Potent Limitations


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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I'm not a fan of the fact that it's now only possible to bolster one attribute, and only by +2. I get not wanting everyone at 20th to have +6 on all stats, but I think there's a middle ground between "max bonus to everything" and "tiny bonus to one thing".

I really liked the way this was implemented in Starfinder. You could get a +6, a +4, and a +2, all had to be in different stats. This way, you could bolster a few attributes that mattered, but you couldn't go for the cheapest option on all of them, meaning you needed to make some decisions while still having several options.

I'd like to see that brought into this system. I think it would also aid in increasing the gap between very skilled and unskilled checks for PCs, which I currently see as too narrow.

Grand Lodge

I don't understand.

From the Alchemist Class on page 47:

Quote:

Ability Boosts 5th

At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, you boost four different ability scores. You can use these ability boosts to increase your ability scores above 18. Boosting an ability score increases it by 1 if it’s already 18 or above, or by 2 if it starts out below 18.

Every class has essentially the same entry at level 5.

That means the 4 attributes get a boost of +2 (+1 if 18 or above) every 5 levels. This would allow you to have at least 3 attributes at 18+, depending on your build.

If you are referencing something else, please explain the rule and give a page number so it can be looked at more in depth. I may have missed something.

Grand Lodge

Just thought I might provide an example with a human fighter to show what I mean:
.
.
.
.

1- STR 18/DEX 14/CON 14/INT 10/WIS 10/CHA 12

5- STR 19/DEX 16/CON 16/INT 10/WIS 10/CHA 14

10- STR 20/DEX 18/CON 18/INT 10/WIS 10/CHA 16

15- STR 21/DEX 18/CON 18/INT 12/WIS 12/CHA 18

20- STR 22/DEX 18/CON 18/INT 14/WIS 14/CHA 18

hmm...Seems I was wrong, you can get 4 attributes to 18+ over the course of the game... And your other stats aren't weak either.

Edit: Corrected numbers

Grand Lodge

Re-reading your OP I see you could have meant during character creation as well.

Thing is, each step of character creation (except class) allows for a +2 to at least 2 attributes.

Let's demo with that human fighter:

Ancestry: Human - gets 2 free attribute bumps of +2 each. Lets put them in STR and CON.

Background: Let's pick Blacksmith. Bump of +2 to two attributes, one of which must be STR or INT. Let's go with STR and DEX.

Freebies: At this point, you can place +2 in 4 attributes of your choosing. Let's go with STR, DEX, CON, and hmm CHA (for the resonance).

Class: You can place +2 in one Attribute, most likely your primary stat, in this case STR.

So lets add that up:

STR: 10 +2(ancestry) +2 (background) +2 (Freebie) +2 (class) = 18
DEX: 10 +2(Background) +2 Freebie = 14
CON: 10 +2(Ancestry) +2 freebie = 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10 +2(freebie) = 12

So that is an array of:
STR 18/DEX 14/CON 14/INT 10/WIS 10/CHA 12


Starfinder gave you the same inherent stat ups, but also let you boost 3 stats with items. You could have a couple stats over 24.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, they made sure that wasn't happening here. Just +2 to 4 stats of your choice at each level.


Right - but why nerf it so hard in PF2 compared to Starfinder? High-fantasy characters should be stronger than space opera characters.


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There is being an incomprehension. Sherlock is talking about items, and specifically abount items with the "potent" attributes, aka stat-boosts. Not the level based stat improvements.
And bte, I do agree with you OP


Having 3 items being mandatory, 2 of which is your armor and weapon, feels better than having 5, 3 of which are stat boosts.


I'd rather have potent items go away completely. I hate both their theming and mechanics, and see them only as a detriment to the game.

I hate their theming because it makes a character's innate abilities reliant on external items ("I'm stronger/smarter than other people because of my bling rather than because of me.")

I hate their mechanics because they quickly become mandatory items that the rest of the game has to be based around. Even with them getting pushed back to 14th level items - I have zero doubt that the PF2 meta will quickly adapt to saying characters must attempt to get their primary stat's item as soon as possible (badgering the GM if necessary), just because any type of stat increase is so powerful and impacts so many things.


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In PF1, I usually have two stats at 24+ by the low teens (one physical and one mental), so the stat boosts, whether from items or inherent bonuses, in PF2 seem pretty bad in comparison... (You can have one, and only one, stat at 24 max at level 20, and only if you boost that stat every chance you get)

Grand Lodge

Ah, now I see my confusion.

I believe one of the Devs, I'd have to go and look, said that it was because the new math for the game doesn't work the same.

The new system is partially meant to restrain the out of control numbers (I have seen a +60 on a 5th level character) from the original, and still have them be competitive with the critters to be faced. You no longer NEED those larger numbers, and if you got them you would throw the system out of alignment.


Culach wrote:

Ah, now I see my confusion.

I believe one of the Devs, I'd have to go and look, said that it was because the new math for the game doesn't work the same.

The new system is partially meant to restrain the out of control numbers (I have seen a +60 on a 5th level character) from the original, and still have them be competitive with the critters to be faced. You no longer NEED those larger numbers, and if you got them you would throw the system out of alignment.

You do need those numbers though. A fully optimized fighter can only hit about 2/3 of the time on his first strike against an equal level target (even worse for other classes). Missing that frequently isn't much fun, especially when enemies can take so many hits.

I prefer my characters succeeding at 95% odds on the first couple of iteratives, with only the later ones having a chance of missing beyond a nat 1. Same for skills; if it's a skill you really specialize in, I prefer having almost complete assurance of success for level-appropriate tasks, instead of only about 50%. It's really unfun.


sherlock1701 wrote:
Culach wrote:

Ah, now I see my confusion.

I believe one of the Devs, I'd have to go and look, said that it was because the new math for the game doesn't work the same.

The new system is partially meant to restrain the out of control numbers (I have seen a +60 on a 5th level character) from the original, and still have them be competitive with the critters to be faced. You no longer NEED those larger numbers, and if you got them you would throw the system out of alignment.

You do need those numbers though. A fully optimized fighter can only hit about 2/3 of the time on his first strike against an equal level target (even worse for other classes). Missing that frequently isn't much fun, especially when enemies can take so many hits.

I prefer my characters succeeding at 95% odds on the first couple of iteratives, with only the later ones having a chance of missing beyond a nat 1. Same for skills; if it's a skill you really specialize in, I prefer having almost complete assurance of success for level-appropriate tasks, instead of only about 50%. It's really unfun.

The whole system will require redesign to alter hit chances that far away from 60%

Shields,buffs, conditions etc are all made on the assumption that they offer a substantial increase (going from 60 to 70 as an example is a 17% increase in hit rate and 100% increase in crit rate. Going from 80 to 90 is just a 12.5% hit and 33% crit increase)


shroudb wrote:
sherlock1701 wrote:
Culach wrote:

Ah, now I see my confusion.

I believe one of the Devs, I'd have to go and look, said that it was because the new math for the game doesn't work the same.

The new system is partially meant to restrain the out of control numbers (I have seen a +60 on a 5th level character) from the original, and still have them be competitive with the critters to be faced. You no longer NEED those larger numbers, and if you got them you would throw the system out of alignment.

You do need those numbers though. A fully optimized fighter can only hit about 2/3 of the time on his first strike against an equal level target (even worse for other classes). Missing that frequently isn't much fun, especially when enemies can take so many hits.

I prefer my characters succeeding at 95% odds on the first couple of iteratives, with only the later ones having a chance of missing beyond a nat 1. Same for skills; if it's a skill you really specialize in, I prefer having almost complete assurance of success for level-appropriate tasks, instead of only about 50%. It's really unfun.

The whole system will require redesign to alter hit chances that far away from 60%

Shields,buffs, conditions etc are all made on the assumption that they offer a substantial increase (going from 60 to 70 as an example is a 17% increase in hit rate and 100% increase in crit rate. Going from 80 to 90 is just a 12.5% hit and 33% crit increase)

If you adjusted the proficiency numbers to -4, 0, +2,+4, +6, it would work out nicely. Untrained characters would be significantly worse at skills than masters/legends of their trade, and those with training would have an additional 5% per tier, to cap out at 15%.

This changes the average success rate from 50-65% to 65-80%. It's not perfect, but it would be a lot closer.

Alternatively, let attributes scale 2-3 points higher; it would have a similar effect.

In either case, those 10% boosts are still significant.


sherlock1701 wrote:
shroudb wrote:
sherlock1701 wrote:
Culach wrote:

Ah, now I see my confusion.

I believe one of the Devs, I'd have to go and look, said that it was because the new math for the game doesn't work the same.

The new system is partially meant to restrain the out of control numbers (I have seen a +60 on a 5th level character) from the original, and still have them be competitive with the critters to be faced. You no longer NEED those larger numbers, and if you got them you would throw the system out of alignment.

You do need those numbers though. A fully optimized fighter can only hit about 2/3 of the time on his first strike against an equal level target (even worse for other classes). Missing that frequently isn't much fun, especially when enemies can take so many hits.

I prefer my characters succeeding at 95% odds on the first couple of iteratives, with only the later ones having a chance of missing beyond a nat 1. Same for skills; if it's a skill you really specialize in, I prefer having almost complete assurance of success for level-appropriate tasks, instead of only about 50%. It's really unfun.

The whole system will require redesign to alter hit chances that far away from 60%

Shields,buffs, conditions etc are all made on the assumption that they offer a substantial increase (going from 60 to 70 as an example is a 17% increase in hit rate and 100% increase in crit rate. Going from 80 to 90 is just a 12.5% hit and 33% crit increase)

If you adjusted the proficiency numbers to -4, 0, +2,+4, +6, it would work out nicely. Untrained characters would be significantly worse at skills than masters/legends of their trade, and those with training would have an additional 5% per tier, to cap out at 15%.

This changes the average success rate from 50-65% to 65-80%. It's not perfect, but it would be a lot closer.

Alternatively, let attributes scale 2-3 points higher; it would have a similar effect.

In either case, those 10% boosts are still significant.

They are half as significant.

That is what redesign means.

Why bother with a shield if it gives just 12% and less than a third crit reduction for an action that can be a full hit (as opposed to 17% and halving the criteria you receive)
Why bother with a bard if he's just giving +1-2. So let's give him +2-4 to be as impactful.
And then the number inflation starts, and then you have to build all over.

Bounded accuracy cannot work with starting 80% chances.
At top you can go 60%

If you want 80% you have to abandon bounded accuracy, so you need to remake the whole system.


So abandon bounded accuracy. It's not fun anyway.

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