too long to get going anywhere iconic.

If the half elf/orc feats did something as tangible as the other species options, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

As is, yeah. I want species to feel unique.

Dark Archive

Probably not for the playtest, but it'll absolutely happen within a few books. As is, just sub Int for Cha and low-light for darkvision and call it a day.


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Drow are an Ethnicity, they shouldn't need a seperate Ancestry if human ethnicities don't deserve the same treatment.

They might write a Drow Heritage feat to upgrade Low-Light Vision to Darkvision, grant an occult cantrip, and access to all the 'uncommon-to-non-drow-junk'. Same goes for all the other 'deep-folk'.

Sans that option though, an Ethnicity entry could just as easily note minor changes to the Ancestry's initial benefits. Such as replacing the Int Boost with a Cha Boost, and gaining Darkvision and Light Sensitivity instead of Low-Light Vision.


I would be interested in seeing how 2.0 would develop the drow.

Dark Archive

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Cantriped wrote:

Drow are an Ethnicity, they shouldn't need a seperate Ancestry if human ethnicities don't deserve the same treatment.

They might write a Drow Heritage feat to upgrade Low-Light Vision to Darkvision, grant an occult cantrip, and access to all the 'uncommon-to-non-drow-junk'. Same goes for all the other 'deep-folk'.

Sans that option though, an Ethnicity entry could just as easily note minor changes to the Ancestry's initial benefits. Such as replacing the Int Boost with a Cha Boost, and gaining Darkvision and Light Sensitivity instead of Low-Light Vision.

Sure.

Drow (Heritage, Feat 1)
Your dark blue skin and white hair identify you as a citizen of the darklands. You have elven features, but most elves would never accept your kind in their society. Instead of a boost to intelligence, your gain a boost to charisma. You gain darkvision as a dwarf or goblin adventurer, and you are able to take Drow ancestry feats in addition to Elven ancestry feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Darklands Magic (Feat 1)
Choose one cantrip from the occult spell list. You can cast this spell as an innate occult spell at will. The cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up.

Drow Noble (Feat 5)
Prerequisites: Darklands Magic
Your power is tied to the darklands, and manifests at your will. You can cast 2nd-level darkness as an innate occult spell once per day.
Special You can take this feat again to instead cast 4th-level darkness as an innate occult spell once per day.

Darksight (Feat 5)
Your ties to darkness have improved your eyesight. You gain greater darkvision, allowing you to see through even 4th-level darkness without penalty.


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I like that list, but I suggest that Drow Heritage should include a second 'minor' benefit, such as becoming Trained in Deception, or granting either Read Lips or Sign Language as a bonus Skill Feat.

Dark Archive

Darkvision is a pretty good bonus in and of itself. I was erring on the side of underpowered. What about "gain access to Drow Sign language"?


I know I can house rule it, but for the sake of the playtest, I am eschewing house rules.

Scarab Sages

Trixie99 wrote:
One of our major PCs is a drow (the drow in our game world are not CE, but rather LN). We would request that the elf ancestry have options that allow for a drow build.

Or at least have the elf ancestries have some feats to be a drow built, like have darkvision instead of low light vision, etc.


Mergy wrote:
Darkvision is a pretty good bonus in and of itself. I was erring on the side of underpowered. What about "gain access to Drow Sign language"?

Darkvision is totally feat worthy if you're a Human (see Half-Orc for example). However, Elves already have Low-Light Vision, stepping up to darkvision from there is worth closer to one-half or one-third of a feat.

As a side note, I don't rate "access to an additional list" as more than a flavor benefit by itself. Power creep (in both first and third party supplements) will inevitibly homogenize the ancestry feats even more than they already are.
In lieu of an official mechanic I'll treat drow as an ethnicity and make the appropriate adjustments (outside of playtest environment of course).

Dark Archive

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Honestly, I would consider creating new ancestries and backgrounds as a small part of the playtest. I made some drow ancestry feats in about five minutes; they're not perfect, but they're certainly playable. If we can do that with this system, then I'm pretty happy.


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Drow shouldn't be an Elf variant in some cases, as their culture is totally separate from theirs. For example Drow have their own Weapon Familiarity and shouldn't have access to the elven one. Then there's also light blindness and all those SLA they get. I think they're different enough to be unique and have lots of feat choices.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Bring back free dual-wielding of all one-handed weapons for drow!


Cantriped wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Darkvision is a pretty good bonus in and of itself. I was erring on the side of underpowered. What about "gain access to Drow Sign language"?

Darkvision is totally feat worthy if you're a Human (see Half-Orc for example). However, Elves already have Low-Light Vision, stepping up to darkvision from there is worth closer to one-half or one-third of a feat.

As a side note, I don't rate "access to an additional list" as more than a flavor benefit by itself. Power creep (in both first and third party supplements) will inevitibly homogenize the ancestry feats even more than they already are.
In lieu of an official mechanic I'll treat drow as an ethnicity and make the appropriate adjustments (outside of playtest environment of course).

Going up from lowlight to darkvision is considered a full feat by paizo judging that the half orc have exactly that, a feat to turn low to dark.

Access to a list is also feat worthy. Adopted does LESS (doesn't give access to physiological feats) than that and it's a general feat.

Dark Archive

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ChibiNyan wrote:
Drow shouldn't be an Elf variant in some cases, as their culture is totally separate from theirs. For example Drow have their own Weapon Familiarity and shouldn't have access to the elven one. Then there's also light blindness and all those SLA they get. I think they're different enough to be unique and have lots of feat choices.

Their weapon familiarity is pretty awful. It's hand crossbow instead of longbow/shortbow and short sword instead of longsword.

I represented their SLAs with Darklands Magic for a cantrip and Drow Noble for darkness. As for light blindness... I guess? Sure, throw it into the base one if you really want. Dazzled is really bad in PF2 though, so it's not going to be as much fun for the player.


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shroudb wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Darkvision is a pretty good bonus in and of itself. I was erring on the side of underpowered. What about "gain access to Drow Sign language"?

Darkvision is totally feat worthy if you're a Human (see Half-Orc for example). However, Elves already have Low-Light Vision, stepping up to darkvision from there is worth closer to one-half or one-third of a feat.

As a side note, I don't rate "access to an additional list" as more than a flavor benefit by itself. Power creep (in both first and third party supplements) will inevitibly homogenize the ancestry feats even more than they already are.
In lieu of an official mechanic I'll treat drow as an ethnicity and make the appropriate adjustments (outside of playtest environment of course).

Going up from lowlight to darkvision is considered a full feat by paizo judging that the half orc have exactly that, a feat to turn low to dark.

Access to a list is also feat worthy. Adopted does LESS (doesn't give access to physiological feats) than that and it's a general feat.

Huh, so it does, I'd misremembered how half-orcs progress as I have zero personal interest in them. Seems like a raw deal when you could have just played a dwarf and kept that feat and a half for something interesting.

Regarding Adopted, no it really isn't General Feat worthy either. Not now, and certainly not after a few years worth of monthly publications homoginize all the lists even more than they already started. Further, until Paizo adds 'genetic' and 'cultural' tags to ancestry feats the clause in Adopted is pretty meaningless (or rather subject to severe table variation). Adopted By Humans arguably grants the entire list for example, same goes for the other lists with obvious exceptions. Not that any of the lists really have anything worth being taxed a general feat for... except maybe the ability to convert your remaining ancestry feats into general feats through General Training after you've taken the one or two options you actually wanted.


I do hope that the Drow can be incorporated into the Elf heritage rather than making it a whole separate thing. But, there have been so many unique abilities attributed to make them powerful and formidable opponents, that I am not sure that a single feat would properly cover everything they have been depicted as being able to do.


Tzakkesh wrote:
I do hope that the Drow can be incorporated into the Elf heritage rather than making it a whole separate thing. But, there have been so many unique abilities attributed to make them powerful and formidable opponents, that I am not sure that a single feat would properly cover everything they have been depicted as being able to do.

Drow Heritage:

Heritage
Elf
You are a Drow you gain (X signs of heritage). Select two of the following benefits: Darkvision (with light blindness), Arcane Innate Spells, immunity to sleep, something like a dwarf's ancient's blood for resisting magic.
Additionally, you replace your Common racial language with Undercommon. Your starting language selection changes to: Common, [some other languages]
Special: You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

Then leave Poisons to something else.


Core setting drow are chaotic evil. They are vicious, cruel, manipulative, and not suitable for play in a heroic campaign. This was plainly stated by JJ in Second Darkness.
But if you play in your own setting where they are LN, then you've already got your own different rules. So, do like these others suggest, and just give them darkvision and say they're drow.


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Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Core setting drow are chaotic evil. They are vicious, cruel, manipulative, and not suitable for play in a heroic campaign. This was plainly stated by JJ in Second Darkness.

It's also outdated. They don't get much focus, but by now the Lantern Bearers have reformed, allied with Sarenrae, and work on redeeming the drow, apparently with some success stories by now.

Within the Lantern Bearers, given their growing alliance with Sarenrae’s faith, the traditions of the blossoming light have found the perfect place to flourish. These clerics are increasingly at the vanguard of the organization’s efforts to redeem the fallen, particularly drow who seek to escape their society’s strictures.


shroudb wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Darkvision is a pretty good bonus in and of itself. I was erring on the side of underpowered. What about "gain access to Drow Sign language"?

Darkvision is totally feat worthy if you're a Human (see Half-Orc for example). However, Elves already have Low-Light Vision, stepping up to darkvision from there is worth closer to one-half or one-third of a feat.

As a side note, I don't rate "access to an additional list" as more than a flavor benefit by itself. Power creep (in both first and third party supplements) will inevitibly homogenize the ancestry feats even more than they already are.
In lieu of an official mechanic I'll treat drow as an ethnicity and make the appropriate adjustments (outside of playtest environment of course).

Going up from lowlight to darkvision is considered a full feat by paizo judging that the half orc have exactly that, a feat to turn low to dark.

Access to a list is also feat worthy. Adopted does LESS (doesn't give access to physiological feats) than that and it's a general feat.

Ancestry feats don't equate to General Feats though-- I think Ancestry feats are largely better. Or at least more interesting.

I also think Darkvision is still worth a feat if you already have low light vision. Darkvision has always been crazy good and it has only gotten better this edition.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
I also think Darkvision is still worth a feat if you already have low light vision. Darkvision has always been crazy good and it has only gotten better this edition.

That's because low-light vision is functionally non-existent.


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Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Core setting drow are chaotic evil. They are vicious, cruel, manipulative, and not suitable for play in a heroic campaign. This was plainly stated by JJ in Second Darkness.

It's also outdated. They don't get much focus, but by now the Lantern Bearers have reformed, allied with Sarenrae, and work on redeeming the drow, apparently with some success stories by now.

Within the Lantern Bearers, given their growing alliance with Sarenrae’s faith, the traditions of the blossoming light have found the perfect place to flourish. These clerics are increasingly at the vanguard of the organization’s efforts to redeem the fallen, particularly drow who seek to escape their society’s strictures.

They are, admittedly, still overwhelmingly chaotic evil as a society. There's a lot more drow than there are opportunities for Lantern Bearers to seek their redemption, and cultural inertia alone ensures that success stories will be rarer than the reverse. The point there is that drow are not genetically or inherently evil, and are just as capable of good as any other mortal being. ^_^


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Core setting drow are chaotic evil. They are vicious, cruel, manipulative, and not suitable for play in a heroic campaign. This was plainly stated by JJ in Second Darkness.

It's also outdated. They don't get much focus, but by now the Lantern Bearers have reformed, allied with Sarenrae, and work on redeeming the drow, apparently with some success stories by now.

Within the Lantern Bearers, given their growing alliance with Sarenrae’s faith, the traditions of the blossoming light have found the perfect place to flourish. These clerics are increasingly at the vanguard of the organization’s efforts to redeem the fallen, particularly drow who seek to escape their society’s strictures.
They are, admittedly, still overwhelmingly chaotic evil as a society. There's a lot more drow than there are opportunities for Lantern Bearers to seek their redemption, and cultural inertia alone ensures that success stories will be rarer than the reverse. The point there is that drow are not genetically or inherently evil, and are just as capable of good as any other mortal being. ^_^

LOL Most of what you said could be said about goblins... ;)


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Not invalid, I'll grant. And of course, if they can pull it off, why can't drow? In fact, goblins should have an easier time of it - among other things, they're much more likely to be exposed to good-aligned philosophies than the insular drow. ^_^


Isabelle Lee wrote:
Not invalid, I'll grant. And of course, if they can pull it off, why can't drow? In fact, goblins should have an easier time of it - among other things, they're much more likely to be exposed to good-aligned philosophies than the insular drow. ^_^

I don't think there would be much of a difference. Goblins aren't overly concerned with other cultures and don't regularly interact with non-evil creatures. Where the off goblin might meet a good/neutral adventurer so too could a drow find a Svirfneblin or adventurer [above while of raid or below ground] or even a slave: where a drow would likely try to capture and find out about another creature, thus getting the opportunity to learn about good-aligned philosophies, a goblin is more likely to set them of fire and/or eat them... :P

So a goblin might have more opportunities to meet people with good-aligned philosophies, I think a drow has a much better chance to have a meaningful interaction that would allow them to learn about the philosophies. Goblins aren't exactly known for scintillating debates on philosophy and morality, or really any intellectual pursuit.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:
Not invalid, I'll grant. And of course, if they can pull it off, why can't drow? In fact, goblins should have an easier time of it - among other things, they're much more likely to be exposed to good-aligned philosophies than the insular drow. ^_^

I don't think there would be much of a difference. Goblins aren't overly concerned with other cultures and don't regularly interact with non-evil creatures. Where the off goblin might meet a good/neutral adventurer so too could a drow find a Svirfneblin or adventurer [above while of raid or below ground] or even a slave: where a drow would likely try to capture and find out about another creature, thus getting the opportunity to learn about good-aligned philosophies, a goblin is more likely to set them of fire and/or eat them... :P

So a goblin might have more opportunities to meet people with good-aligned philosophies, I think a drow has a much better chance to have a meaningful interaction that would allow them to learn about the philosophies. Goblins aren't exactly known for scintillating debates on philosophy and morality, or really any intellectual pursuit.

You could reverse that with the Drow setting people on fire and eating them and the Goblin capturing people to study and it wouldn't be out of place, it equally applies to both. If anything Goblins have a better chance of being Non-Evil in this line of thought since they're more likely to wander off from their society and survive. The Darklands are not a tourist destination.

There are Evil societies, but there is no such thing as innately Evil Humanoids, even back in 1st.


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Rysky wrote:
You could reverse that with the Drow setting people on fire and eating them and the Goblin capturing people to study and it wouldn't be out of place, it equally applies to both.

No, you really can't and stay inside the setting. Drow have a history of capturing slaves and goblins have a history of pyromania and eating PC races: these are objective fact built into the world.

Rysky wrote:
If anything Goblins have a better chance of being Non-Evil in this line of thought since they're more likely to wander off from their society and survive. The Darklands are not a tourist destination.

You have to look no further than Surface Infiltrator from Advanced Race Guide, "Some drow dwell close to the surface lands, either because they serve drow causes or they were exiled." As I said above, the drow most likely has a much greater chance for a meaningful encounter while the goblin has a better chance to just have an encounter.

Rysky wrote:
There are Evil societies, but there is no such thing as innately Evil Humanoids, even back in 1st.

I didn't say there were or implied it as far as I know. That of course has little bearing on people's perceptions in the actual world and is more a philosophical question for them: from the setting, background and history, any non-mindless creature in existence can figure out a goblin burns things for fun, eats PC races and a gamut of other unpleasant things*. A drow is going to be more of a mystery and unknown factor and, IMO, more likely to be seen as intelligent and able to communicate in a constructive way that goblins just aren't known for. Even if you know a drow is evil, they aren't going to set the area on fire because of a racal insanity while you're talking to them...

What it boils down to is I see both races as equally rare options. I wouldn't expect piles of either race to start showing up in ANY measurable amount in any place in the setting as currently presented and we've been told not much is happening between editions: Drow because of starting local limits numbers above ground and goblins... well because they are goblins and everyone knows what they do and how they act.

* [base dc 5 moster knowledge check means a take 10 from an intellegence 1 creature makes a roll vs a goblin]

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
graystone wrote:
No, you really can't and stay inside the setting. Drow have a history of capturing slaves and goblins have a history of pyromania and eating PC races: these are objective fact built into the world.
Yes you can. Do you think Drow are super sweet and benevolent towards their slaves or that Goblins never capture anyone?
graystone wrote:
You have to look no further than Surface Infiltrator from Advanced Race Guide, "Some drow dwell close to the surface lands, either because they serve drow causes or they were exiled." As I said above, the drow most likely has a much greater chance for a meaningful encounter while the goblin has a better chance to just have an encounter.
"Some Drow", whereas all goblins live on the surface next to other communities usually.
graystone wrote:
I didn't say there were or implied it as far as I know. That of course has little bearing on people's perceptions in the actual world and is more a philosophical question for them: from the setting, background and history, any non-mindless creature in existence can figure out a goblin burns things for fun, eats PC races and a gamut of other unpleasant things*.
After watching them for a long time maybe, but it would depend on the goblin community and specific goblin.
graystone wrote:
A drow is going to be more of a mystery and unknown factor and,
You just advocated that we know everything about every goblin and they're all the same via Knowledge checks... but we're suddenly not allowed to make them against Drow?
graystone wrote:
IMO, more likely to be seen as intelligent and able to communicate in a constructive way that goblins just aren't known for.
1) Why? 2) The Bestiaries are completely stuffed with creatures that are intelligent and can engage in constructive conversation and will gladly kill you dead.
graystone wrote:
Even if you know a drow is evil, they aren't going to set the area on fire because of a racal insanity while you're talking to them...
They might, depends on the Drow. Is goblins love of fire called a racial insanity in the books?
graystone wrote:
What it boils down to is I see both races as equally rare options. I wouldn't expect piles of either race to start showing up in ANY measurable amount in any place in the setting as currently presented and we've been told not much is happening between editions: Drow because of starting local limits numbers above ground and goblins... well because they are goblins and everyone knows what they do and how they act.

Goblin societies build up and fall apart rapidly due to explosive breeding and constant adventuring from adventures.

I do find it peculiar the stance that all goblins, every single one, are exactly the same and will always act the same predictable way whereas every single other creature in existence (barring Fiends) has to be witnessed to doing something bad and then in that case it's only on that specific one, not the entire species.


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The Advanced Race Guide, as a somewhat older system-neutral book, also behaves rather oddly in regards to Golarion's worldbuilding. Look at the original age tables conflicting with Adventure Path plots.


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Rysky wrote:
Yes you can. Do you think Drow are super sweet and benevolent towards their slaves or that Goblins never capture anyone?

No, you really can't... Drows aren't nice but when they capture someone they actually communicate with them: a goblin enjoys eating intelligent humanoids, and are ALWAYS hungry, so... I'm not seeing the learning from a goblin.

Rysky wrote:
"Some Drow", whereas all goblins live on the surface next to other communities usually.

Did you miss my explanation? Goblins have a greater chance for an encounter while a drow has a better chance to have an encounter that actually matters for this conversation.

Rysky wrote:
After watching them for a long time maybe, but it would depend on the goblin community and specific goblin.

Not really. As common creatures, there is NO need to watch them: it's a DC 5 to find out info of goblins in general. Smart animals know goblins are pyromaniacs.

Rysky wrote:
You just advocated that we know everything about every goblin and they're all the same via Knowledge checks... but we're suddenly not allowed to make them against Drow?

You don't seem to understand how the knowledge skill works. Goblins are called out as common, so a DC 5 + level: an auto made roll on a take ten untrained. Knowledge of Drow are called out as rare as a certain group attempts to keep it out of circulation. As such, it's a DC 15 check, something a take 10 doesn't make and requires a TRAINED knowledge local check to make. This is literally an apples vs orange situation.

Rysky wrote:
1) Why? 2) The Bestiaries are completely stuffed with creatures that are intelligent and can engage in constructive conversation and will gladly kill you dead.

Because I read the info on goblins: the bestiaries, the race section, the Golarion specific info. That's the way the setting presents them. Goblins are more interested in how you taste than your philosophy.

Rysky wrote:
They might, depends on the Drow. Is goblins love of fire called a racial insanity in the books?

AS an individual, you'd have a point but I'm talking as a race. The background comes out and says that goblins AS A RACE have an insanity called pyromania. They say AS A RACE they like eating gnomes and humans. It's not presented as a predisposition but goblins "consider the flesh of humans and gnomes a rare and difficult-to-obtain delicacy" and "Crazy pyromaniacs with a tendency to commit unspeakable violence, goblins are the smallest of the goblinoid races." These just aren't presented as tendencies but as what goblins are.

Rysky wrote:
I do find it peculiar the stance that all goblins, every single one, are exactly the same and will always act the same predictable way whereas every single other creature in existence (barring Fiends) has to be witnessed to doing something bad and then in that case it's only on that specific one, not the entire species.

That's NOT the stance at all: there can be unique individuals. The issue with goblins is that the DC is so low that literally everyone in existence knows what the expected behaviour of them are. As such, they have to prove they aren't like 'normal' goblins and normal goblins are so awful they are "view them as virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate".

Then inner sea races says "No one truly likes goblins—not even other goblins. Most races consider them pests to be driven off or hunted." Heck, "dwarves hunt goblins for sport." Or, "Ultimately, only other goblinoids tolerate goblins for very long, and even then only just."

Isabelle Lee wrote:
The Advanced Race Guide, as a somewhat older system-neutral book

Inner sea races doesn't paint them much better. "Humans and other races have made repeated, concentrated efforts to wipe out goblins once and for all" and "their racial pyromania instead seems inspired by the beauty and wanton destruction fire provides."

I mean there is a section called "fire good!" that states "Goblins use flame to fell trees, clear rubble, torture animals, and play scarring games, as well as to light swathes of woodland or field aflame so they can pick at any deliciously charred creatures caught in the blaze. Goblins rush into battle welding torches as often as blades, and the sight of burned farms is a reliable indicator that local goblin tribes are raiding again."

As to learning from a good philosophy, there is this from that book too: "Goblins lack any capacity for organization or planning, or even recalling much of the past. They rarely learn from encounters, and rush blindly toward their next goal with the impatience of children" and "Generally behaving like a cross between wild baboons and schoolyard bullies, goblins whiplash between curious frolicking and wanton destruction, playing cruel pranks on their foes and each other. By their reckoning, most of the world is too big and frustratingly complex to bother playing by anyone else’s rules. Instead, the frivolous creatures bring suffering wherever they tread: sowing chaos, stealing whatever fills their bellies, and indulging their short attention spans."

Even pulling out the Goblins of Golarion, "Goblins are first and foremost villains. They may be comical on some level, but they’re also quite evil. Goblins enjoy inflicting misery and causing pain, and a goblin who doesn’t isn’t truly a goblin—he’s some sort of freak’s freak."


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I was thinking primarily about the drow section. The drow of Golarion don't seem to care much about surface or the elves on it (unlike the Forgotten Realms' sacrifice-hungry drow), so stuff like Surface Infiltrator doesn't make nearly as much sense. Spider Summoner is even more blatantly Lolthian in nature, as the drow of Golarion (Mazmezz cultists notwithstanding) have zero ties to spiders beyond fleshwarping spitting out their disgraced as half-spider monsters with Blizzard-tier sexual dimorphism.

The goblin section is, admittedly, way more Paizo. I guess how much you care about the rebranding probably comes down to how much you hate the idea of goblins in Core. I don't have particularly strong feelings on the topic, but that's just me. ^_^


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Isabelle Lee: Yeah, I was mostly looking at Goblins, but Golarion only stuff still mentions adventurers that venture beyond the drow lands and elves that spontaneously transform into drow so it seems like drow could pop up just about anywhere.

Spider summoner: Doesn't seem overtly Lolthian as spidersilk and spider items like spiderdraw are still in Golarion and still thematically/environmentally appropriate.

Surface Infiltrator: "Great Houses also mount occasional slavecatching expedition’s much farther abroad" + "Occasionally, when a demonic patron
needs its agenda furthered somewhere on Golarion, it calls upon the aid of drow servants. Most such agents are young, ambitious women" + "Rituals usually revolve around blood sacrifice and practiced recitations, though occasionally a demon will ask its drow worshipers to fulfill some part of its obscure agenda on Golarion" + "They seldom journeys to Orv or the surface". Taken together it seems like the trait is still workable using just Golarion material.: while rare, drow are sent or flee to the surface or transform there.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

With the new free heritages being handed out in the 1.4 update, I hope Drow are a selectable heritage.

Yes I know it’ll be a life change to have more common Drow, but I’m fine with that. Second Darkness came and went and Drow are no longer a big secret. Maybe some Drow don’t want to be bound to demon kind. Or maybe some Drow are given a mandate to spread some demonic influence to the surface and upon reaching the surface realise maybe being evil isn’t all that great, the surface world has crepes, and music and you’re not constantly under the threat of having your body warped beyond recognition for failure or disobedience. Maybe Drow realise their ancestors made some difficult but ultimately bad decisions, and while they’re grateful to have survived the Age of Darkness, they don’t feel like they should pay for the sins of their ancestors with endless bondage to demonkind.

I dunno, all I know is that playing Drizzt is fun for some players and the harder people roll their eyes at it, the more suspicious I am of cynicism and “you’re doing fun wrong” attitudes.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Also I don’t see having goblins, Drow and orcs in the core rules as incompatible. Having all three in core would make for a really interesting “horde” themed adventuring party. Could also mean we can run adventure paths in areas that aren’t assumed to be populated by humans.
A goblin, a Drow, and an orc walk into a bar in Belkzen...


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

With the new free heritages being handed out in the 1.4 update, I hope Drow are a selectable heritage.

That was my first thought upon hearing it live from the stream.

Fingers crossed until Monday!

Fell magic made it with Fell Gnomes (apparently) and this is in addition of Goblins getting in the CRB in the first place.
It shows Paizo isn't too adverse to PC options that do not immediately relate to the stereotypical adventurer.
So, maybe there's hope?

In any case, I welcome the addition of heritage feats because it means I can easily homebrew a Drow heritage if it doesn't make it into the CRB, without having to come up with a completely new ancestry in the process.

This means I am far less likely to make up something overpowered or underpowered by building on the elf chassis and simply adding a new heritage feat to the mix.

Silver Crusade

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If Goblin fans get Goblins I think we could allow full orcs and drow ^^
Though I have played to much WoW to call myself neutral when it comes to this issue ^^


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Oh, Drow as a race are still vicious, dangerous, duplicitous, and various other villain-appropriate things ending in -ous. And going by Starfinder, the majority of Drow will likely remain like that.

But "all Drow are evil down to the last one" hasn't been a things for several years. Blood of Shadows from 2016 even gave them a Paladin favorite class bonus.


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So Cavern Elves are a thing now.
Just missing the drow feat lines...


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Ediwir wrote:
So Cavern Elves are a thing now.

Three elves walk into a bar.

Now there are bar elves.

Caiden should be happy.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
So Cavern Elves are a thing now.

Three elves walk into a bar.

Now there are bar elves.

Caiden should be happy.

You know the stronghold dwarf that gets the poison resistance should really be a bar dwarf. They built up their resistance to poison through a lifetime of heavy drinking!


Ediwir wrote:
So Cavern Elves are a thing now. Just missing the drow feat lines...

Shared Darklands heritage of Drow and Jinin is not really a new thing for Golarion.

I don't know if they would actually just build Drow using this Heritage, or if they would have their own Drow Heritage.

Actually,
Gnome Bleachling Heritage is already precedent for Heritages being mutable under specific conditions, which could be approach for Drow Transformation.


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I believe they'll likely add Drow as a separate Ancestry altogether, so their feats can remain separate. So far no feat builds on Heritage as a requirement.


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It feels like "if you want to be a Drow PC for non-power-gamey reasons" then Cavern Elf + Backstory should be sufficient.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
It feels like "if you want to be a Drow PC for non-power-gamey reasons" then Cavern Elf + Backstory should be sufficient.

And maybe just nab an innate arcane spell with your level 1 feat?

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