Does anyone like resonance and why?


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Grand Lodge

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Soullos wrote:
Culach wrote:
Bombs: Should never cost resonance, these are the Alchemists primary weapons and the equivalent of Wizard cantrips which also do not cost resonance. If you want to charge resonance for Bombs, put a limit on Cantrips too.
I believe bombs don't cost resonance to use. They don't have the "Operate Activation" which require RP like other magic items and alchemical items do.

Both Quick Alchemy and Quick Bomber refer to crafting bombs during combat requiring resonance. Even Advanced Alchemy refers to creating Alchemical Items as requiring 1 resonance.

Once the bomb is MADE it costs no resonance to use. Unfortunately the fact that MAKING them costs a resonance is one of the things putting Alchemists so far behind the spell-casting classes.


I like the system but not for potions or elixirs, wands and everything else are fine. But they way they made restoring HP via rest (you only heal your level+con) is ridiculous and so we should be allowed to guzzle potions to bring that back up without repercussions.


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The idea had merit, but the execution was clearly tailored to "fixing" a problem that wasn't really a problem and actually allowed more flexibility in party makeup (wand of cure light wounds), and if it was a problem was problem with the system's math (low level healing spells are more GP efficient) and not how magic items worked.


Culach wrote:

Both Quick Alchemy and Quick Bomber refer to crafting bombs during combat requiring resonance. Even Advanced Alchemy refers to creating Alchemical Items as requiring 1 resonance.

Once the bomb is MADE it costs no resonance to use. Unfortunately the fact that MAKING them costs a resonance is one of the things putting Alchemists so far behind the spell-casting classes.

Ok, I misread what you wrote. I thought you were talking about using bombs already crafted. Yeah, for Quick Alchemy or using Advanced Alchemy it does cost RP to make them, which is a problem. I'm surprised they don't cost Spell points like other classes. At least it doesn't cost RP to craft bombs during downtime with the Craft skill, but yeah not much of a consolation prize...


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I think Resonance might be best used as a sort of ‘mana’ system that replaces and encompasses both Spell Points and Resonance. It would need to have extra points available, though, and I think the most important part should be that items come pre-charged with their own mana. So that Cloak of Elvenkind? Maybe it takes 1 Mana for the passive ability, and 2 to activate the Invisibility, but when you equip it you get 3 mana points added to your base. Obviously, you need some sort of cap (maybe your CHA score) for the number of items you can have equipped at a time, but I think that some variation of Mana would work wonders. The real key is that every time something would cost mana to use, it also adds mana to your pool, this giving you one or two ‘free’ uses before it starts using your limited innate amount.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Alchemy is the only real problem I have with Resonance. If they stripped Resonance out of alchemy entirely I'd be completely happy with the chassis (specifics like Bags of Holding not so much.)

Alchemy in general should provide consumables that are slightly weaker than their magical counterpart but cost no Resonance. You've got your Elixers of Life for top ups and you Potions of Healing for in a pinch.

The Alchemist should have an independent free crafting pool equal to their Intelligence modifier + Level (multiclass alchemist would just get the Int mod part of this.) This way Charisma is still useful for them and their creations are competing with their magic items. Finally any Class Features that apply to alchemical items should apply to all alchemical items the Alchemist uses, not just those he creates with class features.

Scarab Sages

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Does anyone like resonance and why?

I like it.

It's abstractly the new UMD. It causes munchkins to get upset. They are so use to dump stating Charisma, now you can't just throw away charisma so easily. The designers made it so every ability is pretty well balanced and sacrificing certain abilities has interesting repercussions.


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I like Resonance.

Here is why - I like the idea of a reason for Charisma to be more than a dump stat. Which, in PF1, if you weren't a caster that used it, or a Swashbuckler, it totally was.

Not only that but I like the idea that magical items and potions use your Resonance, internal magical energy, to fuel them. This also helps explain why Sorcerers use Charisma. Charisma is the link to the internal natural resonance which helps to fuel that special spark that makes someone naturally charismatic.


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I do like the idea of resonance. I just strongly dislike it's implementation.

The part I like about resonance is the idea that it restricts the number of magic items you can have equipped on one day. I like this because it means as a GM I can hand out magic items more freely, because they'll be limited by how many they can use anyway. I don't like the side-effect that when you find a magic item you cannot use it until the next day though. I would be open to spending an hour to reinvest your resonance from one item and into another item. But then you'd remove the point of resonance.

The problem with how resonance has been implemented is it's trying to do too much at once. It's trying to remove tracking of X times per day magic items and it's trying to limit consumables.

I think resonance could be improved dramatically be having it purely be about how many permanent magic items you can invest in (and yes, allow alchemists to quickly make free consumables). Once it stops being used for wand charges and potions I think you'll find a lot of the problems with resonance go away.

So how would I handle wands? Same way that D&D 5e does. Let them recover them 1d8+3 charges per day and the most charges they can hold is 16. It perfectly achieves the result Paizo says it wants with resonance and wands (people will use level appropriate wands and not buy wands of heal 1 by the dozen), it means you don't need to increase the amount of resonance (except perhaps for alchemists, or just give alchemists spell points).


Paradozen wrote:

I like resonance conceptually in almost every regard.

I like some of how it has been implemented.
I don't like the system as a whole yet.

First, some consumables shouldn't use it at all. Spending a resonance point to activate a tindertwig is just painful. The item has almost no uses beyond being cool. Leave this out of the resonance system entirely. Other alchemical tools have similar issues, they aren't useful enough to really need the resonance limiter, and they aren't fantastical enough to really justify it IMO.

Second, for consumables that should use it, not all should use it equally. I'd like the system much more if some consumables used resonance at a more favorable ratio. Mechanics would be a bit wonky, but I'd like to see elixirs at 1 point for 4 elixirs, weapons and remedies at 1 for 3 weapons/remedies, magic item consumables at 2:1, and magic items that aren't consumable being the only things that have 1:1 (with investment staying the same). That way, loading up on consumables doesn't have the issue it did in the last edition, but using consumables isn't as harsh and adventuring days are a bit longer, and PCs are still encouraged to invest in relatively on-level gear instead of just stocking up on gallons of level 1 healing elixirs and selling higher level ones to get more low-level ones.

Third, alchemist needs something alchemy-based to do when resonance and items run out. Right now I'm stocking up on oil flasks just to keep with the idea of throwing molotovs instead of falling back on a crossbow. Martials that fallback on a weapon is fine, they are thematically weapon-based. Casters all have spell points for a little while, and after that they get cantrips, they don't need to default to attacks that don't fit a broad "magic" theme. Alchemists do have to fall back on nonmagical items.

So, turns out they already fixed the issue with alchemical tools/remedies largely, tindertwigs and antiplagues/toxins and a lot of similar utility items being no cost. Same with alchemical weapons. Only issue left is that the only class that really wants to rely on those items still has resonance or gold taxed to get them. And elixir healing is still resonance-taxed.


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Here’s my problem with the “Resonance fixes Cha as a dump stat!” arguement.

There is no such thing as a dump stat in PF2. Unless you’re a dwarf (which should be naturally decent at magic items anyway from a lore perspective) or decide to willingly handicap yourself, you’ll never have a CHA modifier in the negatives. And you definitely won’t gain anything from a lower score.


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Luceon wrote:

Does anyone like resonance and why?

I like it.

It's abstractly the new UMD. It causes munchkins to get upset. They are so use to dump stating Charisma, now you can't just throw away charisma so easily. The designers made it so every ability is pretty well balanced and sacrificing certain abilities has interesting repercussions.

You know, except for Strength. Oh, and Intelligence. Strength is basically completely useless for some classes (I'm looking at you, Rogue); and Intelligence is the de-facto dump stat* since it does bloody nothing after first level.

Also, Resonance isn't the new UMD. Trick Magic Item is the new UMD. Resonance is just a patch-job because the designers didn't like people spamming CLW wands.

*Dump Stat in the PF2 "Why would I ever raise this?" sense, not the PF1 "I'll lower this in point buy to get a better stat elsewhere" sense.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, in my games social skills are borderline OP because talking your way out of a situation, getting help from people in the world around you, or convincing someone of something are obscenely useful abilities.

There's always an opportunity for a party member to have an important role in a conversation, and the party isn't three mutes hiding behind one smooth talker. Think about how weird that would be in real life. You'd think you were dealing with some kind of sketchy criminal outfit.

Then there was Use Magic Device which was based on Charisma, and universally considered one of the God Skills, but simultaneously not a reason to avoid dumping charisma?

Then people fight tooth an nail for Wizards and Rogues to have the right to be able to outright ignore Strength.

I simply do not buy that Charisma needs propping up. If you're not having your players make social checks, that's on you. It'd be like playing a game with no will save checks or perception checks and arguing Wisdom needs to be buffed.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
The part I like about resonance is the idea that it restricts the number of magic items you can have equipped on one day. I like this because it means as a GM I can hand out magic items more freely, because they'll be limited by how many they can use anyway. I don't like the side-effect that when you find a magic item you cannot use it until the next day though. I would be open to spending an hour to reinvest your resonance from one item and into another item. But then you'd remove the point of resonance.

You know, I was actually toying a bit with making Resonance function like the Occultist's Focus points. Maybe throw in a general feat to allow characters to re-allocate their points, and I had a few (admittedly janky) ideas on what extra expenditure into a given magic item would result in.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
The part I like about resonance is the idea that it restricts the number of magic items you can have equipped on one day. I like this because it means as a GM I can hand out magic items more freely, because they'll be limited by how many they can use anyway.

I agree that this goal is a decent one from a game design perspective, and would greatly help new GMs. If Resonance were only used to limit equipped items, I could begrudgingly accept it as part of the game and easily ignore or boost it in my home games if I want more flexibility.


Kodyboy wrote:
I find resonance an unnecessary completely and pointless. Anyone else?

I'm OK with there being some limit on the amount of times you are healed in a day, by CLW wands for example. But I am also OK with PF1.

But really, I'm OK with a solution as simple as your Max hp drops by 1 hp every time you are healed each day.

I think Resonance is too stingy right now, the calculation should be more like:
4+Level+Chr mod

Maybe even higher. Sucks having a magic item and not being able to use or activate it.


The other thing I like about Resonance is it gives Charisma a use:
* Strength - Useful if you want to deal the most damage in the game with weapons.
* Dexterity - Good for Reflex
* Constitution - Good for HP and Fort saves
* Intelligence - Get extra trained skills
* Wisdom - Will saves and perception
* Charisma - Good for resonance

Would you rather boost dex for +1 AC? Or wear slightly heavier armor and boost CHA to give you that extra point of resonance?


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Dαedαlus wrote:

Here’s my problem with the “Resonance fixes Cha as a dump stat!” arguement.

There is no such thing as a dump stat in PF2. Unless you’re a dwarf (which should be naturally decent at magic items anyway from a lore perspective) or decide to willingly handicap yourself, you’ll never have a CHA modifier in the negatives. And you definitely won’t gain anything from a lower score.

"Charisma is a dump stat" oversimplifies the issue. In Pathfinder 2nd Edition without a general use for Charisma, the dump stat problem will be that if Charisma is not 16 or 18, then it will be 8 or 10. We will never see Charisma 12 or 14.

In Pathfinder 1st Edition, Charisma is an all-or-nothing stat. No-one accuses bards, sorcerers, or oracles of dumping Charisma because it is their primary casting stat. Paladins get plenty of benefit from Charisma. And some rogues like to play the party face, i.e., the person who talks with good Bluff or Diplomacy checks to smooth interactions with townsfolk and rulers.

But social skills are the only use for Charisma in PF1 outside of class features. And usually only one person needs to be good at social skills. The problem arises with a group bluff, like the party traveling in disguise as merchants. One good bluffer and three terrible bluffers are a recipe for accidental disclosure, because often a guard or stablehand has a good reason to talk to the wrong person. Likewise for Diplomacy in a socially risky situation. "You said WHAT to the ambassador's wife?!"

My social adventures would go more smoothly if the party had a few medium-Charisma characters with CHA 12 or 14. They would be good enough to continue the deception or diplomacy without being good enough to start the deception or diplomacy. They could talk to townsfolk and gather informaton due to reasons that are not related to being extremely charming, "I have a Blacksmith background, so I will talk to the town blacksmith."

Instead, if my players are not playing the party face, their characters often default to the loner, the nerd, the uncouth warrior, or several other stereotypes that don't talk to other people. Sometimes even the sorcerers don't spend their few skill points on social skills and don't talk to people either, but PF2 has a new skill system that will reduce that problem.


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Mathmuse wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Here’s my problem with the “Resonance fixes Cha as a dump stat!” arguement.

There is no such thing as a dump stat in PF2. Unless you’re a dwarf (which should be naturally decent at magic items anyway from a lore perspective) or decide to willingly handicap yourself, you’ll never have a CHA modifier in the negatives. And you definitely won’t gain anything from a lower score.

"Charisma is a dump stat" oversimplifies the issue. In Pathfinder 2nd Edition without a general use for Charisma, the dump stat problem will be that if Charisma is not 16 or 18, then it will be 8 or 10. We will never see Charisma 12 or 14.

In Pathfinder 1st Edition, Charisma is an all-or-nothing stat. No-one accuses bards, sorcerers, or oracles of dumping Charisma because it is their primary casting stat. Paladins get plenty of benefit from Charisma. And some rogues like to play the party face, i.e., the person who talks with good Bluff or Diplomacy checks to smooth interactions with townsfolk and rulers.

But social skills are the only use for Charisma in PF1 outside of class features. And usually only one person needs to be good at social skills. The problem arises with a group bluff, like the party traveling in disguise as merchants. One good bluffer and three terrible bluffers are a recipe for accidental disclosure, because often a guard or stablehand has a good reason to talk to the wrong person. Likewise for Diplomacy in a socially risky situation. "You said WHAT to the ambassador's wife?!"

My social adventures would go more smoothly if the party had a few medium-Charisma characters with CHA 12 or 14. They would be good enough to continue the deception or diplomacy without being good enough to start the deception or diplomacy. They could talk to townsfolk and gather informaton due to reasons that are not related to being extremely charming, "I have a Blacksmith background, so I will talk to the town blacksmith."

Instead, if my players are not playing the party face, their...

I mean, in PF1, Charisma 12/14 means...basically nothing. If your characters didn't invest in the appropiate skills, they're still useless. If they're all trying to bluff, then a +1/+2 won't mean a thing, they're still fishing for a high number on the roll. So I'm not entirely sure what you mean, honestly.

You could leave Charisma at 10 or even 08 and still be good at social skills as long as you invested in them. But if you didn't invest in them you'd never be good at it, not even passable, no matter what your Charisma was.

And this is mostly still true in PF2, by the way. Without resonance there's really not a lot of incentive to take your Charisma above 10. Going Trained in the skills is probably a good idea because you get rid of the -2, but even at mid levels an Untrained Cha 10 guy is throwing +8 at the relevant uses. And of the Charisma related skills, only Deception and Performance have a Trained Only use. And Performance's Trained Use is just substituting for Lore to earn money.

So the party face still has incentive to keep the skill up (mostly a few of the feats), but the rest? They have even less incentive than before. The skill goes up no matter what they do. No reason to ever bother with it, or Charisma, beyond Resonance.


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While you can't "dump stats" like in PF1, you can still choose not to invest anything in Charisma, so it's good to give value to Charisma.

Like I was theorycrafting a few characters yesterday and I found that once my dex was capped for the armor I want to use, the 4th attribute bonus on level up was likely best spent on charisma (spend the other ones on your main stat, and wis, and con). Bumping Cha from 10 to 12 at level 5 or 10 qualifies you for the general feat which gives 2 more resonance, too.

Charisma is now at worst the 4th best stat for almost all characters (probably not monks), which is much better than its former position of 6th or 1st.


Add me to the "love the idea, the details need work" crowd. I think it's great to give Charisma a bit of crunch, and not make it the easy crap stat. I like the idea that magic items having some flavor to them beyond "push to use".

What feels wrong to me is:

  • Charging resonance for consumables like potions and elixirs. Especially for healing potions: I am in battle and my hit points are dropping and I have this thing I bought but maybe I can't use it to save my life. No, thank you.
  • Charging resonance for items that make the game playable. The bag of holding is the obvious example here. You're in a Paizo AP and there's a dungeon crawl four or five levels deep, and all the treasure is armor and weapons and jewelry and whatnot. How do you get it out? You either completely ignore realism, or you use a bag of holding. Under current rules, the latter means you leave everything where it is, and backtrack later to collect it all in one place so you don't burn your resonance opening the bag more than once. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? If this doesn't change we will house rule it away, I guarantee it.
  • Fiddly resource tracking. A superset of the previous bullet, basically anywhere that using an item and tracking investing and activation creates unnecessary bookkeeping and an added burden on the GM ("You didn't declare that you invested your item" issues, and the loss of quick/easy resource sharing)

Edited to add:

Also, the system is fussy enough that you wonder how everyday people in Golarion use magic items to do their jobs. Magic items aren't rare in Golarion. They are, by and large, a substitute for technology. The system is targeted at adventuring, but in the process it's kind of cratering society.


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TheFinish wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Here’s my problem with the “Resonance fixes Cha as a dump stat!” arguement.

There is no such thing as a dump stat in PF2. Unless you’re a dwarf (which should be naturally decent at magic items anyway from a lore perspective) or decide to willingly handicap yourself, you’ll never have a CHA modifier in the negatives. And you definitely won’t gain anything from a lower score.

"Charisma is a dump stat" oversimplifies the issue. In Pathfinder 2nd Edition without a general use for Charisma, the dump stat problem will be that if Charisma is not 16 or 18, then it will be 8 or 10. We will never see Charisma 12 or 14.

...

I mean, in PF1, Charisma 12/14 means...basically nothing. If your characters didn't invest in the appropiate skills, they're still useless. If they're all trying to bluff, then a +1/+2 won't mean a thing, they're still fishing for a high number on the roll. So I'm not entirely sure what you mean, honestly.

...

Yes, that is the way Charisma is in PF1. Charisma 12/14 does mean basically nothing. Other attributes have uses in the 12 to 14 range. Look at John Lynch 106 's list. Every little bit of Strength adds to damage, every little bit of Constitution adds to hit points, every little bit of Intelligence adds to skills, every little bit of Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom adds to saving throws. But for the social skills based on Charisma, a little bit seldom helps. If a character does not have a very good bonus to social skills, then that character had best stay silent and never use his or her Charisma bonus.

And in the long run in PF1 increasing Intelligence by 2 increases social skills more than increasing Charisma by 2, because a boost to Charisma gives a fixed +1 to each social skill but a boost to Intelligence gives one more skill point per level that can be distributed to the social skills.

Resonance fixes this gap in Charisma statistics. And that is what "Charisma won't be a dump stat" means in PF2. A player could chose to have Charisma 12 instead of bumping up some other stat, because one more resonance could be worth using the ability score boost.


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I love resonance as a concept for wands, staves, flinging fire from a sword, etc. Having magical items which allow inner power to be channeled is a cool and fun idea.

I strongly dislike that this system as it currently stands turned into an overarching mechanic with a one-size-fits all element to it.


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since, personally, I never used CHA as a dump stat, because..roleplay and the CLW spam is a fringe problem at best that I've only read about on this forum from people who swear it exists, but never witnessed myself in 18 years of 3.0, Resonances fixes nothing for me and is just one useless rule that hopefully won't make it in the finished game


The idea is great, for me, but the implementation...

Also, I detest that To Hit and Weapon Damage is reliant on magic items.


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kaid wrote:


I think there has to be easier ways to fix the cure light wounds wand without causing so much collateral weirdness everywhere else because of it.

There sure is, don't hand the wands out in the first place.


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Here's my take. I've been playing for 45 years, GM for 40, when my players are screwing with the game play by item spamming,,, wait for it...
I STOPPED LETTING THEM FIND THOSE ITEMS!!! After all it's kind of hard to quaff your 10th potion of the day if the shop only had 4. Same applies to wands and such " you loot the enemy mage and find a wand of cure light, it was a hard fight though and there are only 10 charges left, use them wisely."


I like the concept of Resonance but not the current implementation. The most recent blog post on the subject was enlightening, they were trying to address too many design goals with one mechanic.

As for why I like Resonance...

  • Simplified Bookkeeping: I love replacing charges and uses per day with a single pool of points.
  • Flexible Item Usage: Moving charges/uses from items to the player has the benefit of giving players more flexibility in how spend that resource.
  • Charisma: Makes CHA useful to all characters. If the Fighter decides to be the party face it's nice that they'll also get useful boost.
  • Item Slots:I like replacing item slots with another mechanic... Sometimes being covered in equipment doesn't really sync with a character concept - so it's nice to have the option to use item slots (ala resonance) in other ways. Not in love with how it's implemented in some cases here (e.g. a bag of holding should be invested in my opinion, not charged resonance by activation).

Some changes that I've seen mentioned and would like to see made...

  • Counts Up: Resonance counting up (rather than down) is more intuitive with the overspend mechanic.
  • Consumables: Consumables like potions shouldn't cost resonance.
  • Larger Pool: Characters should get more resonance than they do now. Especially Alchemists.
  • Invested/Activation: As noted, don't like that some items are activated rather than invested. Most prominent example is the bag of holding.


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Luceon wrote:

Does anyone like resonance and why?

I like it.

It's abstractly the new UMD. It causes munchkins to get upset. They are so use to dump stating Charisma, now you can't just throw away charisma so easily. The designers made it so every ability is pretty well balanced and sacrificing certain abilities has interesting repercussions.

Yes but to be clear;

Munchkins = Upset
Upset people ≠ Munchkins.

That aside, let's begin as to why I think it's a horrible system.

-Alchemist's class features all fight over it to the point you're better off focusing on one of them or possibly even none, existing to pass your items to people with Resonance or the Stats to ACTUALLY use them.

- CLW wands are dead hooray! OH and maybe a couple dozen spells that would work better as wands and not picked up for the day. Hello Hydraulic Push I see you're not around for this edition but you'd be way better as a wand than a spell unless you saw some HUGE buffs

- Limits and THE BEST. I'm sorry, I like the Christmas tree. I like finding odd or useful items that I can carry around with me and use when I want. Now, the designers expect me to pitch any odd ball item to the side and use the BEST. Because when we get to level X they'll expect me to have THE BEST for that level of the game. I'm behind if I don't have THE BEST because the math so clearly and easily shows what people should have at level X now. Oh you CAN carry around 10 rings and use any combo you want per day now but the devs will want you to use THE BEST because the math. And the community follows.

- No Cleric or Spells. So..., I guess you'll die now. Seriously especially early on you can run out of Resonance to heal with and back to town for you. Yeah you have 10 potions but the Fighter just flubbed his roll. What do you do?

- Alchemy ≠ Magic. OH WAIT! They moved Alchemist away from spell caster. Okay I'm mad about that. But okay fine. OH WAIT, a good number of Alchemy items still take Resonance like Magic items! So they are totally magic that isn't magic but still use magic resource because we need to limit magic non magic that magicaly buffs non magically from a magic resource for a non magicasodruasodfjoaj , brain.exe has locked up. Reboot Y/N?

Resonance feels bolted on to me at the end of the day. Not carefully designed to fix a problem. But a big padlock slapped on to stop 1 issue from getting out of control(CLW) and getting in the way of EVERYTHING else fun as well.


I love the resonance idea.

However it has no reason to be charisma based, it should be constitution based.


I like the idea of resonance replacing the slot system and limited use magic items.

My ideal would be something like:

All spell based items have resonance limited use maybe make resonance half lvl + Cha modifier or something. Resonance works for permanent magic items not consumables.

Staves provide boosts when using magic wands hold spells one resonance in one spell out.

Consumables are potions and alchemical items. They have no resonance costs but you can only benefit from 3+Con modifier potions ber day before they make you sick (so even over your limit a healing potion could save your life you would then just be sickened for the next hour or something). Bombs just work.

Maybe make scrolls still consume spell slots so basically it's a alternative spell you don't know/have prepared but not actually extra spells.

But all that's coming from a place where I don't really like consumables in PF DnD or even video games.


Whisperknives wrote:

I love the resonance idea.

However it has no reason to be charisma based, it should be constitution based.

Maybe for Potions and consumables. We could argue about how the Consitution of someone makes it to where they can withstand the magical energies flowing through them when it comes to Magic Cloak, boots, etc.

But then we get the weirdness that Wizards and crafters of magic gear can't really use it themselves. Not as much as their chosen champion that will use the gear.

I don't know what I would tie it to myself. Breaking it up in half(Potions to CON, rest to CHA) would maybe make sense but they probably don't want to split the pool like that.


MerlinCross wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:

I love the resonance idea.

However it has no reason to be charisma based, it should be constitution based.

Maybe for Potions and consumables. We could argue about how the Consitution of someone makes it to where they can withstand the magical energies flowing through them when it comes to Magic Cloak, boots, etc.

But then we get the weirdness that Wizards and crafters of magic gear can't really use it themselves. Not as much as their chosen champion that will use the gear.

I don't know what I would tie it to myself. Breaking it up in half(Potions to CON, rest to CHA) would maybe make sense but they probably don't want to split the pool like that.

Constitution based because it is a stat nobody will have an 18, bit also nobody should have an 8. your body has to be tough enough to take the magical strain.

Having it as a stat some classes use as primary but a dump for others is imbalanced.


I like resonance. It adds another level of strategy to the game, where choices have to be made on how to spend the points.


MerlinCross wrote:
- Alchemy ≠ Magic. OH WAIT! They moved Alchemist away from spell caster. Okay I'm mad about that. But okay fine. OH WAIT, a good number of Alchemy items still take Resonance like Magic items! So they are totally magic that isn't magic but still use magic resource because we need to limit magic non magic that magicaly buffs non magically from a magic resource for a non magicasodruasodfjoaj , brain.exe has locked up. Reboot Y/N?

I love the poetic gibberish of that paragraph. However, out of habit, I want to debug brain.exe.

The Pathfinder concept of the Alchemist was been contradictory from the beginning. Alchemists in Pathfinder 1st Edition cannot learn Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armor because they are not spellcasters, even though they have a caster level for making their extracts and potions. They don't even qualify for Brew Potion, the concept at the heart of their class; fortunately, they gain it as a class feature without qualifying for it.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition doubled down on ALCHEMISTS AREN'T CASTERS! Potions are not spells in liquid form anymore. They are full-fledged magic items like magic swords and feather tokens. A superstition-totem barbarian in your party will slap your bard silly because his Inspire Courage song is a cantrip which is a spell, and he is going to beat the cleric black and blue because the idiot cast area-of-effect Heal while he was in range, but he happily guzzles down potions from the alchemist because potions aren't spells and his superstitions only care about spells. Alchemists are a class that specializes in one kind of magic item, so of course they use resonance and they don't use spell points, because spell points are for casting spells (ignore that monk who would say otherwise of not for his vow of silence).

But if the game designers gave the alchemist enough resonance to use his potions, then he would have enough resonance to wear as many magic ornaments as a Christmas tree and be able to blast with a wand all day. Resonace opens the full power of magic items, except for those magic items so powerful that they need charges, too. So the designers painted the poor alchemist into a corner.


Whisperknives wrote:

]

Constitution based because it is a stat nobody will have an 18, bit also nobody should have an 8. your body has to be tough enough to take the magical strain.

Having it as a stat some classes use as primary but a dump for others is imbalanced.

So was CHA but that was okay before because reasons? Not saying you were okay with it being the dump stat.

With with how Lethal PF2 seems to be, I don't think CON is a dump stat by way of needing an extra HP to not get murdered by a Crit.

Mathmuse wrote:

I love the poetic gibberish of that paragraph. However, out of habit, I want to debug brain.exe.

The Pathfinder concept of the Alchemist was been contradictory from the beginning. Alchemists in Pathfinder 1st Edition cannot learn Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armor because they are not spellcasters, even though they have a caster level for making their extracts and potions. They don't even qualify for Brew Potion, the concept at the heart of their class; fortunately, they gain it as a class feature without qualifying for it.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition doubled down on ALCHEMISTS AREN'T CASTERS! Potions are not spells in liquid form anymore. They are full-fledged magic items like magic swords and feather tokens. A superstition-totem barbarian in your party will slap your bard silly because his Inspire Courage song is a cantrip which is a spell, and he is going to beat the cleric black and blue because the idiot cast area-of-effect Heal while he was in range, but he happily guzzles down potions from the alchemist because potions aren't spells and his superstitions only care about spells. Alchemists are a class that specializes in one kind of magic item, so of course they use resonance and they don't use spell points, because spell points are for casting spells (ignore that monk who would say otherwise of not for his vow of silence).

But if the game designers gave the alchemist enough resonance to use his potions, then he would have enough resonance to wear as many magic ornaments as a Christmas tree and be able to blast with a wand all day. Resonace opens the full power of magic items, except for those magic items so powerful that they need charges, too. So the designers painted the poor alchemist into a corner.

The frustration of the playtest and the forums does make me just want to mash my keyboard for no reason so I threw that in for myself. Anyway...

Outside of Brew Potion, this is a problem? We're casters but not full Casting. I've never had an issue with being only "Psudo Mage" when it comes to Alchemist. Either with effects or role playing, it doesn't bother me. I guess I have to say that yes it bothers other people but I don't know, I could get around that. Heck most my GMs let me feat buy Brew Potion if I trade it away and there's a Feat that lets you count as having Craft Magic Items/Armor/Weapons if your craft skill is high enough. We still have options if that's the issue.

PF2 Alchemist... isn't Alchemist either though. The items aren't spells in a bottle but are still MAGIC based. I would totally slap someone as a Superstition Barbarian because someone drinks a Healing potion and heals up, someone casts a heal spell and heals up, someone drinks a Tonic and heals up.... they're all magic. It takes a MAGIC based Resource in Resonance so why isn't it magic anymore? Because we say so when everything else that takes Resonance is Magic? So a Mutagen is or isn't JUST as Magical as using Cloak of Elven Kind? Or instert any other Magic based item. Alchemy isn't Alchemy because it's magic still, Paizo just removed our semi casting state.

But we seem to agree that Resonance for Alchemist seems like a VERY RAW deal. For a system that's supposed to show how good PF2 is going to be AND their Flagship class..., Paizo seems to have shot themselves in the foot. But that's starting to get more towards Alchemist discussion than Resonance.

I'll just leave off with "There's only 1 thing that Alchemist 2 does better than 1. That is Poison, the ONLY thing that doesn't make the class eat itself". And that's mainly because it doesn't eat into Resonance. Does it? Does Crafting Take Resonance? Hang on I need to check.


I'd like to see resonance become a mechanic which enhances items, rather than determines whether or not you can use them, and I would like to see it detached from consumables.

As far as the endless parade of sticks casting Cure Light Wounds goes, that's not a problem, that's a solution to the problem. The real problem is the lack of efficacious, efficient healing available to players, especially those who don't have a cleric whose sole function is healing. When your options are "burn charges on a wand" or "spend one or two days resting between every battle," of course you're going to prefer the wand.

People who crunched numbers have discovered that healing options in 2E are even less efficient. That's only going to exacerbate the real problem. "We need wands in order to alleviate the 15 minute adventure day" is not a problem to be solved with "fine, then you can only adventure five minutes!"

GreyWolfLord wrote:
I hear it affects Alchemist far more adversely though, but we haven't tried the alchemist yet soooo....

The alchemist has virtually no mechanics which do not consume resonance. Once they're out of resonance, they're worse than a spellcaster who's out of spell slots (the latter at least has cantrips). They don't have any fallback options that set them apart from some sort of NPC class like a Commoner.

An alchemist eventually does get an extra pool for resonance which can only be used for Quick Alchemy, but they still face limitations and constraints unlike any other class. A wizard doesn't cast Mage Armor and then realize they can no longer invest their Belt of Giant Strength, for example, whereas the alchemist who creates an extra Bestial Mutagen might have just overspent and will now be unable to utilize their equipment's powers.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Charisma is now at worst the 4th best stat for almost all characters (probably not monks), which is much better than its former position of 6th or 1st.

Monks get resonance-taxed for their Handwraps of Mighty Strikes, making them the only class who spends resonance to equip a magic weapon, so they're automatically out one point every day. That may or may not influence where they put their stat bonuses, but I thought it worth mentioning.

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