# That CR 0 pit trap is a DOOZY

### Running the Game

I just ran The Rose Street Revenge.

The Hidden Pit in Dragons darn near ended things. Reading it again, it is possible that I did something wrong.

The PCs failed their perception checks so Fazgyn told them about the trap. They then made the Thievery check to remove the trap door.

I then (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that the pit covered the entire tunnel. Crossing the pit then became absurdly hard for Level 1 characters (see below).

If it does NOT cover the entire corridor then I don't understand why a Thievery check is necessary to disable it. Perceive it, just walk around it.

If the thievery check just makes the pit obvious then presumably the PCs have to cross it.

Unfortunately, it is now a 15 foot jump to cross a 10 foot long pit.

So, athletics check of DC 20 to jump the pit. Even the PC trained in athletics with a high strength needed to roll a 15 on the dice.

So, climb into and out of the pit. DC of Who Knows (i arbitrarily assumed it was a Hard Level 0 so DC 12) Requiring 4 consecutive successes.

The DC for a long jump is distance + 5, so to leap over a 10 foot pit is DC 15 Athletics, not DC 20.

The question then becomes, if a character fails the jump what is the DC to use the Grab Edge reaction? I'd be inclided to set it as Low difficulty (DC 10 for level 1 characters in table 10-2).

The DC for a long jump is distance + 5, so to leap over a 10 foot pit is DC 15 Athletics, not DC 20.

The question then becomes, if a character fails the jump what is the DC to use the Grab Edge reaction? I'd be inclided to set it as Low difficulty (DC 10 for level 1 characters in table 10-2).

Nope. If you look at the leap action it is now a 15 ft jump to clear a 10ft pit. So the DC to jump over a 10ft pit is 20.

This is a change from PF1

Seems like if you can't get your DC-less LEAP action then you have to use Athletics. Which gives you DC = distance +5.

So a 10ft pit is a DC 15 long jump attempt.

Or a DC 20 attempt if you read the leap description 'you land in the space where your leap ends' as 'always add 5 feet to the length of your leap'.

Quote:

LEAP
You take a careful but short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap if your Speed is between 15 feet and 30 feet, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more).
Jumping a greater distance requires using the Athletics skill (see pages 146-147)."

And then from Athletics:

Quote:

LONG JUMP (athletics)
You Stride, and if you move at least 10 feet, roll an Athletics check in an attempt to Leap horizontally in the same direction. The DC of the check is equal to 5 plus the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so Leaping 20 feet would require a DC 25 check)

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I just let the rogue disable the trap to locked-closed once I noticed the jump issue.

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I'm pretty sure we climbed down and then up the other side when I played.

Oh lord, here we go again. Does the distance to leap include the square you intend to land in, or the distance you intend to leap over? That's the real question here for is it a "DC 15 or 20?". Since this intended to be a 1st level challenge I would say it's probably meant oto be a DC 15, and that you don't include the additional square you're landing in. But it could use clarification.

But climbing down and backup is probably the easiest way to handle it. A little bit of rope is all you need.

Leap wrote:
You take a careful but short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap if your Speed is between 15 feet and 30 feet, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more).
Long Jump wrote:
You Stride, and if you move at least 10 feet, roll an Athletics check in an attempt to Leap horizontally in the same direction. The DC of the check is equal to 5 plus the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so Leaping 20 feet would require a DC 25 check). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.

Seems like you have to jump 15 feet to clear a 10 ft. pit, so the DC would be 20. Of course, you could just rope down, have the strongest person climb up the other side, then have them help everyone up.

The trap says Thievery to remove the door but the paragraph just above that says Fazgyn tells them to jam the trapdoor closed. I can see how that might be confusing.

We just slapped a 2x4 over the hole and moved on.

Ouranou wrote:

We just slapped a 2x4 over the hole and moved on.

Genius. Give those players some XP!

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I feel like they're trolling the people who posted on the interminable "What is the DC to jump over a 10-foot pit?" PF1 thread...

"You can Leap... up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You can typically clear... a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more. Jumping a greater distance requires using the Athletics skill"

Jumping a 10-foot pit is the same as clearing a 10-foot gap, so you don't need to make a check or use Long Jump to do it as long as you're moving at 30-foot+ speed. If your speed is slower, it's probably a DC 20 check.

I'm advocating for a DC 15, because the distance you intend to jump over is 10 feet, even if you intend to move a total of 15 ft. The actual distance you "leap over" is the 10 ft.

Matthew Downie wrote:

I feel like they're trolling the people who posted on the interminable "What is the DC to jump over a 10-foot pit?" PF1 thread...

They've also pretty explicitly changed their mind on how far you have to jump to clear a 10 foot pit :-(. Which, combined with characters only moving 25 ft by default makes a 10 ft pit a SERIOUS obstacle at low levels.

Not sure if that was intentional or not. Given that the 10 foot pit trap is listed as a Level 0 trap I'm suspecting it was NOT intentional.

The pit trap is FAR more dangerous now. Even AFTER you notice it.

Also, RAW, Climbing is a long, long way from trivial. Even with ropes. It ALSO got considerably worse in PF2.

Claxon wrote:
I'm advocating for a DC 15, because the distance you intend to jump over is 10 feet, even if you intend to move a total of 15 ft. The actual distance you "leap over" is the 10 ft.

Given that step from one square to another moves one 5' (with a jump distance of 0), I think that's pretty clearly the case. I'm sure someone will argue, though...

Ouranou wrote:

The trap says Thievery to remove the door but the paragraph just above that says Fazgyn tells them to jam the trapdoor closed. I can see how that might be confusing.

We just slapped a 2x4 over the hole and moved on.

I'd probably have advocated a similar thing--but as this is a playtest I do see the merit of examining this kind of stuff.

Namely, how heroic a game do we want Pathfinder to be? I remember in a P1 game we played I had an elf with a grappling hook assaulting a castle. The plan was, I scale the wall once the guards had passed out of sight to take them out so the rest of my party who would be giving me crossbow support from the bushes would then scoot out and climb up the wall.

I throw the hook *crappy roll* the hook tinks off and tumbles down. The guards roll to notice. I throw again *less crappy, but still not doing it roll* more noise and another roll to notice. Third time, by now the other PCs think my guy is a moron and scatter to go come up with their own plans *not bad roll, but still fails* the hook tumbles down and now a guard notices and the castle gets put on alert.

I'm not saying these sorts of things are impossible, or that climbing castle walls isn't hard, but I do want to maybe talk about are there times when we might not need to roll every single thing because it makes otherwise cool, competent characters look like idiots. Like people hurt themselves walking down stairs or opening doors--it can happen, but generally this isn't what typical fantasy adventure games are about. Like no one tells the epic tale of Zaliaster the rogue who tried to climb some stairs one time and failed and fell off a castle wall and landed on a rack of spears and died. Like, can we just not?

Like if there's a hole in the ground, the PCs have disarmed the trap are under no other threat, could we maybe not make them have to roll not to look stupid and kill themselves in the most Darwin Awards way possible, and just say they carefully bypass it?

Grimcleaver wrote:
Namely, how heroic a game do we want Pathfinder to be?

The PF2 rules seem to be saying: heroic, but only at high level.

In PF1, only people who specialised were good at climbing ropes. In PF2, everyone becomes an expert eventually.

isn't there already a "grab the edge" action?

i would say jumping 10' will put you just in the edge, allowing you to try to grab it, and jumping 15 is enough to fully clear it and land the full 15' away that is required.

shroudb wrote:

isn't there already a "grab the edge" action?

i would say jumping 10' will put you just in the edge, allowing you to try to grab it, and jumping 15 is enough to fully clear it and land the full 15' away that is required.

Nope, strongly disagree. At worst I would accept a DC 16, which would allow you to jump 11 ft. Nothing says you have to leap in 5ft increments.

Even that I don't think is right. The rules reference the distance to be leapt over. That distance is 10ft in this case. The extra +5 is to ensure you stably land on the other side and not right on the edge to slip and fall in.